Literature, because you can't have opera

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Blackaby
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Post by Blackaby »

yeahduff wrote:I love Margaret Atwood. I admit I've only read The Handmaid's Tale and a short story called Happy Endings, or something, but I find the manbashing complaints greatly exaggerated.
Lessons I learnt from Atwood:

1. You'll never find a good man.
2. Your best friend is out to get you.
3. Women are horrible and can't be trusted.
4. Men are stupid and can't be trusted.
5. If you're unhappy, try sucide.
6. You can be a famous artist or author or social flower and your life will still sound more boring than clipping your toenails.
7. It's okay to be a feminist and hate women.
8. Photos make your ass look fat.
9. Don't dress sexy or be cool in any way. You'll either die, go missing, or end up in an asylum.
10. Even when you're 70, you'll probably still be writing angsty emo poems.
11. POPULAR GIRLS GO TO HELL.
12. Everything is a cry for help. No really. Everything.
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Post by McDuffies »

princess wrote:My favorite author of all time is Angela Carter Nights at the Circus , the Bloody Chamber and Wise Children are MAGIC. Her fairytale anthologies are also excellent.
I real "Magical toystore" and "Love" and loved them, specially the first one. Did I imagine it, or was "Lemony snicket" practically a rewriting of that book to be aimed at children?

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Post by Yeahduff »

blackaby wrote:
yeahduff wrote:I love Margaret Atwood. I admit I've only read The Handmaid's Tale and a short story called Happy Endings, or something, but I find the manbashing complaints greatly exaggerated.
Lessons I learnt from Atwood:

1. You'll never find a good man.
2. Your best friend is out to get you.
3. Women are horrible and can't be trusted.
4. Men are stupid and can't be trusted.
5. If you're unhappy, try sucide.
6. You can be a famous artist or author or social flower and your life will still sound more boring than clipping your toenails.
7. It's okay to be a feminist and hate women.
8. Photos make your ass look fat.
9. Don't dress sexy or be cool in any way. You'll either die, go missing, or end up in an asylum.
10. Even when you're 70, you'll probably still be writing angsty emo poems.
11. POPULAR GIRLS GO TO HELL.
12. Everything is a cry for help. No really. Everything.
Maybe you shouldn't be looking for lessons in literature.

The one novel of hers I've read was about a post-apocalyptic distopia where right-wing fundamentalist religious fanatics took over North America, systematically driving women into roles of servitude and submission, opressing their identities, confiscating all their property and money, restricting freedom over their bodies and their choices, effectively taking ownership of their sexuality, their relationships, their lives, where any dissent is met with a gruesome and public death if you're lucky, a slightly longer but even more horrible fate cleaning toxic and nuclear waste until you slowly rot away and die painfully. Considering, it's surprising Offred was so kind to the men she encountered and the women who supported the system.
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Post by Blackaby »

yeahduff wrote:
blackaby wrote:
yeahduff wrote:I love Margaret Atwood. I admit I've only read The Handmaid's Tale and a short story called Happy Endings, or something, but I find the manbashing complaints greatly exaggerated.
Lessons I learnt from Atwood:

1. You'll never find a good man.
2. Your best friend is out to get you.
3. Women are horrible and can't be trusted.
4. Men are stupid and can't be trusted.
5. If you're unhappy, try sucide.
6. You can be a famous artist or author or social flower and your life will still sound more boring than clipping your toenails.
7. It's okay to be a feminist and hate women.
8. Photos make your ass look fat.
9. Don't dress sexy or be cool in any way. You'll either die, go missing, or end up in an asylum.
10. Even when you're 70, you'll probably still be writing angsty emo poems.
11. POPULAR GIRLS GO TO HELL.
12. Everything is a cry for help. No really. Everything.
Maybe you shouldn't be looking for lessons in literature.

The one novel of hers I've read was about a post-apocalyptic distopia where right-wing fundamentalist religious fanatics took over North America, systematically driving women into roles of servitude and submission, opressing their identities, confiscating all their property and money, restricting freedom over their bodies and their choices, effectively taking ownership of their sexuality, their relationships, their lives, where any dissent is met with a gruesome and public death if you're lucky, a slightly longer but even more horrible fate cleaning toxic and nuclear waste until you slowly rot away and die painfully. Considering, it's surprising Offred was so kind to the men she encountered and the women who supported the system.
When a novel is classified as literature, and is studied by universities and schools, I think you'd probably be selling it short not to consider the prevailing themes and attitudes within it, and what message it gives to readers.

Personally I was amazed, considering its content, how utterly and incredibly boring that book was. It would be as if someone else had written Jurrassic park and instead of the dinosaurs going out on a rampage, they all sat around whining about how they didn't have anything to file their nails on and it was so much better in the old days.

I wouldn't call it kindness, because I don't think Offred actually possessed a personality of any description and any emotion would be somewhat beyond her. However if you consider everything short of stabbing people with a stick kindness, then I think they got of rather sweetly when she chose instead to bitch in her incredibly boring way about how they were unattractive and old and pathetic.
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Post by Yeahduff »

blackaby wrote: When a novel is classified as literature, and is studied by universities and schools, I think you'd probably be selling it short not to consider the prevailing themes and attitudes within it, and what message it gives to readers.
Well, yeah. Definitely. But a lot of those lessons you objected to can be found in Faulkner. A book isn't bad because the characters in it betray their best friends.
blackaby wrote: Personally I was amazed, considering its content, how utterly and incredibly boring that book was. It would be as if someone else had written Jurrassic park and instead of the dinosaurs going out on a rampage, they all sat around whining about how they didn't have anything to file their nails on and it was so much better in the old days.
Well, I didn't find it boring. But that's rather subjective. There's a lot of celebrated literature out there that can be described as boring, far more boring than Handmaid's Tale, independent of its subject matter. As for the "whining," well of course it was much better in the old days. It's a book about a distopia. That's gonna come up a lot. Matters involving emory boards and using butter as face moisturizer certainly weren't major concerns, just the little things that are more tangible in the day-to-day that also sucked. Plenty of time was given to public mob execution, torn bodies hanging from the university wall, and bizarre and degrading sex rituals, but the little things added texture, at least for me.
blackaby wrote: I wouldn't call it kindness, because I don't think Offred actually possessed a personality of any description and any emotion would be somewhat beyond her. However if you consider everything short of stabbing people with a stick kindness, then I think they got of rather sweetly when she chose instead to bitch in her incredibly boring way about how they were unattractive and old and pathetic.
Um, I did put a condition on the "kindness" comment. Anyone who goes through what Offred did and is a bouncy ball of sunshine is a person of pure evil. It would've been understandable if she did worse.

But whatever. You didn't like the book. I did. Awesome. I think everyone's heard enough of Yeahduff's opinions on stuff for the rest of the year, so if you wanna continue making snarky comments about the book, go ahead, I won't stop you. It might be more worth it to talk about a book you did like, though. Later.
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Post by Blackaby »

I object to that book because it was dumb, badly written, boring and made me hate women, especially Margaret Atwood.

And on that note I'm quite happy to stop there. It's far too hot over here to work up a coherent bitch about Atwood beyond OMFG SHE SUCKS DIE DIE DIE. Also, it's been a while since I've read that one, and I've very nearly managed to repress all memories of it. *joy* I'm sure if I keep reading good books and concentrating on the happy things in life I'll make a full physical and psychological recovery.

Or if I read the Ill Made Mute a few times I'm sure it's sheer horribleness will blot out the shortcomings of any other book with ease.

I've already been through the books I like.
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Post by JexKerome »

Well, I've always said that if a book fails to engage you either intellectually or spiritually, it's a failure.
Faith is what credulity becomes when it finally achieves escape velocity from the constraints of terrestrial discourse- reasonableness, internal coherence, civility, and candor. Thus, the men who commited the atrocities of September 11 were neither cowards nor lunatics of any sort, but Men of Faith- perfect faith- and this, it must finally be acknowleged, is a terrible thing to be.

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Post by McDuffies »

About a year ago I decided to turn to classics (my main read before that was postmodernism). I find mixed feelings, of course; Found Henry James very interesting, while Wirginia Wolf was, in return, very boring. Andre Gide was a surprise for me because he was very gripping from the first moment, "Caves of Vatican" turned out to be a smart and funny satire instead of some sort of tractate that I expected. Kipling dissapointed me, he seems childish and simple, and his "white people are superior to poor, dumb but good-hearted Indians" was irritating. I'd expect from a great writer to be above small darwinistic delusions.

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Post by Phact0rri »

my favorite books are always the classics. Oscar Wilde, Charles Dickens, Alex DUmas, Hemmingway, etc I'm such a dork I rarely read newer books.
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Post by Blackaby »

mcDuffies wrote:Kipling dissapointed me, he seems childish and simple, and his "white people are superior to poor, dumb but good-hearted Indians" was irritating. I'd expect from a great writer to be above small darwinistic delusions.
Wasn't that more a sign of the times he lived in?
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Post by Yummy Azn Boi »

phactorri wrote:my favorite books are always the classics. Oscar Wilde, Charles Dickens, Alex DUmas, Hemmingway, etc I'm such a dork I rarely read newer books.
oscar wilde is so great, i'd let him sodomize me any day!
=^_^=

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Post by CaptainClaude »

mcDuffies wrote:Kipling dissapointed me, he seems childish and simple, and his "white people are superior to poor, dumb but good-hearted Indians" was irritating. I'd expect from a great writer to be above small darwinistic delusions.
But you must admit. he does make exceedingly good cakes.

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Post by Mercury Hat »

blackaby wrote:
mcDuffies wrote:Kipling dissapointed me, he seems childish and simple, and his "white people are superior to poor, dumb but good-hearted Indians" was irritating. I'd expect from a great writer to be above small darwinistic delusions.
Wasn't that more a sign of the times he lived in?
Indeed it was. "White man's burden" and all that.
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Post by Toxic »

I finished The Confessions of Nat Turner recently (the William Styron historical fiction, not the original document). It's really hardcore.
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Post by DJMayhem »

Hee hee.

I'm actually making a reading list out of this thread.
You know, i should work on this.

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Post by Yeahduff »

Mercury Hat wrote:
blackaby wrote:
mcDuffies wrote:Kipling dissapointed me, he seems childish and simple, and his "white people are superior to poor, dumb but good-hearted Indians" was irritating. I'd expect from a great writer to be above small darwinistic delusions.
Wasn't that more a sign of the times he lived in?
Indeed it was. "White man's burden" and all that.
Yeah, but he was a major cheerleader for it, and it's irritating. He wasn't just reflecting the times, he was pushing that agenda hard.
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Post by Mo »

I haven't had much time to read lately. :(

I started a new book two days ago. Susan Kay "Phantom", fictional biography of the phantom of the opera.

...I like it so far. :P

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Post by McDuffies »

yeahduff wrote:
Mercury Hat wrote:
blackaby wrote: Wasn't that more a sign of the times he lived in?
Indeed it was. "White man's burden" and all that.
Yeah, but he was a major cheerleader for it, and it's irritating. He wasn't just reflecting the times, he was pushing that agenda hard.
In any case, I'd expect a great writer to be above the delusions of the times he lived in as well. Writer should be able to see a bit further than the average joe.

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Post by Phact0rri »

we need a CG book club!
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Post by Blackaby »

mcDuffies wrote:
yeahduff wrote:
Mercury Hat wrote: Indeed it was. "White man's burden" and all that.
Yeah, but he was a major cheerleader for it, and it's irritating. He wasn't just reflecting the times, he was pushing that agenda hard.
In any case, I'd expect a great writer to be above the delusions of the times he lived in as well. Writer should be able to see a bit further than the average joe.
I think they need X-ray vision too, and super sonic hearing. Maybe he was seeing further, just in the wrong direction? :D
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