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How It All Ends - an extremely compelling, plainly spoken, impassioned, and deliberate argument in favour of doing something to avert the threat of abrupt global climate change, from a high school physics teacher in Oregon.

Now, he seems to be arguing from authority here, but I think you'll find that it's a very effective way to speak to the common person, since the fundamental science has been explained so many times, from so many sources (not the least of which is Al Gore in his Inconvenient Truth documentary), to so many audiences, that I'm sure further explanation would probably flow in through one ear and out the other.

Personally, as I advance higher in my studies as an atmospheric science major, it becomes increasingly clear, and increasingly worrying to me, that catastrophic global climate change may be not only inevitable, but occur at a far faster pace than I'd previously expected. We, as a species, are starting to run through a climatic minefield...

Fortunately, he provides an amazingly simple and inspiring message of hope, a solution, in his expansion videos entitled "The Solution", as to how we can fix this problem. I think it'd do everyone a lot of good to watch these.

Additionally, he kind of reminds me of Rkolter, insofar as he explains a whole lot of science in a very clear and enthusiastic way!

@~[AOD]

I'm pretty opinionated on the issue, so I'll clam up, but I will say that yes, everything the guy says is true. Its a logic thing. But I still dont *agree* with him.

Killbert-Robby wrote:Its a logic thing. But I still dont *agree* with him.

Hmm, why is that? Is it that you don't think that human beings are causing climate change? Or is it something else?

?~[AOD]

In conclusion, Kilbert-Robby doesn't agree with truth and logic. But he doesn't care because he doesn't agree with this conclusion.

McDuffies wrote:In conclusion, Kilbert-Robby doesn't agree with truth and logic. But he doesn't care because he doesn't agree with this conclusion.

I agree with the truth and logic. I said, straight up, that he's right. But drastically changing humanity goes beyond drawing on a white board.
First off : I believe in global warming. Its happening. It's undeniable. The world is getting hotter.

Second : I believe this is a force of nature. Thank fuck for global warming, otherwise we'd probably still be in caves in the frozen tundra of Germany hunting mammoth.

Third : I believe that thinking mankind has the impact to be able to alter global patterns is arrogant of us, as a species. This applies to both the theories that we're causing global warming, and to the theory than we can stop it.

Fourth : Ok, everyone, swap over to hybrid cars. Invest money in alternative power sources. Build solar boilers on your roof. Trying to stop global warming wouldn't cause a recession. It would cause the lower middle class to lower class to go bankrupt. Yes, gas is expensive. It may be a better investment to get a hybrid. But hybrids are expensive. Oh well. Maybe they can sell their car to get money to get a hybrid. Oh wait. Nobody wants cars. Because we're talking about the fairy tale "LETS ALL GO GREEN" society this guy wants. Meanwhile, the fat cats STAY fat cats.

Global warming is real. It is, no matter how you look at it, a force of nature. We can't stop hurricanes. We can't stop earthquakes. We cant stop *it*. The guy does make a complex issue very simple. However, he makes it TOO simple. Novel concept. If stopping global warming was so simple a college professor with a YouTube account could crack it, I like to think we'd already be doing something about it. But, unfortunately, we're dealing with a force we don't understand, coupled with the turbulent waters of human society, and even psychology on an individual basis, followed with less complicated global economics, politics, yada yada yada.

Killbert-Robby wrote: Third : I believe that thinking mankind has the impact to be able to alter global patterns is arrogant of us, as a species. This applies to both the theories that we're causing global warming, and to the theory than we can stop it.

Ian Malcolm said something similar in Jurassic Park (as in the whole "Humans do not have the power to change the earth or even wipe all life from it forever.") I agree with this. Like it or not, things happen without human influence.

Killbert-Robby wrote: Novel concept. If stopping global warming was so simple a college professor with a YouTube account could crack it, I like to think we'd already be doing something about it. But, unfortunately, we're dealing with a force we don't understand, coupled with the turbulent waters of human society, and even psychology on an individual basis, followed with less complicated global economics, politics, yada yada yada.

You probably should have paid closer attention to the guy, as he admits himself that he is making the issue extremely simple ("The smiley faces give that away.") All he's doing is measuring the risks (again, grossly simplified.)
In my opinion, humanity needs to focus less on saving the planet and more on what needs to be done to make sure WE survive the upcoming change. Earth did fine without us for a couple million years, it'll be fine whether we live or go extinct like so many species before us. I have no idea what can actually be done (still in highschool, planning on an arts career) but I can at least supply these thoughts.

Killbert-Robby wrote:

McDuffies wrote:In conclusion, Kilbert-Robby doesn't agree with truth and logic. But he doesn't care because he doesn't agree with this conclusion.

I agree with the truth and logic. I said, straight up, that he's right. But drastically changing humanity goes beyond drawing on a white board.
First off : I believe in global warming. Its happening. It's undeniable. The world is getting hotter.

Second : I believe this is a force of nature. Thank fuck for global warming, otherwise we'd probably still be in caves in the frozen tundra of Germany hunting mammoth.

Third : I believe that thinking mankind has the impact to be able to alter global patterns is arrogant of us, as a species. This applies to both the theories that we're causing global warming, and to the theory than we can stop it.

Fourth : Ok, everyone, swap over to hybrid cars. Invest money in alternative power sources. Build solar boilers on your roof. Trying to stop global warming wouldn't cause a recession. It would cause the lower middle class to lower class to go bankrupt. Yes, gas is expensive. It may be a better investment to get a hybrid. But hybrids are expensive. Oh well. Maybe they can sell their car to get money to get a hybrid. Oh wait. Nobody wants cars. Because we're talking about the fairy tale "LETS ALL GO GREEN" society this guy wants. Meanwhile, the fat cats STAY fat cats.

Global warming is real. It is, no matter how you look at it, a force of nature. We can't stop hurricanes. We can't stop earthquakes. We cant stop *it*. The guy does make a complex issue very simple. However, he makes it TOO simple. Novel concept. If stopping global warming was so simple a college professor with a YouTube account could crack it, I like to think we'd already be doing something about it. But, unfortunately, we're dealing with a force we don't understand, coupled with the turbulent waters of human society, and even psychology on an individual basis, followed with less complicated global economics, politics, yada yada yada.

you sound a bit like me when I say I dont want to vote.

but then i do anyway, cos you dont know if it can make a difference until you try.

Killbert-Robby wrote:Fourth : Ok, everyone, swap over to hybrid cars. Invest money in alternative power sources. Build solar boilers on your roof. Trying to stop global warming wouldn't cause a recession. It would cause the lower middle class to lower class to go bankrupt. Yes, gas is expensive. It may be a better investment to get a hybrid. But hybrids are expensive. Oh well. Maybe they can sell their car to get money to get a hybrid. Oh wait. Nobody wants cars. Because we're talking about the fairy tale "LETS ALL GO GREEN" society this guy wants. Meanwhile, the fat cats STAY fat cats.

That's not how it works. They're trying to get people to buy these things so the price will drop and become more affordable. It's a cascade effect. The more you sell, the cheaper you can make them and the more you sell. It's just getting over that first hump which is hard - which is what they're trying for now with hybrids and solar power.

- Joel Fagin

Killbert-Robby wrote:stuff

I was just following the logical string of thought:

everything the guy says is true.

and

But I still dont *agree* with him.

equals: you don't agree with truth.

Similarly:

Its a logic thing.

and

But I still dont *agree* with him.

equals: you don't agree with logics.

But since my conclusion is based on logic, and you don't agree with logics, that equals, you don't agree with this conclusion either way. Which is also a kind of dead circle.

I don't care to discuss about this topic. Those things that you say do sound like elaborate rationalization to excuse simple laziness and oportunism, but I don't care to discuss that and that's not what my post was about anyways.

Killbert-Robby wrote:

McDuffies wrote:In conclusion, Kilbert-Robby doesn't agree with truth and logic. But he doesn't care because he doesn't agree with this conclusion.

I agree with the truth and logic. I said, straight up, that he's right. But drastically changing humanity goes beyond drawing on a white board.
First off : I believe in global warming. Its happening. It's undeniable. The world is getting hotter.

Second : I believe this is a force of nature. Thank fuck for global warming, otherwise we'd probably still be in caves in the frozen tundra of Germany hunting mammoth.

It's sort of obvious to most people that the climate changes from time to time, and that these changes are entirely natural. That's part of a natural process, of course. But it's interesting to note, as pictured in the graph below, that we seem to have been on a steady cooling trend since the Medieval Warm Period.



In fact, if human influences are subtracted from the equation, it appears that the current rates of global warming are unexplainable from any known natural influence.[1] (I can send you a PDF with the paper that evidences this if you like)

Third : I believe that thinking mankind has the impact to be able to alter global patterns is arrogant of us, as a species. This applies to both the theories that we're causing global warming, and to the theory than we can stop it.

Why is it arrogant? The resettling of a few kilos of snow or rock at the top of a mountain can trigger avalanches or landslides. Human society currently emits something around 2.7 gigatonnes of CO2 each year, comparable to a large volcano erupting each year, minus the huge volumes of sulphur dioxide and particulates that volcanoes typically emit during eruptions. This is significant, as it tends to compound in our atmosphere as the various sinks that should ordinarily keep the CO2 concentration stable become saturated -- or as we outright destroy them, such as in our destruction of rainforests.

Furthermore, small deviations in the balance of solar input, due to wobbles in the earth's orbit, over thousands and thousands of years, have been sufficient to push the climate like a wobbling top from interglacial to ice age. What is the true scale of humanity's influence over the climate?

Fourth : Ok, everyone, swap over to hybrid cars. Invest money in alternative power sources. Build solar boilers on your roof. Trying to stop global warming wouldn't cause a recession. It would cause the lower middle class to lower class to go bankrupt. Yes, gas is expensive. It may be a better investment to get a hybrid. But hybrids are expensive. Oh well. Maybe they can sell their car to get money to get a hybrid. Oh wait. Nobody wants cars. Because we're talking about the fairy tale "LETS ALL GO GREEN" society this guy wants. Meanwhile, the fat cats STAY fat cats.

Global warming is real. It is, no matter how you look at it, a force of nature. We can't stop hurricanes. We can't stop earthquakes. We cant stop *it*. The guy does make a complex issue very simple. However, he makes it TOO simple. Novel concept. If stopping global warming was so simple a college professor with a YouTube account could crack it, I like to think we'd already be doing something about it. But, unfortunately, we're dealing with a force we don't understand, coupled with the turbulent waters of human society, and even psychology on an individual basis, followed with less complicated global economics, politics, yada yada yada.

You're being sarcastic. We cannot stop hurricanes because they are products of forces over which we have no control, such as the evaporation of water and the sun's light. We do have control over those 2.7 gigatonnes of CO2 we emit into the atmosphere each year, these 2.7 gigatonnes of CO2 per year without whose influence our best computer models cannot explain 20th century rates of warming.

@~[AOD]

[1] Barnett, Tim P.; et al. (2005-07-08). "Penetration of Human-Induced Warming into the World's Oceans". Science 309 (5732): 284–287

Killbert-Robby wrote:Third : I believe that thinking mankind has the impact to be able to alter global patterns is arrogant of us, as a species. This applies to both the theories that we're causing global warming, and to the theory than we can stop it.

We've altered the ozone layer. To say humans as a whole aren't capable of that is a rather silly counter argument.

Killbert-Robby wrote:

HAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHA

KWill wrote:

Killbert-Robby wrote:Third : I believe that thinking mankind has the impact to be able to alter global patterns is arrogant of us, as a species. This applies to both the theories that we're causing global warming, and to the theory than we can stop it.

We've altered the ozone layer. To say humans as a whole aren't capable of that is a rather silly counter argument.

holy crap I thought everyone had forgotten about the ozone layer after Captain Planet went off the air!

seriously I never hear anyone talk about it any more.

Look out, he's been watching fox!

the whole "flick off" thing had me sort of surprised when it came about

because all my family (especially my dad, who works for OPG) already did the "TURN OFF THE GODDAMN LIGHTS WHEN YOURE NOT USING THEM" and we sort of thought it was how everyone else did things too

I didn't read that as flick off...

First, I think it is an excellent video.

Killbert-Robby wrote: First off : I believe in global warming. Its happening. It's undeniable. The world is getting hotter.

Second : I believe this is a force of nature. Thank fuck for global warming, otherwise we'd probably still be in caves in the frozen tundra of Germany hunting mammoth.

The problem is that what you believe is very likely wrong, and you believe it because you lack the skillset to properly evaluate the problem. You are correct, global warming does occur - but in nature it occurs on a timescale measured in thousands of years. The only times we can find in nature where this has not been the case is when there has been a sudden natural disaster.

Killbert-Robby wrote:Third : I believe that thinking mankind has the impact to be able to alter global patterns is arrogant of us, as a species. This applies to both the theories that we're causing global warming, and to the theory than we can stop it.

While it may seem arrogant for us to believe that we can impact the global weather patterns, that doesn't mean it isn't possible. What you are really saying is that you do not believe it is possible for humanity to change global weather patterns, because they are too big to change. However, we already do this on a smaller scale - large cities change the weather patterns around themselves on a local scale.

Killbert-Robby wrote:Fourth : Ok, everyone, swap over to hybrid cars. Invest money in alternative power sources. Build solar boilers on your roof. Trying to stop global warming wouldn't cause a recession. It would cause the lower middle class to lower class to go bankrupt. Yes, gas is expensive. It may be a better investment to get a hybrid. But hybrids are expensive. Oh well. Maybe they can sell their car to get money to get a hybrid. Oh wait. Nobody wants cars. Because we're talking about the fairy tale "LETS ALL GO GREEN" society this guy wants. Meanwhile, the fat cats STAY fat cats.

This guy has not said that he wants everyone to go green. He has asked you to do a risk assesssment, and explained how risk assessments work. Hybrids are currently more expensive than the gasoline they save. However, that is only true in some countries, notably the United States. And if the price of gas continues to climb, you can very quickly determine the price point at which they become economical. Dealers are currently offering $5000 over blue-book on trade-ins, and have done so for as long as I've bought and sold cars, so I don't think selling your car will be a huge issue, if you wanted to.

Investing money in alternative power sources is not going to cause the lower middle class to go bankrupt; in fact, as the price of fossil fuels climbs those alternative power sources will become more, not less, affordable.

Killbert-Robby wrote:Global warming is real. It is, no matter how you look at it, a force of nature. We can't stop hurricanes. We can't stop earthquakes. We cant stop *it*.

We can't stop hurricanes, and we can't stop earthquakes. Those are just two forces of nature. We also cannot stopper volcanos. But, we can scan the sky for asteroids and given time, probably change the course of one that might hit the Earth. Certainly, the technology exists. We can rein in diseases that historically wiped out entire populations. We can utterly alter entire ecosystems. There are forces of nature that we cannot yet handle. And there are forces of nature that are within our grasp.

But, again that assumes this is a force of nature. And the significant majority of evidence points towards either a human-caused event, or at a minimum, a human-influenced event.

Killbert-Robby wrote:The guy does make a complex issue very simple. However, he makes it TOO simple. Novel concept. If stopping global warming was so simple a college professor with a YouTube account could crack it, I like to think we'd already be doing something about it. But, unfortunately, we're dealing with a force we don't understand, coupled with the turbulent waters of human society, and even psychology on an individual basis, followed with less complicated global economics, politics, yada yada yada.

No, actually he makes it quite understandable and uses concepts that are regularly used to manage risks today. His explanation is simple, but not so simple as to be inneffective.

You are argueing that we do nothing, because there is nothing we can do. That global climate change is a force of nature, and just like hurricanes and earthquakes, it is beyond our control. If it is arrogant to think that we can alter the climate, it is spineless of us to not make the attempt.

Killbert-Robby wrote:Second : I believe this is a force of nature. Thank fuck for global warming, otherwise we'd probably still be in caves in the frozen tundra of Germany hunting mammoth.

As someone who lives in Canada, there is a certain appeal to global warming. However, it's still probably not good for the planet, especially for those who live in hotter areas.

Killbert-Robby wrote:Fourth : Ok, everyone, swap over to hybrid cars. Invest money in alternative power sources. Build solar boilers on your roof. Trying to stop global warming wouldn't cause a recession. It would cause the lower middle class to lower class to go bankrupt. Yes, gas is expensive. It may be a better investment to get a hybrid. But hybrids are expensive. Oh well. Maybe they can sell their car to get money to get a hybrid. Oh wait. Nobody wants cars. Because we're talking about the fairy tale "LETS ALL GO GREEN" society this guy wants. Meanwhile, the fat cats STAY fat cats.

This actually hits on a good point - trying to fight global warming won't kill the economy. It might change who the fat cats are, but someone's still gonna find a way to turn a profit on it.

And as was already said, the more people buy into a certain technology, the cheaper it gets.

Rkolter wrote: Dealers are currently offering $5000 over blue-book on trade-ins, and have done so for as long as I've bought and sold cars

Seeing how up until I quit my job, I did this for a living and can tell you that is so not true. Dealerships aim to give you 10-20% UNDER the N.A.D.A. trade in value (which is lower than the Blue book sales value) of your vehicle. if a salesman says he's giving you anything over blue book, he is lying his ass off to you. Mainly because most dealership do not use blue book anymore.

I didn't really read most of the post, just skimming and that caught my eye. Had to comment.

CJBurgandy wrote:

Rkolter wrote: Dealers are currently offering $5000 over blue-book on trade-ins, and have done so for as long as I've bought and sold cars

Seeing how up until I quit my job, I did this for a living and can tell you that is so not true. Dealerships aim to give you 10-20% UNDER the N.A.D.A. trade in value (which is lower than the Blue book sales value) of your vehicle. if a salesman says he's giving you anything over blue book, he is lying his ass off to you. Mainly because most dealership do not use blue book anymore.

I didn't really read most of the post, just skimming and that caught my eye. Had to comment.

There are ads playing right now for $5000 over blue-book. I've heard them for years in both Missouri and Ohio. I guess I can't comment on if they're just jacking the price of the car up to compensate or something. Now I am reminded why I don't like used car dealers (present company excluded).