Your opinion please

4thalord · Post by **4thalord** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:35 pm

I suppose a disclaimer is waranted here.

This topic is not meant to bring anyone to Jesus. Im not trying to save anyone right now. I really just want your honest opinions.

As some of you might know there's been a death in my family that has caused me to take a long hard look at my faith. I've been reading the bible THE WHOLE THING- and I have some problems that I'm working out about it all.

What do you think of the bible? What are your thoughts on The Old Testament Especially? How can the more religious of you reconcile the Old Testanent with the Gospels of the Disciples?

I am very anxiously asking this. And Ill say again, you won't get any saving from me right now.

KittyKatBlack · Post by **KittyKatBlack** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:04 pm

I think this is probably a question best suited for Christwriter.

4thalord · Post by **4thalord** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:11 pm

KittyKatBlack wrote:I think this is probably a question best suited for Christwriter.

No, this is a question for everyone.

Long story short, I'm not sure I can continue my faith in Jesus at this time. I had some information passed on to me by someone close to my heart, and I am wondering what others think of this book I've been following all my life.

Terotrous · Post by **Terotrous** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:16 pm

Well I'm not a bible scholar, or even christian, so this should probably be taken with a pinch of salt:

I'm pretty sure different churches have different opinions over which is the right answer in places where the bible contradicts itself, or you could go with your own opinion.

As for old testament vs new testament, again, it's a matter of which you give priority to. I'd lean towards new as old suggests things like stoning people for homosexuality and that women should never go to the workplace and so on.

In general I think it's probably best to avoid interpretting the Bible literally and worrying over the small details. The Bible is largely more about conveying a message than it is specific factoids. Times have changed a lot since then, so a number of things aren't really relevant anymore, but things like morals have endured.

Where conflicts arise, realize that even if this is the word of God, it was penned by humans, who are prone to error.

That's my two cents, anyway.

Joel Fagin · Post by **Joel Fagin** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:18 pm

I can't take the Bible as the literal truth. Whether or not it was inspired by God, it was written by humans and humans exagerate, create stories, and misinterpret. It was also product of its time, advocating slavery and decrying the eating of crabs. It was also a product of the culture of the time. Most Christians - and most people - would consider bigamy as a crime yet Solomon had a hundred wives.

Proofs of the various Bibles were often hung outside printing houses for passers-by to make corrections in. That's one reason why there's so many versions.

What I'm trying to say is that any inconsistancies are simply inconsistancies. They don't have to fit together neatly and make a single picture and probably wouldn't if you tried. What meaning you find in it is the important thing, not the plot.

- Joel Fagin

KittyKatBlack · Post by **KittyKatBlack** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:22 pm

Well, honestly I've never seen why anyone would trust a book from an unknown source from thousands of years ago. This was from an age from BEFORE people thought the world was flat, and thought that if you died during gruesom torture you were obviously guilty.

But I've already made my stance on religion (All religion, not just christianity.) quite clear previoulsy, but I respect those who still follow it, even though it confuses me greatly. Really if you study the religions of old civilizations that no longer exist, (Myans, Egyptians, Romans) and some non-mainstream religions like tribal faith, you'll see so many similarities that I find it rather obnoxious for people to go, 'Well these people were obvioulsy just uneducated heathens.' and then turn around and praise a faith that basicly is the exact same thing but with a different story behind it.

I'm sorry if you were looking for someone to give you a reason to go on belieivng in your faith, but I'm not the person to do it. Instead, I would tell you to believe in yourself, and what you know is right. If there is or isn't a God, it doesn't matter. If you're a good person in your heart and do what you feel is right as long as it's not hurting anyone else, I don't see why there should be any reason that if there does happen to be a god for some reason, that you'll be turned away. A lot of the 'sins' that people talk about don't even make any sense and were, in my opinion, nothing more than a easy way for ancient government to control the masses. There is no need for such a thing in this day and age.

I'm sorry if it's not what you wanted to hear and I want you to know I was not trying to offend you or your religion in any way, I just gave you my honest opinion on the matter.

The Neko · Post by **The Neko** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:25 pm

Well, I studied a lot of the history behind the making of the bible and I find a lot of it fairly dubious. To be honest, the composition of the New Testament makes me think of it more as a political document than anything else, due to it consisting almost entirely of pseudopigraphia.

I also have difficulty reconciling a lot of the logic found in it, especially since the Christian God is seemingly defined in extremes "all powerful, all knowing, all good", which doesn't really hold up well to the tests of logic. By comparison, the older definitions of "very powerful, very knowing, and very good" explain why bad things happen and why evil exists, while at the same time describing how good things happen; it retains power without being bombast.

The text itself, whether old or new testaments, tend to have too many contradictions for my tastes, because they're written by people who needed different values to be emphasized due to the urgencies of their time periods. It's been locked in a value system long gone.

Grabmygoblin · Post by **Grabmygoblin** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:39 pm

I really suggest you find local adult Bible studies class you like.

don't be afraid of opposing views, but if you find the group highly populated by people who stifle your findings, do not be afraid to try another group.

Yeahduff · Post by **Yeahduff** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:36 pm

The details are dubious, but that shouldn't deter you. The main point of the bible is that god will always be there for the faithful, even if it doesn't seem like it. The Old Testament especially shouldn't be read literally (and probably not Revelations, while we're on the subject), but the continuing theme, that we will fail but god will take care of us if we have faith, is valid.

So don't give up.

Linkara · Post by **Linkara** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:07 pm

As a Christian myself, I'm more than happy to throw my two cents in. ^^

Now, the bible itself, if one looks at it from a couple contexts, should not be taken for literal fact. Some people have already expressed the reasonings for this, mostly inconsistencies as well as things that we consider morally reprehensible today that they believed were morally justified in their time. However, the bible should not be disregarded outright, since it's still the primary holy book of the Christian faith. The stories of Jesus and all the glorious things he did and taught and the overall message of God's eternal grace and love should be taken to heart.

My problem is that people get so mired in the details that they seem to forget about the message. As such, don't discount your faith just because the book is flawed. Nothing on this world is perfect, so don't expect a book that's gone through a lot of editorial decisions (as well as its initial beginnings, which were just the separate books eventually brought together) to be perfect, either. Focus in on the important stuff and leave the stuff that detracts from it at the door. Also, take the time just to enjoy certain quotes just for the sheer grandeur of the writing. Sure, some of the Bible is written poorly, but there's some nifty stuff in there that shouldn't necessarily be thrown away. ^_~

"Set free the oppressed, break every yoke, clothe the naked, and your light shall break forth like the dawn and the glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard." Love that one, although still having trouble tracking down where exactly in Isaiah it's from. ^_~

I would also like to point out that I get rather upset when people start talking about how supposedly all religions are the same or that the similarities outweight the differences, because it's really not true.

As I've begun studying other religions, the sheer number of differences and things I just don't understand about their faiths in comparison to my own just planly show how the similarities are fleeting at best and simply discarding the amount of emotional attachment one gives to a particular faith and not another can be a little heartbreaking at times.

Jesusabdullah · Post by **Jesusabdullah** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:07 pm

I've only read parts of the bible--I'm far from a scholar--and I'm an agnostic, but...what the heck, I'll type anway. I'm good at that.

I heard this episode of Fresh Air (which is probably the best show ever on NPR after, perhaps, Performance Today) once about early Christian sects--like, ons that existed before the Catholics got together and organized everything under one system (for a while anyway). I recall one sect that they discussed believed that Jesus and the Old Testament god were two separate entities that were at odds with each other. What I mean is that God is vengeful and kinda mean, while Jesus is a lot more chill and forgiving, and that these attitudes clash. This, in a way, makes sense--I mean, the Old Testament has a lot of serious punishments for little things (Like, where I stopped reading, Noah totally put a thousand+ year curse on his son and all his descendants for laughing at him when he was seen passed out drunk and naked in his tent (instead of covering him up, like his brothers did)), while Jesus is full of talk about forgiveness and whatnot (and dying for our sins, of course).

I'm not saying this is how I feel, but maybe this is somewhat applicable in that the coming of Jesus revolutionized everything by making sins easier to forgive. Perhaps, even, some of the sins outlined in the Old Testament, such as believing in other gods or being gay, are practically nonexistent because of Jesus.

Again, I don't know nothin'. That's just how I reconcille it.

As someone suggested, maybe a bible study group would be better to talk with? Or, even, your church leaders?

Finally: I know that most bibles are translations of translations at best, and that this probably changes small but important details in the book. For example, I've heard that "Thou shalt not kill" is also translated as "Thou shalt not murder", depending. Maybe that's somewhat to blame? Idk, idk at all.

Good luck.

ChibiJess · Post by **ChibiJess** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:08 pm

*takes a deep breath*

Alright. The best way to describe my faith is "ecclectic" - I find that some parts of the Bible are contradictory, and that other parts seem rather out of date. In modern day - I'm what's called a "cafeteria catholic" - or more of a cafeteria believer - I'm an amalgamation of alot of beliefs.

I have had several crisises of faith due to the teachings of my church (refusal to accept condoms as a way to prevent a horrifying disease being one of them, etc), and the contradictions of the Bible. I've also looked into Ancient history - greeks, romans, and egyptians, as well as philosophy. I find so many parallels between religions through time, that I've pretty much drawn the conclusion that one Greater Being (Call he/she/it what you will) exists and has shown themselves throughout history in different forms to different peoples to fit their culture and developement. Hence my ecclectisism - God is in all things, and people honour said diety in different ways.

My main beef with the Bible is assigning a gender to God. I prefer to think of God as flexible, and cementing he/she/it into a single role is limiting a supposedly limitless being.

Try to keep an open mind with things, and take time to discover God for who he/she/it really is to you. This is just my opinion. Sorry if I offended anyone

Anyway - good luck with your crisis of faith, and I'm sorry for your loss, and I hope everything turns out for the best.

Corgan_dane · Post by **Corgan_dane** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:23 pm

Just to preface this, I'm a preacher's kid. At one time I wanted to be a youth pastor. I went through so many periods of change in my faith I don't even want to go into it. I've asked the hard questions and come up with the same answer from every religion. It is:

If you dig deep enough and ask the tough questions, you're going to get answers like "It's all god's plan" or "It's not for us to know."

Thus, I choose not to believe anything specific. Yes, I believe there is something out there. Whether it's an omnipotent being, a race of intelligent highly-evolved creatures, or a huge pencil in the hand of an animator, there is something there. Too much crazy stuff happens that we can't explain with science yet (keyword is yet) for there not to be more to it all.

With that said, the Bible, specifically is a good storybook that's been translated so many times by so many hacks that I just can't see anyone taking anything it says literally anymore. Parts of it are a good moral guide. The ten commandments are some darn good writing.

The problem is that it contains things which I cannot believe a good and just god would condone; discrimination, sexist teachings, etc. It's a good guidebook if you're willing to realize that it was written by men who were (allegedly) transcribing the words of the omnipotent creator of the universe.

That's a good way to look at it, if you're willing to accept that an all powerful being would allow an insignificant ant of a male homo-sapien to bastardize his writing. It just seems all too contrived to me.

Anyway, as for me, I've decided that there is no FACTUALLY PROVEN and RECORDED way to know what happens once one dies. So I live my life in a way that I feel is morally right, and when I die I'll do one of three things:

1.) Find out <insert religion here> was right, and be content with the fate dealt me by my decisions.

2.) Find out that things are totally different than expected and have a great adventure.

3.) Go into the great black void of unbeing and know nothing.

I choose to live in the here and now instead of attempting to spend my entire life living up to expectations that are at times ridiculous, and which I do not KNOW to be right.

In the end it's all a big gamble. Basically when you choose a religion or belief system you're just placing all your chips on one number, and hoping it pays off.

[AlmightyPyro] · Post by **[AlmightyPyro]** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:33 pm

My advice. Don't base what you believe from others opinions. You have to make them yourself. If you don't believe fully in something, pray about it, and study up. Keep an open mind. The world is based off beliefs, just make sure yours, is your own.

Black Sparrow · Post by **Black Sparrow** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:51 pm

Faith is a tricky thing. I went through a faith crisis a couple years back... Since, I've completely reworked how I see religion in general, and Christianity in particular.

The main thing is to talk to people. Your religious leaders are a good start, although family and friends may also be a good choice. In most cases, these people will support you through times of conflict like this.

But don't take everything everyone else says as fact, either. Religion is a personal thing. The main thing is to discover what you still believe in, not what others expect you to. Do you still believe in a higher power? Do you believe in the God of Christian faith? Is Jesus still a part of your beliefs? These are all questions you'll have to consider, and it won't be easy, because they're questions no one can answer for you.

Jeffy · Post by **Jeffy** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:52 pm

as a Christian who believes in God, I'd say the Bible is a good guideline, but not something to be taken too literally

RemusShepherd · Post by **RemusShepherd** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:23 pm

4thalord wrote:Long story short, I'm not sure I can continue my faith in Jesus at this time.

On what is your faith in Jesus based?

Is it based on the literal truth of the Bible? Is it based upon the literal fact of a tripartite creator? If so, any honest assessment you make will cause you to discard your faith.

But instead, is perhaps your faith based upon the value of the Bible's teachings, whether as historical document or as parables that have been tested and proven throughout millenia? Is your faith based upon the concept that some benevolent power greater than mankind exists, and your religious principles are valid ways to make the world better? If so, you may find yourself discarding some unnecessary baggage but keeping and strengthening your faith.

If you want to know what I believe, read chapter 7 of my comic. But...it probably would do you more harm than good in your current state.

The answers you want are inside yourself, look for them there.

Stinkywigfiddle · Post by **Stinkywigfiddle** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:32 pm

I was raised by very Christian parents. Taught to believe that everything in the Bible is 100% true (except for Revelation, for some reason). And I did believe it for a while.

Nothing particularly drastic happened to make me lose faith. I think maybe I questioned everything too much, and I like to read about various theologies, and the history of the Bible.

It seemed to me that the creation story in Genesis was just like any other creation story. And it turns out the Bible isn't as directly inspired by God as I was led to believe. And as I began to form my own opinion on things, I disagreed with some of the Bible's teachings. It doesn't seem very fair to women, for one.

So now I don't really believe in Heaven or Hell. I'm not entirely convinced that there is a god. And I'm very cynical about pretty much everything.

Am I better off?
I dunno.
I can draw naked pictures without fear of God smiting me.

Laemkral · Post by **Laemkral** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:35 pm

Why lose faith in Jesus? Whether he was the son of God, a living incarnation of God, or just some dude, he has a good message. Love thy neighbor, treat others as you'd wish to be treated, kindness, compassion.

People die, and it's not always fair, but please take joy in that they lived. Remember them for the things they have done, and the life they had led. Feel their loss, but know how much greater your own life is from the experience of having had them involved in it. Cherish these memories and they will live on through you and your own deeds, and thusly be remembered in the memories you make for others and the good deeds that YOU do.

Dutch! · Post by **Dutch!** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:10 pm

I see it as a fable. It's based on truths, but like a fable those truths have been hidden or misinterpreted (I'm optimistic at heart, so I'm going to say with goodwill intended...others may debate that point with good reason!) over three or four thousand years. The morals behind it I think are valuable, and the stories selected to convey those morals I believe are worthy of knowing and retelling and passing on.

As for major historical facts behind it, I believe that many of the characters represented were historical figures. I just question the timeline and specific events as fact. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have all been traced to specific people, locations and times. Unfortunately, they do not correlate to the story chosen to portray them. I believe Jesus existed, there's enough proof to say so. The resurrection and stuff I believe is simply the people of the day explaining it to the best of their knowledge. It would appear miraculous that somebody rose from the dead three days later, if you didn't realise that the ointments and things he was cleansed in when taken down such as aloe are actually medicinal herbs.

Seems as though the historical figure may have made his way into Tibet and become a major monk of whatever religion (can't recall the exact name) was prevalent there at that time. A grave has been discovered there with markings on hands and feet that correlate to crucifixion, and it is buried in a direction matching Hebrew tradition instead of the direction associated with Buddhist tradition...amongst other findings.

Anyway, I reckon it's a valuable book with worthy stories to be passed on about how you should attempt to live your life, along with stories of the consequences that happen if you don't.

The choice is ultimately yours though. I'm not religious. I'm not spiritual. I do respect the principle ideal the Bible is supposed to stand for. A death in the family could very well shake your belief or your faith, I don't know how it would affect me because my faith is not in a religion. My faith is more in fate, I suppose. But bluntly, people die. It's not nice. A mate of mine died a few weeks ago, three weeks after being married. Cancer got him at 34. It's not good. But I remember his enthusiasm and enjoyment of just about anything he did. That keeps my faith in the world going.

Maybe it could be the same with you as well.