Your opinion please

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That guy
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Post by That guy »

Best way to "spread faith" is to tell a story and let people take it however they want, no biases, no pressure. I'm raised Catholic - but I didn't ever READ the bible until I took a class that treated it as what it is: great literature. A story I can respect.

Just keep in mind the bible is MADE to be interpreted. It's NEVER definite. The original hebrew doesn't have vowels which means there are countless passages that literally could mean four or five things just on a literal level. As you'll know by now, the bible is also not the clean, sunday school version we're used to. There's war and blood and sex - Song of Songs alone is damn near text-porn. ;) The bible can be and IS so many things at once, it's obscure and mysterious... which is all the fun.

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Post by Blackaby »

If you want to use the Bible to examine your faith, then you have to be prepared to research it. Most people use it as a guideline (which means in most cases that they pick the bits plugged by mainstream Christianity and forget the bits they think are not so suitable). I think it's more important though to actually go through the stories individually and note those that are in major contradiction with others (for example, the ones where god is all-of-a-sudden not all-powerful and all-seeing). A few gnostic traditions believed there were two gods of the bible - one in the New testament, one in the Old.

You may also want to check out the Apocrypha and other writings that were removed from the 'official' bible... if you're actually serious about studying theology in this way. Really, if you want any peace of mind, I'd advise you start reading up on commentaries :) I can recommend John Shelby Spong's 'The Sins of Scripture' which examines those texts in the bible that seem completely at odds with the idea of a 'loving' god, and for a bit of fun, 'Summon's Christian Miscellany' by Parminder Summon, which has a lot of strange tidbits of Christian information you might find interesting.
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Post by McDuffies »

There are some excellent points made in this thread. Namely that not entire bible can be taken literally, but also that it shouldn't be completely rejected. Anything between those two is your personal choice.
On one level, you can simply take Bible as metaphore of morality; There are many worthy lessons to be taken out of it - I particularly like the ones that are often neglected and forgotten. I personally see Christianity as a religion based on love being that, hey, it says that God loves us all, and if nothing, that should inspire love among ourselves. New Testament teachs us to be less judgemental and more accepting to people's bad sides. I don't think that the message can get any more positive than that.
Many people nowadays see Christianity through how many people through the ages distorted it for their goals. They'll see crusade wars or some nutcase Tv preacher or whatever, but if you look closely at it, all of those are breaking some basic ideas written in New Testament. I don't think that Bible can be blamed for people finding a way to abuse it. People find a way to abuse everything.

I personally find religion to be one deeply personal and private thing. In fact, I think that discussing religion in public is a bit tacky. Any kind of convertion, be it a religious man trying to convert someone into believing, or an atheist trying to prove to a believer that there is no god, is rude. Religion is not a thing of intelect, it's a thing of emotion.
It's like when you love someone. This person can be the ugliest or the worst person in the world, no amount of arguements against him/her can change your mind about that. Because arguements work on intelect, but not on feelings. You can't know that there is/isn't God, but you can feel that there is/isn't one.

Me, personally, I've read pieces of New Testament (at least one Gospel entirely). I haven't read Old Testament, but I have it stacked for later reading. I'll be reading it more as literary work than a religious book though.

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Post by Boogiebop »

I think perhaps (and I'm certainly no expert in these things) that problem may be that you define yourself by your faith. Your personal life, your job, your hobbies, even your username. It all draws from the fact you're a Christian. My advice to you. One question you may have to ask is "without my faith, who am I?" which is certainly not a great point to start considering a question of this size.

My advice to you is to take some time out for yourself. Go walking or fishing or something, concentrate on yourself and find out who you are and whether you're satisfied with that before you start considering how religion fits into your life.

I may be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. But there you go.
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Post by Dr Legostar »

the bible doesn't need to have any bearing on your faith in god or jesus, the bible is a part of religion and while they are usually intertwined faith and religion are not necessarily the same thing. Have faith because you have faith, because you need to have faith, because you want to have faith, you don't need the bible or any other source to tell you how to have a personal realtionship with God, Jesus, Allah, Ganesh, Thor, whatever. Faith is about believing that there is something more to this world than what we see and feel and our existance is important, not only to us, but to something greater than ourselves.
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Post by Rkolter »

My preface - I was raised with only occasional religion in my life. For a few years I was actually a bible thumping, all praise to god Christian. I am, and have been for the last twenty years or so, pagan.

Without knowing what your crisis of faith is, aside from it being related to the loss of a loved one, I really can't advise you. When I have lost loved ones, I've taken comfort in my memories I've shared with them. I've always believed that a person who dies does not want us to to be miserable for their loss; they'd want the last lasting memory of them to be of good things, not sorrow.

I can offer you this - there are a large number of Christian faiths, each holding to a slightly different interpretation of the Bible. If you have lost your way, it's probably not an entire loss of faith in Christianity itself, but in the way you've understood Christianity. Maybe another take on the Bible would suit you better.

In any case, I hate to see someone feel bad over something that should make them feel good and that they can feel comfortable with. Good luck to you.
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Post by Nanda »

Haven't seen many atheistic points of view. I'll add my two cents, take it or leave it. I personally can not ascribe to any set of religious beliefs. I've tried religion - chose it on my own, in fact, as my parents are both non-religious - but ultimately found that religion in general, being a matter of faith, could never adequately answer any of my questions. I was raised to question anything and everything, human beings are inquisitive by nature, and it bothered me greatly that the church would tell me not to question, and just take things on faith. Even when there were answers, they seemed convenient, or contradictory. I didn't think it was unreasonable of me to think that if the church was the true path to salvation, it should be able to stand up to questioning. I've been told I've gone about it in the wrong way, and I even saw a few people in this thread suggest that it doesn't matter if the stories are true or not, all that matters is that you keep faith in your heart. But how can you keep faith when the foundation that faith is built on is flawed and unreliable? How can you say that the bible is a sacred text, then pick and choose the parts you're going to believe? And if it is only a bunch of stories meant to help you live better, well, then that's fine, but it kind of makes the rest of the trappings of Christianity pointless. If Christ was just a nice man who taught good life lessons, then the whole point of Christianity is defeated. (Fundamentalist Christians I know have made this same arguement.) The end result, for me, is an inability to believe. And honestly, I'd like to be able to believe in something, because I bet it's a whole lot more comforting, but belief is intrinsic; you can't chose to believe, you either do or you don't.

Two cents. I don't think I need to tell you to take it with a grain of salt.
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Post by Dr Legostar »

::takes nanda's comment with a pinch of Lot's wife::
-D. M. Jeftinija Pharm.D., Ph.D. -- Yes, I've got two doctorates and I'm arrogant about it, what have *you* done with *your* life?
"People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do." "yeah.. but we won't care."
"Legostar's on the first page of the guide. His opinion is worth more than both of yours."--Yeahduff
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Post by Nanda »

legostargalactica wrote:::takes nanda's comment with a pinch of Lot's wife::
Don't poke at her, she'll crumble.
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Post by Dr Legostar »

nope, just pinching.
-D. M. Jeftinija Pharm.D., Ph.D. -- Yes, I've got two doctorates and I'm arrogant about it, what have *you* done with *your* life?
"People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do." "yeah.. but we won't care."
"Legostar's on the first page of the guide. His opinion is worth more than both of yours."--Yeahduff
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Post by Rkolter »

Posted secondarily since it's not directly related to the topic, but related to something else said in the thread.

I too find it disconcerting when people say "All religions are basically the same."

At a distance, both people and religions look the same. People all have a head, two arms, two legs, a torso... religions all have a power they worship, generally have a personification of that power, have holidays (many closely shared), rituals, some kind of structure.

But when you get closer to both people and religions, they differentiate out. People have different genders, skin color, eye color, hair length, hair color, adornments, style of dress, languages, accents, tolerances for heat and cold, and so on. Religions have different closely held beliefs, different absurdities, different takes on life and on death, different rules they ask their followers to abide by, and so on.

While it is true that you can expect a specific set of things from any religion, that does not actually imply that all religions are the same.
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Post by Stinkywigfiddle »

Boogiebop wrote:I think perhaps (and I'm certainly no expert in these things) that problem may be that you define yourself by your faith. Your personal life, your job, your hobbies, even your username. It all draws from the fact you're a Christian. My advice to you. One question you may have to ask is "without my faith, who am I?" which is certainly not a great point to start considering a question of this size.
...
I think you raise a good point and I like what you said.

Just... wanted to say that :)
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Re: Your opinion please

Post by Dr Legostar »

4thalord wrote:..you won't get any saving from me right now.
this begs the question, there'll be saving later?
-D. M. Jeftinija Pharm.D., Ph.D. -- Yes, I've got two doctorates and I'm arrogant about it, what have *you* done with *your* life?
"People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do." "yeah.. but we won't care."
"Legostar's on the first page of the guide. His opinion is worth more than both of yours."--Yeahduff
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Post by KittyKatBlack »

stinkywigfiddle wrote:
Boogiebop wrote:I think perhaps (and I'm certainly no expert in these things) that problem may be that you define yourself by your faith. Your personal life, your job, your hobbies, even your username. It all draws from the fact you're a Christian. My advice to you. One question you may have to ask is "without my faith, who am I?" which is certainly not a great point to start considering a question of this size.
...
I think you raise a good point and I like what you said.

Just... wanted to say that :)
Seconded.

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Post by Boogiebop »

Aha. All those episodes of Riki Lake finally paid off.
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my story...

Post by Dreams »

hi! i haven't been on here for a long long time (probably a year) but my friend told me about this thread and i wanted to comment...

i grew up christian. in a christian home, with christian (baptist) parents, i went to a christian pre-school (he's got the whole world in his hands, etc), christian school from kindergarten to 8th grade, attended up to 3 youth groups in high school, as well as church weekly, and even a christian college for 2 years. i went on retreat after retreat, joined bible studies, cell groups, and even helped teach sunday school. if anyone should be a christian its me.

i've never really felt it tho.... i "knew" that the christian religeon was the "right" religeon, and even if i wasn't believing it, or had doubts, i still felt sure that jesus was going to save me from eternal damnation.

about a year or so ago, i gave up the ghost, however. i stopped trying to tell myself that what i should believe was right, and that there was something slightly wrong with me because i doubted it.

however, in deciding to become a non-christian (which is as much a decision as becoming a christian is), i had a last ditch sort of effort to save my faith. i doubled my efforts to be christian. i read more christian literature than before. and i basically realized that i was well and truely a non-christian.

i've had moments that i've realized that i was sad that i no longer could believe in such easy answers. (and they are easy.) its just not possible to make yourself believe something that your brain won't accept. its like if you were watching a documentary about a tribe that didn't have written language, but you found thier website. just keeps you from buying into whatever is being sold. and thats now how i feel about christianity. its something that church leaders do buy into and then try to sell you. I have the highest respect for those who can follow religeon, but i can't.

i want to encourage you to accept whatever your mind is telling yourself. its hard to realize that you might be wrong... reguarding religeon, or a choice you've made, or even that you can't cook what you thought you could. we all need to believe in ourselves as invincible, and right, otherwise we lack any sort of confidence, and start to disintigrate...

good luck with whatever path you choose. no choice for you now is going to be a simple or easy one. but i encourage you to question everything. if someone tells you to just give up, question that. if someone encourages you to keep going... question that too. question me. you need to find your own answers right now, and then build confidence in those answers!
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Post by EvilChihuahua »

My reccomendation: read "the case for faith" by lee strobel.
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Post by Phact0rri »

I grew up in a christian household as well, and though I'm no expert I will say that I doubt there is another book open to more interpretations than the bible.

however I agree with what some of the others said, about the bible not being the religious bit. Reading the bible allows what your religion wants you to know, however it is not your religion, it gives you comfort but it does not give you answers like a magic 8ball everytime you need it. For those answers you need to look into yourself. You need to think of your belief, and your faith, and the world around you.

Close your eyes, and pray... talk to your god and listen to the words your heart tells you.
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Post by Dutch! »

Am even simpler way may be to just take a look in the mirror. Are you happy with the view?
Remember when your imagination was real? When the day seemed
longer than it was, and tomorrow was always another game away?
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Post by McDuffies »

rkolter wrote:Posted secondarily since it's not directly related to the topic, but related to something else said in the thread.

I too find it disconcerting when people say "All religions are basically the same."

At a distance, both people and religions look the same. People all have a head, two arms, two legs, a torso... religions all have a power they worship, generally have a personification of that power, have holidays (many closely shared), rituals, some kind of structure.

But when you get closer to both people and religions, they differentiate out. People have different genders, skin color, eye color, hair length, hair color, adornments, style of dress, languages, accents, tolerances for heat and cold, and so on. Religions have different closely held beliefs, different absurdities, different takes on life and on death, different rules they ask their followers to abide by, and so on.

While it is true that you can expect a specific set of things from any religion, that does not actually imply that all religions are the same.
Well, as I said, I believe that religion is metaphore, materialisation, systematisation or whatever have you, of moral. I reason that by the fact that in all main religions, major sins are similar: killing, stealing, adultery, etc, things that are generally considered amoral. That, of course, differs from religion to religion so Budhists cannot drink alcohol while Moslems cannot eat pork, etc, commandments that usually have some sort of basis in culture, geographical, economical, etc, situation from which the religion grew. But basically, being good in any major religion comes down to that set of rules that even atheists will find right.
Also, with globalisation and all, there is an urge to make peace among religions and make them all respect each other. Thinking that everyone but members of your religion (whichever it is, it's minority of global population) will go to hell for disbeleaving isn't acceptable in modern society, so from that need grew conclusion that God is one, and that various religions believe in him in different shapes. It's partly logical, partly ilogical, but it is practical and works. Just like deism works with modern science which allows scientists to be religious.

Those things are basically how I understand that "All religions are the same" assesment.
I think perhaps (and I'm certainly no expert in these things) that problem may be that you define yourself by your faith. Your personal life, your job, your hobbies, even your username. It all draws from the fact you're a Christian. My advice to you. One question you may have to ask is "without my faith, who am I?" which is certainly not a great point to start considering a question of this size.
Great observation. Any time you try to define it one category, be it religion, philosophical theory or a rock group you're fan of, you start missing on a lot of things. Life's much, much more complicated than that. I don't like to think of God as someone who created us mainly to praise him. I like to think that he created us to live our lives and enjoy them. And then, if we accept that God created everything, isn't talking about anything of this world actually talking about God, through talking about his creations? By that logic, my comic is as much about God than 4thalord's.

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