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I skimmed over part of this thread, but I want to point out that I do not mean we should let people walk all over us or anything, all I am saying is that no one has a right to complain. If you judge things by conventional western moral standards, then most, if not all people, are where they are illegally.

And immigrants are not "taking our jobs," companies are giving them jobs. Let me ask you all something. How would you like to be brutally sodomized (In a metaphorical sense.) by a company? Well, even more so than usual? No? Well, then guess why immigrants are getting these jobs?

Don't like it? Then tell your elected officials to police disreputable companies. That would level the playing field, and it would be consistent with the whole equality part of America's policy. Imagine that.

Swikan wrote:Both countries revel in our diversity and our individual cultural backgrounds. It's what makes us stronger.

In all fairness, you never chose it. Everyone just rushed to America, had a few wars and now you revel in the fact that you eventually made peace and joined forces. That's like Australians revelling in the fact we were a prison colony. It's nothing to do with us making a choice, only deciding to be proud of how things worked out.

It doesn't tend to make countries strong, either. If each ethnic group was better at certain jobs and tasks, it would, but people are just people. If anything, it makes countries more problematic. Riots, discrimination, segregation (sometimes by the choice of the minority), civil wars on the subject of slavery...

And, finally, America is not such a melting pot. Australia is probably roughly equal although it's hard to tell, having only been to America twice and having different groups in both. England, on the other hand, is a far greater melting pot than either. Unlike America and Australia, they don't harp on about it, that's all.

If you have to say it, after all, it's probably not as true as you want it to be.

I'm not criticising America. Well, I am but Australia is not much different. The rhetoric just bugged me a little nd I'm bored waiting for my class to start.

- Joel Fagin

Shishio wrote:And immigrants are not "taking our jobs," companies are giving them jobs. Let me ask you all something. How would you like to be brutally sodomized (In a metaphorical sense.) by a company? Well, even more so than usual? No? Well, then guess why immigrants are getting these jobs?

Well, that's what I'm saying. But I am going a longer route (and I am specifically speaking to *illegal* immigrant labor in my posts) and saying that those companies couldn't get away with diddly if there were no illegal immigrant workforce willing to work in such conditions.

And I don't like and we're working on enforcement against the companies as well as border security.

Joel Fagin wrote:Everyone just rushed to America, had a few wars and now you revel in the fact that you eventually made peace and joined forces.

No, being a melting pot means that we enjoy our different cultural heritages but still belong to the same country. It's a strength because, unlike some homogenous countries, you can rise as high as you are willing to work and be respected for it no mather what your cultural background. Because of the diverse backgrounds of our population, this has helped our economic strength, as I am sure it has for other melting pot countries. We are sure more of a melting pot than a lot of other countries, many of whose natives are trying to get HERE.

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Hmmmm... that's just trying to be inflammatory.

It's not a melting pot, it's a salad! (HURR)

But they are now in France and must follow the rules of France.

It's not so much of a rule as it is just a fuzzy guideline. Or maybe there's an anti-veil law in France, and I don't know. :p

If I were in Africa and my daughter went to an African school where the dress code required her to be topless, I would follow the rules or hire a tutor.

Potentially showing an erogenous zone publicly, and covering a face hardly compares.

My ears are erogenous zones!

COVER THEM!

with my lips!!

jesusabdullah wrote:It's not a melting pot, it's a salad! (HURR)

*tosses a few people around like rag dolls*

Levi! Bob! Get a room, you two.

Levi-chan wrote:But they are now in France and must follow the rules of France.

It's not so much of a rule as it is just a fuzzy guideline. Or maybe there's an anti-veil law in France, and I don't know. :p

It was a public school rule that they were going to put in place, IIRC. I don't know if it passed or not.

Levi-chan wrote: If I were in Africa and my daughter went to an African school where the dress code required her to be topless, I would follow the rules or hire a tutor.

Potentially showing an erogenous zone publicly, and covering a face hardly compares.

You must have skipped the post I was responding to. This was in reference to another post in which a comparison was made to a westerner being topless in Africa. The argument presented to me for not showing the face was that the girls were as uncomfortable exposing their face as I would be if I went to Africa and was asked to expose my breasts. I was following that analogy.

DarkMagician wrote:Levi! Bob! I want some of that juicy, juicy booty too!

Fixed.

*applauds Van for his opening post.*

Swikan wrote:

Levi-chan wrote:But they are now in France and must follow the rules of France.

It's not so much of a rule as it is just a fuzzy guideline. Or maybe there's an anti-veil law in France, and I don't know. :p

It was a public school rule that they were going to put in place, IIRC. I don't know if it passed or not.

Levi-chan wrote: If I were in Africa and my daughter went to an African school where the dress code required her to be topless, I would follow the rules or hire a tutor.

Potentially showing an erogenous zone publicly, and covering a face hardly compares.

You must have skipped the post I was responding to. This was in reference to another post in which a comparison was made to a westerner being topless in Africa. The argument presented to me for not showing the face was that the girls were as uncomfortable exposing their face as I would be if I went to Africa and was asked to expose my breasts. I was following that analogy.

Noted. Note that I don't disagree with your views - it's just that the analogy seemed a bit weird (to me, anyway).

I'm in support of preserving heritages - so long that it is not connected to, or promotes any sort of bias (whether it's with regards to gender, race, or nationality). So, no full-body covers for West Asian female natives for me.

I understand that, but the girls' families and those giving death threats were protesting the remove-veil rule on religious grounds. If it is just a piece of clothing as you say, then they should remove it.

I ment "piece of clothing" as in "substantially different from religious symbol", not as in "unimportant". Panties are a piece of clothing too, but you wouldn't just let anyone through your lingerie drawer.

If I were in Africa and my daughter went to an African school where the dress code required her to be topless, I would follow the rules or hire a tutor.

I'm not so sure of that. I think that you think you would, influenced by current discussion. But most of people, in such situation, don't.

Hmmm... But if the girls CHOSE not to wear them, what would their parents say? Actually, since we have heard so many stories of what happens when women DON'T wear them, under Taliban rule in Aftghanistan for example, it is hard NOT to feel that they are forced. But intellectually, yes I do understand that its a cultural thing and that these women/girls are following their cultural preferences.

Their parents might be outraged, yes. But I think that you aren't seeing the parallel I'm trying to present. For their understanding, woman's face is more intimate part than for us. These things differ from culture to culture. In some cultures, breasts aren't considered intimate part and they don't have problem showing them, while their tighs are far more intimate and man isn't allowed to even brush on them accidentally while passing by.
So yes, their parents might be enraged, just like some western girl's parents would be enraged should she go outside in too revealing clothes.

And then, Taliban society isn't a fair representative of Islamic societies. It's a very extreme example, probably the most extreme one there is. That is miles different from French Islamis, judging them by Talibans would be just a broad generalization.

But they are now in France and must follow the rules of France.

That was the topic from the start. They do have to follow rules to reasonable extent, I think we agreed on that. I think, based on my knowledge of some Islamic cultures, that forbiding veils (and not letting girls choose themselves, or offering any alternative - just broad banning) steps over the reasonable extent.

Yes, but for a complete discussion, we each have to pick a perspective and speak from that. All the perspectives together make for the big picture, each person advocating theirs. We can all see SOMETHING in other perspectives, but it would confuse the conversation to speak from several. (and it makes for incredibly long posts) That most folks spoke their piece in a straightforward way (except for the original rant), let participants see other sides and advocate their own in response without flaming or arguement. Being here in Texas where much of what we are talking about is local news, I can speak best from that perspective and did so. As Nanda spoke from her family's perspective and Kisai spoke from her perspective as a Canadian. Each of us can see and acknowledge the other's position, but we can only speak from our own.

But then you do agree that preferable result of discussion is people being able tolook at the subject from different perspectives.
My perspective is based partly on living in a spot that's a sort of crossroad between east and west. I live in a country with very low standards and occasionally I've been tempted to leave. On the other hand, I believe that people leaving makes situation much worse for people who stay, like me. Lots of my friends, including my sister, immigrated and I know kind of troubles they encounter. On the other hand, my country also has a lot of immigrants arriving from countries with lower standard, like Albania, China or even middle east countires - it's even facing the problem of separatism of territories filled with people who arrived as illegal immigrants, you'll agree that no matter how many Mexicans populate south of USA, they'll hardly get to the point of separating into an independent country - but that's what's most probably going to happen to us. That's a whole lot of perspectives to look in one place, though most of people handle them simply by being hypocrites: "When we come to them, it's good, when they come to us, it's bad."

Ahh... you here HERE when you heard we had high unemployment rates. That explains your perception, then. What we call high unemployment is low compared to much of the world. Our unemployment rates have been in the single digits for years and it is currently something like 5%.

Then no problem about immigrants taking away your job, eh?

That most folks spoke their piece in a straightforward way (except for the original rant), let participants see other sides and advocate their own in response without flaming or arguement.

Yeah, I'm not known for short and direct posts.

In all fairness, you never chose it. Everyone just rushed to America, had a few wars and now you revel in the fact that you eventually made peace and joined forces. That's like Australians revelling in the fact we were a prison colony. It's nothing to do with us making a choice, only deciding to be proud of how things worked out.

You just summed up my gripes about patriotism in general.

Talk about melting pot... I'm sure I studied it all in history classes, but I can't even remember all tribes that went through their territories and left their mark here. Certainly, in recent history borders have changed a lot of times, which makes nations integrated much more than in countires that have less continental borders. Northern Serbia contains a large population of Hungarians, Romanians, Croatians and a few minorities that I can't remember now. Eastern contains population of Bulgarians, and in South, there are Albanians and moslems. Then there are Montenegrians spreaded all over, of course. Now, until the middle of 19th century, we've been occupated by moslem Osmanian empire, which results in that a lot of culture has moslem influences - plus, we are mostly dark-haired and somewhat dark-tanned, even though as Slovens, we're supposed to be red-haired and light-tanned. On the other hand, northern part was all that time under Austro-Hungarian empire, so in that part of the country, influences comming from central Europe and stronger.
I think that every country in the world is a melting pot.

Swikan wrote: It's a strength because, unlike some homogenous countries, you can rise as high as you are willing to work and be respected for it no mather what your cultural background.

All the homogenous countries I've seen (3) or studied (1) are pretty much the same, frankly. The US just has better PR on that front. It's well known that the US is the "land of the free" but Australia, England, New Zealand and most of Europe is just as "free" and certainly the first three are just as much a melting pot. I think England is probably more so.

And the welfare system is terrible in America. I know the arguments about people taking the money and doing nothing in return but for a lot of more motivated people, it helps them a lot to achieve their goals. Without decent welfare, it's harder in America to rise as high as you are willing to work, particularly if you start very low.

Only "harder" mind. Not impossible.

Because of the diverse backgrounds of our population, this has helped our economic strength

How, exactly? Again, people are just people. The person who invented Frappr is chinese - I know his sister - but I can't see that his ethnic background helped him at all.

Incidently, his grandfather was an illegal immigrant.

We are sure more of a melting pot than a lot of other countries, many of whose natives are trying to get HERE.

Again, its just the PR and the fact that people - everywhere - are more aware of their own situation than other's. Australia as a big problem with illegal immigrants as well, coming down from Asia and the Middle East. They don't come because we're the best country in the world, but because we're the best one that happens to be convenient.

Swikan wrote:[

I did say it applied to Australia as well. If the tone is wrong, I apologise, but it is a quote.

And it is true. For example, the only first world country that believes, or even mentions, that the US President is the leader of the free world is the US itself. The politicians and media there want it to be true so they keep repeating it until everyone's convinced.

(That said, there have been some jokes in the press recently about Australia being the fifty third US state. We're in a "follow the US's lead" stage at the moment, at least on Iraq.

Election soonish, though.)

- Joel Fagin

Keep the conversation non-stressed folks. Or reasonably so.

Even black people, traditionally thought to be the most oppressed motherf**kers in the country, are sh***ing bricks over this. Seems the illegal aliens in America are trying to compare their cause to the civil rights movement - daring to compare themselves to Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks. Last time I checked the Yanks weren't making the Mexicans sit at the back of the bus, they didn't make them go to seperate schools, and they didn't hang them up in trees. How the f**k can these morons even compare their problems to black people?

Oh noes. Civil rights don't extend past legal segregation and lynching?
The framework of my reality is shattering.

I also find it rather amusing when advocates for 'closing the border' don't realize that many illegals are in fact... not Mexican. What, you think most of the illegals are coming from a border half the size of the Canadian border?

These illegal aliens are demanding civil rights and wage increases and righteous treatment and - wait, am I missing something? While I understand the base right for people to have civil liberties I don't understand how you can jump over a fence, stay illegally in another country, and then demand the government treat you like a citizen. I certainly don't understand how you can sue the government for not printing tax forms in your home language either.

You contradict yourself. If you think all people have basic rights, and 'righteous treatment,' I don't think you should exclude a person because
there's no dusty papers in a government file cabinet declaring he exists.
People are people. Basic rights are basic rights.

Would you deny a child who had no actual choice in coming into the USA an education? Or basic rights?

That's the thing I think that pisses me off the most about the immigration debate. America's language is English, not Spanish. Repeat - ENGLISH MOTHERF**KERS! YOU ES F**KING COMPRENDE?! When you move to another country you're supposed to adapt to it - not the other way around.

If they want to speak Spanish at home I could really care less, but when they start sh***ing bricks in public about it... well, f**k 'em.

My father is from Quebec. Our family has been here for almost four-hundred years. His native tongue is French, but when he moved to Western Canada to work he learned English. Now he works in the South American country of Surinam - and he has already learned the commoner language of Taki-taki, which is a blend of English, Dutch and Spanish. He is living proof that anyone who isn't a lazy f**k can learn the language of the country in which they work.

Do you think everyone learns English in a single year? Not everybody learns English immediately when they come to this country. Many of these "old" immigrants — the ones from Europe that the English-only people seem to consider the "good" immigrants — lived in neighborhoods with other people from their homelands. That made it natural for many of them to speak the language from the old country at home.
One thing the 'english-only' seem to forget is that America has always been a melting pot. There are examples of Spanish, French, Yiddish, and German words that have been absorbed by English and are now used by Americans every day. It makes for a richer language and culture. Is there any reason to think that in the future when we start to adopt some of the language of the "new" immigrants, that English will be any less enriched?

English has never been a static language. If a person from one part of the country has trouble understanding a person from another region, should we outlaw regional slang and accents, too?

Some Hispanic motherf**ker in the audience got up to the mic and started running his mouth about how the term "illegal alien" offended him saying that, and I quote, "no human is illegal". Furthermore one of the panelists elaborated about the term "alien" that illegal aliens, and I quote, "are not from outer space".
Semantic arguments are stupid and pointless, but when you're too ignorant to understand the meaning of terms once again your opinion is rendered moot.

For all you pro-illegal alien douches out there (Which is, like, 2% of the legal American population according to the latest gala polls) I'll explain the term "illegal alien" to you.

Listen carefully.

"Illegal" means "against the law". "Alien" means "foreigner". Put them together and you get "foreigner against the law" - someone who has gone somewhere and stays there against the national policies. It does not mean "lawless space monster".

God, you are like one giant logical fallacy. Judging an entire group from a single dude? Good job. Truly, you are a master of debate.

Now y'all must be asking yourself "Gee, Van, you motherf**king Right-wing warmongering racist nazi Republican NRA KKK pro-life GOP-loving bastard - what's your problem?"

I haven't been wondering that now, I've been wondering that since you ever joined this community.

Illegal aliens working in America both hurts and helps the country. Illegal aliens help employers who are looking for cheap labour without benefits. I don't deny that a lot of these people are earnest in their efforts to work. A lot of them want to work, and want to reach the American Dream.

This is where the hurt comes in. Illegal aliens hurt legal citizens. Not only do they take jobs that others would be willing to take (That whole rhetoric that Americans don't like sh***y jobs is bulls**t - if there's work there's someone willing to do it), but they also enroll their kids in school which, if you forget, costs taxpayer money. Did I mention a lot of these illegal aliens don't pay taxes, even though it's possible to without providing proof of citizenship? Did I mention half of them are highschool drop-outs? Did I mention how much the crime rate has dropped in El Paso since they walled it off from Mexico?

You are quite misinformed and misguided. Believe it or not, illegals really do do the sh***y jobs Americans don't want to. And for lower than minimum wage. If you don't believe me, take a walk down to Central Valley, California.
But I find it amusing that you blame only the illegals, instead of the employers who are actually hiring them. Obviously, if the 'illegals are taking my jobs' crap argument had any merit, that would be more of a problem.

This is hurting the middle class of America, which is already hurting a lot. If this trend continues there will no longer be an upper, middle and lower class - the middle class will eventually be pounded into near-poverty and merge with the lower class.

This argument has no merit. Do you think that the illegals were middle class to begin with? That they are 'stealing' middle class work? If anything, it is outsourcing that would cause your fantastic scenario. But, of course, nobody ever really talks about that. It's them damn illegals takin' our jobs!

Compound that with the rising population of America (Oh-so recently reaching 300 million) and the overuse of our planet's natural resources and we have a major f**king situation on our hands.

So the illegals are killing our planet too? Oh man. Stop the presses. Apparently illegals are the only people who reproduce now.

If this can happen to America it can also happen to Canada, and whatever hurts America's economy can also hurt Canada's economy since we are its closest and biggest trade partner. As a patriotic and proud Canadian I cannot idly sit by and allow a bunch of fence hoppers to threaten the economic safety of our sister nation.

How patriotic of you.

It's high time to take tougher stances on illegal immigration in North America, and high time both Canada and America kick the Mexican government in its lazy ass so its people aren't so desperate to come to America.

Finally, something I somewhat agree with. Yes, I think we should aid the central American countries instead of creating banana republics and puppet dictators. That would be great.

F**k Iraq - America should have invaded Mexico.

What Bob said in the second post.

If this rant offended you, well, cry me a river.
The Douchemeister is back.

Your grasp on the English language is what offended me, my good sir.

How... ironic.

The person who invented Frappr is chinese - I know his sister - but I can't see that his ethnic background helped him at all.

It didn't hurt him either, which is part of the definition of a melting pot. There are some countries where people of non-native ethnic backgrounds can't significantly contribute to the society's economy. Mexico is an example. Because we have so many from different backgrounds, and allows them to compete in the econmy on equal footing with each other, the best and most creative are the ones who get ahead. Also, because we have so many of so many different ethnic backgrounds, we are consumers and producers of a greater variety of goods. This is better for our country because we can export a greaty variety of goods to more countries.

I just deleted the rest of this post because I was getting defensive of my country. You could've told us how Austraila handles immigration and foreign-speakers and offered up another perspective as McDuffies and I were discussing, and contributed to the discussion. But you chose otherwise. I am disapointed at you turning this wonderful discussion into an America-bashing.

Honestly, I'm dissapointed in this thread. We've gone from seriously looking at the problem to defending hatred and spite.

Wouldn't it be nicer to look for solutions than to focus on the problem?

dracomax wrote:Honestly, I'm dissapointed in this thread. We've gone from seriously looking at the problem to defending hatred and spite.

Welcome to a Van thread, please enjoy your stay.