Your opinion please

Killbert-Robby · Post by **Killbert-Robby** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:44 am

Boogiebop wrote:
jesusabdullah wrote:
rock_dash wrote:This has always dissapointed me, the same as people saying the human brain can only store 40 TB of data or whatever. I don't like to think that human potential can be measured by in such a simple way.
Dude! That's, like, a million mp3s right there!

(Seriously--That's about what it came to based on back of the envelope calculations!)
I'm now terrified of the RIAA ripping out my brain and using it in court.

It gets better. If you've seen your girlfriends tits when you were, say, 14, it means you're carrying illegal porn in your brain!

Jesusabdullah · Post by **Jesusabdullah** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:03 pm

We'd have to pay a license fee in order to merely listen to a song. That, or get our memories erased after the song.

Wow, the RIAA would be seriously shooting themselves in the foot if they did that. I bet they'd still do it though.

Boogiebop · Post by **Boogiebop** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:03 pm

Killbert-Robby wrote:
Boogiebop wrote:
jesusabdullah wrote: Dude! That's, like, a million mp3s right there!

(Seriously--That's about what it came to based on back of the envelope calculations!)
I'm now terrified of the RIAA ripping out my brain and using it in court.
It gets better. If you've seen your girlfriends tits when you were, say, 14, it means you're carrying illegal porn in your brain!

Oh shit

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:22 pm

I bet Kilbert-Robby doesn't have porn on his memory/brain yet.

Glarryg · Post by **Glarryg** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:31 am

Skylark King wrote:and don't get me started on churches... as near as I remember there's only one Bible story where Jesus even set foot in a chruch and it ended with him trashing the place.

Just for the sake of clarity, there are other stories about Jesus in temples, and they don't all end in destruction.

Glarryg

Rkolter · Post by **Rkolter** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:18 am

4thalord - I'm going to now offer an alternative perspective, take or leave as you will, based on my own faith. I offer it because you are questioning yours, and I suppose if I were in your shoes I'd want both faith and logical based discussions. I've already given you my logical answer.

I think there is a place for religion in humanity. Not necessarily in every person, but in a large number of them. I also think that when you die, so long as you are remembered, you aren't really gone. Although your body and brain are long dead, an impression remains.

It really sounds like you loved your mother - not everyone does. Therefore what I would do were I in your situation, would be to treat your memories of your mother with kindness - discard the memories (we all have) of bad times, and cherish the good times. And when you make life altering decisions, pretend as if your mother was alive. Imagine the conversation you would have. Use your memories of your mother as a sounding board.

In the end, how you live your life, including how you choose to nourish that part of you that wants to believe, is up to you. Just because your mother has passed on doesn't mean you can't summon up your memories of her to get guidance.

Killbert-Robby · Post by **Killbert-Robby** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:31 am

I'm going with Kolter on this one. I'm sure there have been plenty of times that you didnt something because you thought "Mamma wouldn't approve". Just because she's gone doesn't mean you don't know what she'd want. Hell, keeping her in mind while you live your life is probably the deepest respect you could show her.

Skylark King · Post by **Skylark King** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:47 am

Glarryg wrote:
Skylark King wrote:and don't get me started on churches... as near as I remember there's only one Bible story where Jesus even set foot in a chruch and it ended with him trashing the place.
Just for the sake of clarity, there are other stories about Jesus in temples, and they don't all end in destruction.

Glarryg

Yeah, I was sure I was missing a few... I actually remembered the Jesus as a kid story where he was teaching religious leaders at, I think, 12...

Maybe I base most of my knowledge of the Bible from Jesus Christ Superstar and Ben Hur... and the Super Mario Brothers Super Show (now on DVD)

4thalord · Post by **4thalord** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:26 pm

rkolter wrote:Now, to be fair, there is tremendous proof of the existance of a human named Jesus, who willingly or not ended up founding a religion.

Find it. Link it. I am very interested in finding it. So far my studies have led me to the conclusion that Jesus of Nazareth, as he is submited in the bible, NEVER ACTUALLY EXISTED.

I am challenging you because I would love to see some historical proof of Jesus existance. I have searched for the last week and found nothing. Nothing at all.

Killbert-Robby · Post by **Killbert-Robby** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:17 pm

Well considering he even shows up in the Islam religion (as a prophet, not the son of God) I think it would be safe to assume that he did exist, but as Kolter said, not as the son of God, but rather just a really nice guy.

Yeahduff · Post by **Yeahduff** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:49 pm

Christianity was kickin around for six hundred years at that point, largely in the same region that birthed Islam, so that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

But didn't you study these kinds of things when trying to be a minister, 4th? Surely you've come across something.

Jesusabdullah · Post by **Jesusabdullah** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:39 pm

This all got me to looking this stuff up on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

It's fairly interesting. I always assumed that there was more support for a historical Jesus than this seems to suggest there is. This is probably because my history teacher was a born-again Christian that really didn't leave much room for argument in his teachings when it came to this stuff. Still, the reading suggests that it is possible, even somewhat likely, that a Jesus lived, even if Jesus didn't do some, many, or even most of the things he was supposed to have done.

Something else I also picked up along the way: Another religion that believes in Jesus as in The Bible, which I had never heard of (or had, but had forgotten--likely):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith

I guess they're fairly new, and that they believe that the teachings of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all valid, except where overridden by successions? It suggests, basically, that they are all manifestations of the same God, trying to make His/Her great message clearer as society becomes more able to understand? This is my impression, anyway.

Jesus's disambiguation page is also worth looking at.

4thalord · Post by **4thalord** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:25 pm

yeahduff wrote:Christianity was kickin around for six hundred years at that point, largely in the same region that birthed Islam, so that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

But didn't you study these kinds of things when trying to be a minister, 4th? Surely you've come across something.

No. Believe it or not the majority of the 'histroical' evidence your fed is written by the churches. The only solid evidence of the existence of Iesu (possibbly Ieshua) son of Iosepphus is a roman note from approximately the year 40 where it is writted that Iamas (who was also son of Iosepphus) was crushed to death with rocks outside of nazareth five years after his brother was crucified for the same crime: blasphemy against the Israelite religion.

the church feeds you lots of lies, it seems about all the historical evidence of Jesus. If a kid in my church had a question about the exiswtence of Jesus all I had to do was hand him any one of the books I kept in my office. All of them talked about how real Jesus was. All of them were written by the church.

I don't have belief of god in my heart at the moment but I wish I could ask forgiveness for all those times when I helped spread these horrible lies. I went out behind the house four days ago and burned a bunch of these books at dawn when I stayed up all night checking their bibliograph sources.

Jesusabdullah · Post by **Jesusabdullah** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:46 pm

Book burning?

I like to keep all books, even if they suck or obsolete or full of filthy lies (with the exceptions of things like phone books and stuff).

(Makes me think of Dinosaurs By Design, which I totally have, and whose arguments I accepted as plausible for many years.)

What about the disciples and stuff? Like, the people that wrote the New Testament? My quick and totally not-throughout research indicated that at least some of them were real dudes.

Nyke · Post by **Nyke** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:10 pm

4, I'd suggest you e-mail Dan Barker about this. He was an evangelist preacher that became an atheist, and he's probably came to the question of Jesus's existance himself. He might either know about other documents you haven't, or he might just reaffirm your claims.

Stinkywigfiddle · Post by **Stinkywigfiddle** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:21 pm

jesusabdullah wrote:What about the disciples and stuff? Like, the people that wrote the New Testament? My quick and totally not-throughout research indicated that at least some of them were real dudes.

I read that those books probably were not written by those people but by some other folks who just used their names.

I was reading Reincarnation: The Missing Link in Christianity, by Elizabeth Clare Prophet. Interesting stuff.

*edit*

I am tempted to buy Dinosaurs by Design just to see what all the fuss is about.

Yeahduff · Post by **Yeahduff** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:27 pm

I dunno. Seems like the New Testament and the apocryphal texts should probably be proof enought that he at least existed.

Not that it matters. Christianity is a valid way of life, even if no one's soul actually gets saved. It contains a strong morality system, advocates letting go of self-absorbtion and taking care of others, and gives people something to hope for. You'll see that once your anger goes away, even if you don't go back.

Dreams · Post by **Dreams** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:39 am

yeahduff wrote:I dunno. Seems like the New Testament and the apocryphal texts should probably be proof enought that he at least existed.

by this arguement, King Arthur was also real, because there are texts all over Brittan about his life. The legend of King Arthur was beneficial for the early britts because it gave them courage, and whatnot. King Arthur was and ideal to strive for, just as Jesus is. Doesn't make them real, however. And if there was a real person whom King Arthur was based on, he probably has as much resemblance to the legend and the historical Jesus has to his counterpart, which many of his followers don't even want to acknowledge that as a jewish man, he would've either been married or his lack of marriage would have been very much noted.

Joel Fagin · Post by **Joel Fagin** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:11 am

Dreams wrote:by this arguement, King Arthur was also real, because there are texts all over Brittan about his life. The legend of King Arthur was beneficial for the early britts because it gave them courage, and whatnot. King Arthur was and ideal to strive for, just as Jesus is. Doesn't make them real, however.

There is a notable difference. The legends of Arthur are just that. The legends of Jesus, however, were written down by people who knew him.

There's something to be said for an eyewitness account.

- Joel Fagin

Ian Moulding · Post by **Ian Moulding** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:08 am

4thalord wrote:
rkolter wrote:Now, to be fair, there is tremendous proof of the existance of a human named Jesus, who willingly or not ended up founding a religion.
Find it. Link it. I am very interested in finding it. So far my studies have led me to the conclusion that Jesus of Nazareth, as he is submited in the bible, NEVER ACTUALLY EXISTED.

I am challenging you because I would love to see some historical proof of Jesus existance. I have searched for the last week and found nothing. Nothing at all.

The first thing you need to understand is that historical standards of evidence deal in probabilities. Based on the evidence available, is it more likely than not that certain events happened in certain ways?

Based on the evidence available it is more likely than not that a woman named Mary had an inconvenient pregnancy, was married off to an older man named Joseph to cover up the scandal, and the resulting child grew up to be a troublemaker.

The biblical version of this troublemaker is the mythical version, with stories added on to make his life match pre-existing prophecies (The bit about Bethlehem. Roman authorities didn't make people leave their homes for a census). The stories recorded by Jewish scholars tell a different version of that same life, but there's enough match between the two versions to point to a core of truth somewhere.

The second thing you need to understand is that the internet is a lousy place to do this sort of research. If you really want to get into this material, call a Religious Studies professor or TA at a secular college or university and ask them for the names of a couple of books. Any material you find on this subject will be biased one way or the other, but the stuff you find on the internet isn't subject to any sort of academic standards - For the most part, it's crap thrown at the screen.

The third thing you need to understand is that this need for Literal Truth is a very modern, Western idea. It came out of the Reformation, with different factions of Christianity fighting to prove which group could be the most orthodox (It's also relatively recent in Islam, for similar reasons). Most people don't give a damn about the literal truth of their religious stories. Religion isn't about fact, it's about moral teachings. If the teachings are good, if the way of life they talk about is good, who cares if Lao Tzu/Jesus/Buddha never actually existed/walked on water/burned a hole in a rock with his gaze?

Does it matter if Genesis is contradicted by modern astrophysics? Or should we be more concerned with what the story has to say about the moral place of humans in the structure of creation?

Getting a little less abstract, the whole idea that if you don't believe in Jesus you're going to go to hell is an insult to God. Jesus was born at a time when communications were limited to (On good roads, with good couriers) 30 miles a day. If Jesus's message is truly the One and Only Way, then God deliberately left hundreds of millions of people out of any hope of Heaven. If Jesus's message was one path out of many, then a lot of Fundamentalists are going to be very pissed - But a lot of good people will get what they worked for and earned. Your mother is fine.