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It's been a while.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:49 am
by John Greenhill
'Champions' is getting better all the time. I find myself liking it these days. But it's still a Mary Sue off a game.

Hello. I'm a long-time fan of Patchwork Heroes, John G. I once advocated that Friv drop the 'behind the scenes' because I loved the main story so much.

It's been a year or more now, maybe 2 years since Patchwork Champions started. I just wanted to say that to me, and some others, Patchwork Heroes was a unique work of greatness that few will find and understand but nevertheless will remain one of the most exquisite comics ever to grace the web.

Please, please, please make a sequel.

While I may be wrong to guess at this:
Patchwork Champions while an honest and dedicated work is a Mary Sue, dependant on the established and narrow genre of superhero comics and the flash-in-the-pan, City of Heroes. The artwork consists of default facial expressions set on smile, always in profile, the sprites lack the blurred feel and colors of the earlier generation. While 'Order of Thorns' (I don't quite remember the name) had story but the same art, Patcwork Champions has consisted mainly of crude jokes and villains for a while... I haven't been reading for the last few months, I assume the plot is getting somewhere, that literary value is being created.

Please don't take this as an offence. My lonely opinion is that Champions has some value but is... well, it's a Mary Sue and not a good one at that, though it's been trying hard lately and might be getting out of the rut.

Patcwork Heroes had a story to tell... it was a ruby, red in the light of an epic tale on a local scale - the fire in the eyes of a tale so true.

'Roses' was a slice of life and it moved slower, perhaps it would be easier to do it in the old art? It might take forever, like a novel, but.... please?

I made a new account to say this, I didn't want to, but... I felt it had to be done.
I'm sorry and good luck, whatever you choose.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:43 am
by Tinkerbell
Just for the record, to dismiss Champions as 'a Mary Sue and a bad one at that' is uneccessarily harsh. You're entitled to your opinion, but I think here you're actually being factually inaccurate. There's always been a plot, and yes, the jokes might have been a little cheaper than in 'Heroes', but they were still funny. In fact, right from the start (the grenades vs. lasers question, anyone?), the humour's been a cut above the web average.

Besides, in what way is this a Mary Sue comic? Which character is the Mary Sue? Yes, there's a loose connection to City of Heroes, but then I vaguely remember noticing distinct connections between Patchwork Heroes and... I think it was the Warcraft setting (not one I know very well, I'll admit). And 'narrow genre of superhero comics'? A genre that encompasses everything from Indefensible Positions and The Invisibles through Batman and the Punisher to Superman and Spiderman is no narrower than the swords-and-sorcery genre of which Patchwork Heroes was a staple.

And you're right in anticipating that the plot has developed somewhat since you stopped reading; maybe you should catch up before criticising?


PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:39 am
by Kasaii
First, welcome back Mr. Greenhill. Always glad to hear from an old fan. :) And I'm always happy to hear criticisms - I feel that if people care enough to complain, I've already hooked them somewhere. ;)

Now, onto the meat of the contentions.

When I sat down to construct the long-term plot of Patchwork Champions, I had a specific goal in mind - to create a comic-book style series of plot arcs, wherein each plot arc contributed to the overall developping plot, while also managing to stand on its own if need be. That meant more short-term stories and fewer vast plots, and a definate move away from the epic nature of Heroes. Frankly, epic is a crutch. Vast world-changing events are actually easier than making smaller things matter. Champions is going to have its share of epic (the current 'epic' is the Antihero plot), but I'm trying to keep most of it more personal for those involved. Obviously, this creates a very different feel from Heroes, which was world-shaking, and from what I was attempting to do with Thorns, where the cast was swept up in events beyond their control.

As far as Mary-Sueism, I would counter-contend that Heroes was about a Mary Sue far more than Champions. I mean, Dana was an amnesiac super-soldier with a tragic past and mysterious heritage whom half the male cast loved and whose strange connections proved key to solving a massive problem. I'm a little embarrassed at how heavily I relied on Dana every time I had a plot problem that needed resolving.

Patchwork Champions does owe its origin to the Marvel and DC superhero comics of today, but in much the same way that Patchwork Heroes owed its origins to the grand epic fantasies from which it drew its artwork.

Finally, I would argue that Champions has a more diverse scene-setting than Heroes did; the only real difference was that with Heroes I could go with any pose that had already been created by someone else, while I am now using my own sprites and thus both more and less constricted - I am limited by my own capabilities, but no longer dependant on what others may have decided to do in the past.

Some day, I may finish Order of Thorns; every time that I've tried, the plot has defeated me, and I'm still trying to figure out how best to tell that story, because I do think it's a story worth telling. But it won't be in comic form, and in the mean time, that world is in hibernation.

If you prefer my epic tales, I have been practicing my writing by doing a series of short stories set in the world of White Wolf's Exalted. Dunno if you know the setting, but you could always see if it's more to your liking: ... php?t=2462

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:46 am
by John Greenhill
I'll make a full reply in time. :) I'm sorry, very busy right now. I'm glad to see the comic is getting better and better.

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 10:54 am
by Sian
When Champions first started, I was pretty dissapointed, though I was pretty dissapointed when Heroes was over (not because of a bad ending, in fact it was great, but because it was over).

Since then, though, I've really began (begun?) to enjoy Champions. I don't hover around the forums much, but I still check the site every day.

I don't think a sequel to Heroes would really be a good idea, at least not with the same characters. It's concluded, you know. But hey, I'm not the final word on the topic, and Patchwork Heroes convinced me to trust in Yeti's creative genius.

I do miss the backstage goodness, though.

(Oh, yeah, that reminds me, the opening line of our Valedictorian's graduation speech this year is "Sorry, guys, I just lost." Look what you've done to us.)

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 7:46 pm
by Kasaii
Yeah, some joker went and linked to that comic on

Every time I check my referrals, I lose. :ick: