Freedom Of Religion?

[Joel Fagin]

But really, it must be pointed out (again) that evolution isn't "turning one animal into another animal" . . . it's the gradual adaptation and improvement of a species. Any substantial improvement or enhanced ability to survive in its environment counts as evolution. A bigger, better, stronger breed of horse is still a horse . . . just an evolved horse.

The distinction is important in context, though. I don't think anyone denies you can breed a bigger or faster horse. What everyone's actually talking about in debates about ID vs Evolution is the whole changing species bit. Breeding strongly suggests evolution exists but, alas, doesn't prove it truly is possible.

Dogs are a pretty good argument, though. Turning a wolf into a bald rat with bug eyes has got to be pretty close.

- Joel Fagin

[Jim North]

Breeding strongly suggests evolution exists but, alas, doesn't prove it truly is possible.

This is why it's a theory and not a law, natch. There is still plenty of proof to suggest it's possible . . . plenty of proof to suggest that human beings have taken part in making such macroevolution happen as well.

See, thing is, we actually are in the process of duplicating the process, since we're continuing the practice of selective breeding. It's just highly difficult for us to directly analyze the data of that process on a massive scale. The study of evolution is, in fact, following the scientific method, just on a very very slow timetable. Once again, this is another reason why it's still just a theory rather than a law . . . the experiment is still in progress.

[Joel Fagin]

. . the experiment is still in progress.

Wait... If evolution is an experiment, who's running it?

(And around we go again... )

- Joel Fagin

[Jim North]

Wait... If evolution is an experiment, who's running it?

I didn't say evolution is an experiment.

[Guildmaster Van]

Well, I don't know - I'm not sure what you mean by statisticly.

I mean scientific data collected by sociologists.

On ID v E in schools: One of the problems is that evolution is taught as fact and not as a theory. I beleive both ID and evolution should be taught and they should both be taught as theories.

The day that someone begins teaching intelligent design in my country outside of religion class is the day I walk into the cathedral with a big book of science and begin reading it out loud right next to the priests.

I refer to this rant by 2 the Ranting Gryphon; who FYI used to be a minister.

And I quote; "The whole point of religion is to reject science - that's its job. Religion cannot survive without rejecting new ideas, that's the whole point. Science says the earth is millions of years old; religion rejects it. Science says homosexuality is genetic; religion rejects that too. Science says 'Hey! You can't come back from the dead!'; religion says 'Hey! Rejected!' And that's fine, y'know. If that's the way you wanna do things that's perfectly okay, but if you're gonna reject science then you can't start planting your s**t in science books! How can you be that f**king stupid?! It's like your brain all crawled up Carl Tuckerson's ass or something. You can't just staple the word 'theory' on the end of a belief and magically presto it into science, okay?! Explain to me the science in being commanded to chop off the end of our dicks. Show me the god damn research papers on that one. Burning bushes, walking on water, parting the ocean,; there's no science there! Intelligent design is a science like Pamela Anderson is a f**king virgin, okay? Religion has never brought us a treatment for cancer, a more fuel efficient vehicle, a cleaner power source, or even a better f**king toaster! God has its place in the world and that can be a very important and useful thing, but it's not and never will be science!"

In regards to The Van's latter posts: Since God is completely perfect, man is solely responsible for any wrong doing association with Christianity.

If god was perfect he wouldn't have created something as stupid and evil as men. I believe the Abramic god is just as imperfect as any of us, and that people who say he's completely perfect are just using it as an excuse to get away with all sort of villainy.

I wish I could give you sources and numbers, Van, but from various places I've read (admittedly, many Christian sources), Christianity is only being outpaced by Islam in terms of global growth. It's still the most popular religion, and Neo-Pagan/Wicca is barely registering still. Maybe my sources are wrong, but even if that's the case, it'll be a long time before there's a serious dent in the Christian following.

I don't trust Christian sources simply for the fact that they're, well, Christian. I don't trust Christians to make a fair analysis of something. Christians killed a bunch of people in Salem out of superstition and stupidity - they don't get the good judge of character award. I mean, they spread rumours Marilyn Manson removed his lower two ribs so he could suck his dick, that he nailed a cow on stage, jacked off a little boy, and threw animals into the crowd demanding they be sacrificed before he play.

I trust Christians to say something honest about themselves as much as I trust a guy dressed like a pointy headed ghost saying "I love them there black folks"

Anyway; here's some numbers for the top 22 religions from a site called adherents.com
It's a rough judgement, so the numbers can vary depending on the religion (Such as the estimates for Christian, Muslim, and Athiest, which are give or take 100,000,000 around the real numbers)

Christianity: 2.1 billion
Islam: 1.3 billion
Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
Hinduism: 900 million
Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
Buddhism: 376 million
Primal-indigenous: 300 million (Shamanism; though not limited to one race)
African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
Sikhism: 23 million
Juche: 19 million
Spiritism: 15 million
Judaism: 14 million
Baha'i: 7 million
Jainism: 4.2 million
Shinto: 4 million
Cao Dai: 4 million
Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
Tenrikyo: 2 million
Neo-Paganism: 1 million
Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
Scientology: 500 thousand

------------------------------------------------

For more fun; here's 2's rant on religion

And if my previous comments were offensive to you; then I'm sorry, but remember your belief system is offensive to me.

[Laemkral]

Thanks for the corrections Jim.

More evidence on evolution:
Humans-Look at the spine. It's all wrong. The S-curve is completely flawed for a bipedal organism and is derived from a single curve found in primates. A straight spine capable of flexing would provide much more support without that whole "disk slippage" problem.
Meat is not good for our intestines because although we're capable of consuming it and digesting it and processing it, we're not capable of doing so efficiently. The consumption of meat (the rawer the more problematic) slows down the intestinal tract leading to cancer of the colon. Our traditional diet is one of high fiber fruits and veggies. Score one for vegetarians and vegans.

Bacteria and virii-the lowest forms of life (and if I remember correctly, non-life because a virus is technically not alive) in the form of infectious diseases. Why is it we have a flu vaccine every year that stops you from getting the flu, yet stops working right around the same time every year? The disease adapts and becomes resistant to the drugs, and this has happened quite often with bacteria. One of the greatest threats to our health is the overuse of antibacterials, leading to resistant strains that are harder or nigh impossible to kill. HIV has several forms now if I remember right, some of which are resistant to some of the original anti-viral drugs developed to fight it. These are clear cut cases of adaptation to a changing environment, and on a very accelerated rate.

[Blackaby]

I'd say that Christianity is still doing a fair bit of pwning then. Given population increases, I'd hazard a guess that this is the most Christians alive at any one time - although yes, yes, know it's relative. I'd also be interested to find out if these statistics are from censuses or from organisation-style polls. Even Christian groups themselves will admit that the numbers given by organisations are suspect - some countries will inflate theirs to get more funding/others will state their congrations as much lower to avoid certain fiscal papal responsibilities.

[Captainclover]

Captainclover, I want to apologize on behalf of those idiots that tell you you're going to hell, simply becasue of your lifestyle. It's quite ridiculous because in truth, every person on earth (including them and me) deserves hell because of our sin. Thankfully, God has provided a way out for all people; to beleive that Jesus is the son of God and that he died in our place. Salvation is a free gift open to everyone, including homosexuals. (that's the Christ-centered Christian view.)
The people that claim to be Christians and yet hate you have no right to carry 'Christ' in their name. Don't be fooled, they are frauds. Their place in heaven is far from secure themselves so they have no right to tell you you're going to hell.
A definiton of a Christian as I know it may help: One who confesses they are a sinner before God, beleives in his heart that Jesus died for his sins and the sins of all people and that Jesus rose again and is still alive today. A Christian must be willing to accept that his life is not his own, that God is lord over him, and obeys him. "If you love me you will obey what I command."- John 14:15 NIV. God never commands hatred.

Still, it is the Christian beleif that homosexuality is a sin and it's wrong. However, what your friend said to you sounded more to me like homophobia than Christianity. It may surprise you to know that the two are almost complete opposites. Violence and hate against homosexuals has no place in Christ-centered Christianity. You're "christian" friend's statement was clear evidence to me that she didn't have the first clue about what being a Christian meant. When people say things like your "christian" friend did, it makes me so angry. It's an outrage and I am SICK of it! Your friend's reasoning about sin was also faulty. Really there are no degrees of sin. Sin is sin is sin in the eyes of God. Everyone deserves the same fate according to the Bible.

However, according to our beleifs, the sin of homosexuality still remains, and like any sin, God can heal it; God can erase it. I say this with all the love I have within me. Some people may call me a bigot ar a fanatic for saying that, but according to the Bible, nothing is impossible for God. I know things are hard for you, Captainclover so here's at least one Christian saying: God loves you and so do I!

I hope all that helps. I wish you all the best, Captainclover.

you know, i've had years to deal with all of this stuff so i'm really okay now. i didn't mean for it to sound like some sorta sob story or like i was expecting people to pity me or something.

from my studies and experiences i have learned that there are basically two schools of thought regarding homosexuality as a sin. people either believe that it is a choice and that homosexuals are just misled and need to turn back to god and through him they will be healed, or others believe that it is something you are inherently born with, and it is a test from god for you to overcome or abstain from.

honestly, i don't care for either of those explanations. i don't want to get too into my personal experiences, but suffice to say that my personal belief is that there should be no one between myself and god telling me what to believe. i think that all you ever need to know about god comes from your heart and even the bible's condemnation of homosexuality is debatable (really, i don't want to get too into it... but if you're that interested about either what i have to say about the bible or my personal experiences, send me a message). when you pray for years to be cured or to feel differently and everyone tells you that you're wrong and you begin to truly hate yourself because you can't change something so simple about yourself... but in your heart it just feels so right... who do you believe? when you feel that god is actually sending you a message that there's nothing wrong with you and that you should accept yourself as you are... who are you going to believe?

when you really examine the 'sin' of homosexuality... it just doesn't make sense. it doesn't hurt anyone... all it is is love, and how can love be wrong? god is love and how can you say my kind of love is wrong because of the lack of a penis? the truth is that i wouldn't want to worship a god who said love in any form is wrong. (and i swear, if anyone says "what about pediphiles??" or any of that bullshit, i will kick your ass. i'm talking about the love between two consenting adults) i also don't think that anyone who isn't a homosexual has any right to tell me what it's like. had i not started to suspect that i was gay, i probably never would have looked into the matter any further and i would have never experienced what i have experienced or learned what i've learned. i would probably still think that it's a sin.

honestly, it doesn't really even bother me when people tell me they believe it's a sin anymore. so long as we can agree to disagree, i'm okay with it. i used to argue up and down with every fundimentalist i met trying to explain to them what i've learned... but people always ultimately end up believing what they want to in the end. very few christians i've met have really taken the time to think about what i have to say (and almost always, they're the ones who've specifically asked me about it). i've given up on trying to make people see things the way i do because coming from their point of view... yeah, i probably am going to hell. the way they see it, i accept i am a homosexual and i do not view it as a sin so i will not ask for forgiveness and ultimately, will probably go to hell. *shrugs* whatever floats your boat, i guess.

[RemusShepherd]

yeah, i probably am going to hell. the way they see it, i accept i am a homosexual and i do not view it as a sin so i will not ask for forgiveness and ultimately, will probably go to hell. *shrugs*

You and me both, brother. Or as I've said in the past, "I am not evil; I am, at worst, one of the excellent damned."

[Rkolter]

Crap people, leave me NO talking points whatsoever why don't you?



To those who like ID theory:

ID Theory is not a scientific theory. It is a belief not based on any empiracal evidence, that a higher power must at some point have influenced the development and advancement of life on earth. It is a theory only in the non-scientific definition of the word.

And you are welcome, totally welcome, to believe it. And to teach it.

But please do not teach it as science. Because the reasoning and methods of science are not used in ID theory.

People who seek to have ID theory taught as science are, intentionally or not, seeking to undermine the scientific method itself.

Evolution is as close to fact as a theory can ever become - it is as rock solid as Gravity. We don't have every piece of either Evolution or Gravity, but we have so much evidence for both that seeking to overturn them is inherently difficult. ID Theory is the literal equivilent of seriously suggesting the reason you don't fly off into space is that God's hand is holding you to the ground, and suggesting the evidence of God's hand is that we have not found a graviton yet.

[Ian Moulding]

from my studies and experiences i have learned that there are basically two schools of thought regarding homosexuality as a sin. people either believe that it is a choice and that homosexuals are just misled and need to turn back to god and through him they will be healed, or others believe that it is something you are inherently born with, and it is a test from god for you to overcome or abstain from.

Third school of thought: Many of the commandments of the old testament (And there are far more than ten. Just think of the ten as the bullet-points of the Bible) were based on establishing a Jewish identity seperate from the other Semitic cultures in the region, and on increasing and protecting the Jewish population. Many of the things abhorred in the Old Testament were old Jewish religious activities linked to the other tribes, dietary practices of the other tribes, or marriage and inheritance practices of the other tribes. Also abhorred were behaviours that might limit the reproductive success of the Jewish people in a competitive environment.

While I believe that parts of the Bible were divinely inspired, it's clear that 90% of the Bible is the work of humans. It's like a game of telephone; One person hears God whispering in her ear, she tells someone what God said, he tells someone what she said God said, they tell someone else... And eventually some scribe writes down the story that someone told him about a mad woman who died five hundred years ago claiming to talk to God. And then an inquisitor tortures the scribe for writing it down wrong.

[Black Sparrow]

i've given up on trying to make people see things the way i do because coming from their point of view... yeah, i probably am going to hell. the way they see it, i accept i am a homosexual and i do not view it as a sin so i will not ask for forgiveness and ultimately, will probably go to hell. *shrugs* whatever floats your boat, i guess.

You're a stronger person than I am. I get all pissed off when someone passes another gay-marriage ban, or something like that. I understand the point of view, certainly... my dad, who I look up to and admire more than anyone, is a strict conservative on the gay issue. (Three guesses why I haven't come out to him yet.) But that doesn't mean that I still won't be bothered when other people think it's so wrong.

[Jim North]

Crap people, leave me NO talking points whatsoever why don't you?

Oh, I see how it is . . . first it's all "Woo, Kolter's Angels!" and now it's all "Hey, shut up and let me do the science talking!" There's just no pleasing you!

[CJBurgandy]

i've given up on trying to make people see things the way i do because coming from their point of view... yeah, i probably am going to hell. the way they see it, i accept i am a homosexual and i do not view it as a sin so i will not ask for forgiveness and ultimately, will probably go to hell. *shrugs* whatever floats your boat, i guess.

You're a stronger person than I am. I get all pissed off when someone passes another gay-marriage ban, or something like that. I understand the point of view, certainly... my dad, who I look up to and admire more than anyone, is a strict conservative on the gay issue. (Three guesses why I haven't come out to him yet.) But that doesn't mean that I still won't be bothered when other people think it's so wrong.

The thing that bugs me about people saying that the bible says Homosexuallity is an abomination, is the fact that they're pick and choosing what they want to say from it instead of following all the laws in the same book of the bible. Read Leviticus some time. along with homosexuallity, it's also wrong to wear polyester and rayon, it's sinful to eat fat from animals and a sign of peganism if you shave your sideburns. You can't just pick which laws you want to follow from the laws you're claiming to stay true to.

The bible is also only a collection of what the orthdox church wanted their followers to read and study. When the committee decided what books to put in, they chose what they believed to be cannon and in what they wanted people to believe. the rest of the books (apocrypha), even though historians say were used to teach the religion up until then, were concidered to be too gnostic or not cannon to the story they wanted to tell. So the bible itself is an edited version of the so called word of god. On top of that, it's been horribly mistranslated through out the years. Scholars are still trying to figure out how the church, post king james version, translated the literal words "Lifter of Couches" into homosexual in the book of acts.

Personally I can't find faith in such a garbled mess. Congrats to the people that do, that takes a lot of faith to do.

</rant-history lesson>

sorry... I normally don't post in the relgious debate threads, but I felt like randomly putting in my two cents.

[Rkolter]

Crap people, leave me NO talking points whatsoever why don't you?

Oh, I see how it is . . . first it's all "Woo, Kolter's Angels!" and now it's all "Hey, shut up and let me do the science talking!" There's just no pleasing you!

Now now, Angel Jim, don't you be like that.

Here's a box of chocolate and a sharp stick.

[Joel Fagin]

...not based on any empiracal evidence...

You know, I bet a real scientist would be able to spell "empirical".

- Joel Fagin

[Faub]

The day that someone begins teaching intelligent design in my country outside of religion class is the day I walk into the cathedral with a big book of science and begin reading it out loud right next to the priests.

Quebec is not a country!

Lucky friggin Canadians. I have to live in this state.

[Ian Moulding]

Quebec is not a country!

Shh... The Quebecois have spies everywhere, and they're very touchy about those sort of comments.

[Wp]

...not based on any empiracal evidence...

You know, I bet a real scientist would be able to spell "empirical".

- Joel Fagin

False. It is a proven fact that everyone outside of elementary school does not know how to spell.

[Laemkral]

CJ and Ian, I love you guys. Thank you for pointing that out, I'd completely forgotten those points.