The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Rkolter on Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:26 am

Tellurider wrote:Besides it's not like you're required to fill out the entire ballot. I don't know how things are with what's on the ballot and stuff where you live but you should at least make sure they're not trying to pass some resolution that makes you go "aw HELLS no"


Telly,

Do you remember how in Florida, they got down to trying to determine "Who you intended to vote for"? They went as far as looking at dimpled ballots - where you may have rested your stylus on one candidate or another for a bit.

I think if you don't fill out the whole ballot and your state is close, you may run the risk of someone trying to decide who you wanted to vote for. :-?
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Mercury Hat on Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:32 am

Killbert-Robby wrote:You Westerners do college WAY different.
England : "Hey Robby why not come stay in my dorm room for like a week, its cool, yeah we're just having a rowdy happy time. Look, keg party! This is awesome! Oh ho ho ho paintball war in the hallway, isnt this just awesome!"
Centennial : "Only cans of beer allowed. No decoration on windows. All visitors must sign in and out. No smoking. Room inspection biweekly. No visitor sign-ins after 2am. All visitors must be gone by 4am. Any visitors still around will cost you a $5 overnight fee. Bring your own shower curtain."
Residence is supposed to be "The place to be", but the handbook and guide make it all look a little sterile <_<

We could have overnight visitors of the same sex in my dorm.

But we couldn't have alcohol, period. Didn't matter how old you were. Not that it kept anyone from having it, mind you.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Killbert-Robby on Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:38 am

Oh yeah I'm sure the rules and what actually happens are way off, so I'm waiting til, you know, prime-time-Canada-time and I'll see if I can hunt down some other peoples in residence <_<
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby KWill on Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:44 am

Heh, reminds me of the family of Ghanans that were illegally living across from me back during my first few years at uni...
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Mercury Hat on Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:00 am

Dr Legostar wrote:I'm with Mv, i can't bring myself to vote for either candidate (anyone telling me there's more than two is fooling themselves). and I'm allowed (as is she) to complain no matter who is elected, seeing as I'm planning on complaining either way, and it is a free country, that in itself gives us the right to complain, not whether we vote or not. And for the record, it's not that I'm in Canada that has kept me from voting, because Amanda voted.

It's silly to say you can't complain about who gets elected. Not only because of what lego says, but because by choosing not to vote you are saying "I don't approve/choose either of the two candidates and their policies."

If someone you don't agree with is elected, you have a right to publicly disagree with them. Whether you voted for or against them or even at all isn't and shouldn't be a factor.

Not voting out of apathy is one thing but choosing not to vote is a valid choice, it's representative of your opinion and it's an opinion that isn't wiped out the minute the guy's sworn in.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Mvmarcz on Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:16 am

Mercury Hat wrote:
Dr Legostar wrote:I'm with Mv, i can't bring myself to vote for either candidate (anyone telling me there's more than two is fooling themselves). and I'm allowed (as is she) to complain no matter who is elected, seeing as I'm planning on complaining either way, and it is a free country, that in itself gives us the right to complain, not whether we vote or not. And for the record, it's not that I'm in Canada that has kept me from voting, because Amanda voted.

It's silly to say you can't complain about who gets elected. Not only because of what lego says, but because by choosing not to vote you are saying "I don't approve/choose either of the two candidates and their policies."

If someone you don't agree with is elected, you have a right to publicly disagree with them. Whether you voted for or against them or even at all isn't and shouldn't be a factor.

Not voting out of apathy is one thing but choosing not to vote is a valid choice, it's representative of your opinion and it's an opinion that isn't wiped out the minute the guy's sworn in.



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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Rkolter on Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:43 am

Mercury Hat wrote:It's silly to say you can't complain about who gets elected. Not only because of what lego says, but because by choosing not to vote you are saying "I don't approve/choose either of the two candidates and their policies."


Find me a group that would agree that, having given you the chance to participate and you refusing to participate, would then say you have the right to criticize the choice they made made absent your participation.

If you don't vote, the ramification of not voting is that you don't get to complain that one person won instead of the other. You lose the right to complain about the choice you chose not to participate in making.

Mercury Hat wrote: If someone you don't agree with is elected, you have a right to publicly disagree with them. Whether you voted for or against them or even at all isn't and shouldn't be a factor.


Hooooooold on. I didn't say she didn't have the right to publically disagree with the person who got elected. Just that she didn't have the right to complain about the choice made for president. Whomever is elected is still the President of the United States and can still be complained about. She took herself out of the voting process, and so shouldn't complain about one being elected instead of the other. She didn't take herself out of being an American and I never said otherwise.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Tim on Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:44 am

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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Prettysenshi on Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:49 am

If you don't like those who are running, then don't vote. Doesn't seem complicated.

I personally rather have someone choose not to vote than throw away their vote to just anyone. Voting is very important, and I respect those that withhold that right from someone they don't support, than to just take the entire process so lightly and just throw their vote to whomever.

I hope that came out right.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Killbert-Robby on Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:51 am

But of course she can complain about who got voted in, whether or not she voted, because either way its against her political will. You can't say "Well if you didn't want Obama to win you should have voted McCain" because she didnt want HIM to win either.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Prettysenshi on Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:52 am

Killbert-Robby wrote:But of course she can complain about who got voted in, whether or not she voted, because either way its against her political will. You can't say "Well if you didn't want Obama to win you should have voted McCain" because she didnt want HIM to win either.


yay reason!!
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Rkolter on Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:08 am

If you are given the chance to participate, and CHOOSE NOT TO, then you relinquish your right to complain about the decision those who do participate make.

It's not the same as being apathetic - and thinking about it and choosing not to vote is a clear choice. But you don't get to cheer for a good decision, and you don't get to complain for a bad one.

Complain about the president, but don't look back with hindsight six months from now and wish we'd gone for the other guy. That's all I'm asking.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Keffria on Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:25 am

It's okay not to vote if you've made an informed decision to refrain; if you've bothered to research the different platforms and concluded that no one is able to represent you, it's kind of sad, but hardly your fault, and damned right you can complain about the person who ends up in office when they screw things up. It's the apathetic people who annoy me.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Dr Legostar on Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:06 am

Rkolter wrote:
Mercury Hat wrote:It's silly to say you can't complain about who gets elected. Not only because of what lego says, but because by choosing not to vote you are saying "I don't approve/choose either of the two candidates and their policies."


Find me a group that would agree that, having given you the chance to participate and you refusing to participate, would then say you have the right to criticize the choice they made made absent your participation.


a group.. hmm.. let's see, apparently me, Mv, and Merc.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Yeahduff on Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:36 am

Mvmarcz wrote: I don't believe in throwing my vote away.


Apparently you do.

Merc, Lego, and I are taking Mv out for her birthday. Mv wants to go to either the country-western bar or the faux Irish pub in Wrigleyville. Lego and Merc say whichever, but I muse that I can get drunk at either and both will be full of tools but I'll probably like at least a few songs at the jock pub. So we go there. We all hate it, of course. If Lego and Merc complain about the tools and the Top 40/cheesy 80's/classic rock soundtrack, then I'm right there with them. But if Lego complains they don't have peanuts like they do at the other place and Merc has a strange thing for dudes in cowboy hats, I say what the fuck.

If you voted in the primaries, if you've been active in your community, if you've been writing your congressperson, if you've been writing letters to the editor, maybe it's OK not to vote. But if you're just showing up to the party and saying "These candidates don't capture my imagination," well, of course they haven't, because you haven't involved yourself in the process, and now you're continuing your disengagement.

Of course you have the right to complain, it just doesn't mean as much.

Chances are there are things about one of the candidates that you like that are more important to you than the other. One's gonna win, may as well do what you can to make him win. And whatever you mean by it, your not voting doesn't translate to dissatisfaction, it translates to apathy. Vote third party or write in Barney Rubble's Ass if you want your disapproval to be heard. Otherwise you're just insuring your disapproval goes unheard.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Yeahduff on Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:15 am

Also, I invite you non-voters to post in my political thread. It's called "The Freakish Size of Nancy Reagan's Head," and it's designed expressly for mature objective discourse.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby McDuffies on Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:34 am

Mvmarcz wrote:
Mercury Hat wrote:
Dr Legostar wrote:I'm with Mv, i can't bring myself to vote for either candidate (anyone telling me there's more than two is fooling themselves). and I'm allowed (as is she) to complain no matter who is elected, seeing as I'm planning on complaining either way, and it is a free country, that in itself gives us the right to complain, not whether we vote or not. And for the record, it's not that I'm in Canada that has kept me from voting, because Amanda voted.

It's silly to say you can't complain about who gets elected. Not only because of what lego says, but because by choosing not to vote you are saying "I don't approve/choose either of the two candidates and their policies."

If someone you don't agree with is elected, you have a right to publicly disagree with them. Whether you voted for or against them or even at all isn't and shouldn't be a factor.

Not voting out of apathy is one thing but choosing not to vote is a valid choice, it's representative of your opinion and it's an opinion that isn't wiped out the minute the guy's sworn in.



THANK YOU


I am 100% with Rkolter on this one.
If you try to do something, you may be destined to fail. But if you don't try, you fail for sure. You may not like any candidate, but undoubtly you think that one of them is a little less bad - and then you can't know for sure how they'll govern until you see it.
Not voting because you don't like any candidate is pure and simple defetism. Of course, noone can stop you from complaining about who won afterwards, but if you didn't vote, that only makes your complains a lot of hot air, like a person who complains about failing at something he didn't even try to do.

But I'm not speaking only in theory. Do you think that we believed that we had any chance of bringing Milosevic down in 2000, after several unsuccessful attempts prior to that? But we had to try anyway and we somehow succeeded.

But you can look at it this way too: if you don't actually vote, you are still implicitely voting. A candidate needs 51% of people who voted, not of entire popularion. It is assumed that non-voters would vote in same percentages if they voted. So implicitely you are voting, only this time you aren't deciding for whom you vote.
If you had something to achieve by not voting, that would be a different issue. If, say, 51% of people didn't vote, and as a result, your country run without president/parliament/whatever. But you don't achieve anything.
Furthermore, if you went out and filled invalid vote form, that might add up to something. A mass of invalid votes may be interpreted as dissatisfaction. A mass of people who never got out to vote, will be more likely interpreted as lack of interest in politics, or even laziness.

However, I'm all for people who don't know much about politics not voting. It is better not to vote, than to go out and vote for someone because you liked how he dresses or because someone told you to. However, we all know that people who don't understand politics or have blatantly simplified view at it, are much more likely to vote.

Sure, not voting is your personal choice, but that doesn't mean it's a good choice. As much as you hate to hear it, people who nag you to vote are right as long as they don't nag you to vote for their candidate.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Dr Legostar on Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:23 am

the way i felt after the 2000 elections where it became clear that the outcome of the popular vote and the outcome of the election were two different things was disheartening, and in the 2004 elections i did vote, and it made me feel sick voting for the lesser of two evils. Third party candidates, write in votes, having a voice, all of these things sound wonderful in theory, I honestly don't believe that what I think and what I have to say matters, which is exactly why I feel I can complain no matter what, because no matter what, what I have to say means nothing at all.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Killbert-Robby on Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:49 am

"I'm going to sell out ethically and politically to vote for someone who I don't want running my country because he's (marginally) the lesser of two shitbags, so I can justify myself bitching about the other guy when he's in office"
The essence of democracy?

Maybe not voting doesn't stop one of the two people going into office. However, it's her *right* to vote, and much like the right to bear arms, or for women to work, an *option*, why would she have to voice her support for someone she does not support? "Just vote for the lesser of two evils". No. Vote for the person who you want running the country. It's like deciding if you'd rather have a kick in your teeth or nads.

I wouldn't call this throwing away her vote. Throwing away her vote is helping a guy she doesn't want in office to get there, defeating the purpose of democracy.
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Re: The Official Livejournal Substitute Thread!

Postby Yeahduff on Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:06 am

2000 was a frustrating experience for everyone. But it shows how much individual votes mean. It can be argued that 3rd party voters determined the outcome, letting their dissatisfaction be heard, displayed at the bottom of the screen on each state tally.

Politicians like to keep the numbers down. The less likely you are to vote, the less likely you are to be politically engaged, the less likely you are to be paying attention, the less likely you are to hold anyone accountable. If nothing else, use your vote as approval or disapproval of the previous administration, or of each campaign. In the end your vote may be very important.
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