I would respect this comic much more...

I would respect this comic much more...

Postby Worthless-Online on Mon Jan 27, 2003 4:53 pm

...if you clearly stated somewhere on your site that you've directly lifted the idea for your comic, the style, certain characters, etc. from Lucasarts' classic adventure game "<A HREF=http://www.lucasarts.com/products/grim/default.htm>Grim Fandango</A>." Or did you and I missed it? If so, sorry to bug you and nevermind.
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Postby Indybuda on Mon Jan 27, 2003 6:15 pm

WELLLLLLL.

I'd state that if it were true. But it's not. Since I've started the strip I've had it pointed out to me a coupla times that it reminded people of Grim Fandango. But, and here's the real bite in the ass... I don't play video games so it wasn't remotely a factor. Sorry you can't respect a parallel line of originality and thanks for calling me an "intellectual property thief."
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Postby Kevin Wolf on Mon Jan 27, 2003 6:20 pm

The calavera tradition in Mexican folk art goes back probably centuries. Grim Fandango itself was a hodgepodge of old calavera woodcuttings, Mexican day-of-the-dead spiritualism, and film noir. A great game, but itself not exactly a masterstroke of original thinking.

"Hotel Grim" has in similarity to "Grim Fandango" only a main character who wears a tux and has the last name "Calavera" and the word "Grim" in the title. If you read around, you will discover that the name "Hotel Grim" was actually taken from a derelict motel, and the superficial resemblances between Dods and Manny Calavera are exactly that...superficial.

I'd respect you a lot more if you did a little more research before making asinine observations.
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Postby Indybuda on Mon Jan 27, 2003 7:02 pm

Thanks Kevin! Good to see you back around.

I was just coming back to give a rant on calaveras when I saw that you'd already tackled it.
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Postby KedaDibandion on Mon Jan 27, 2003 7:05 pm

First of all, a hearty "hell yeah" to what Kevin said.

Secondly, Worthless-Online...uh, may I call you Worthless? Okay, even with my limited knowledge of Mexican folklore and such, I recognized a lot of elements of it in Hotel Grim. And I see some in that blurb of Grim Fandango. *shrug* They both borrowed elements from the folklore of the same culture. And take a look at the original link bar for Hotel Grim. That's from a photo of the actual hotel, I believe. So, yeah. Fuck off.
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Postby Indybuda on Mon Jan 27, 2003 7:11 pm

:lol:
Heeeee...
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Postby Worthless-Online on Mon Jan 27, 2003 7:13 pm

Let's assume that it's possible he didn't know a thing about Grim Fandango before he started (which I find so hard to believe that my balls hurt)--James Bond and the 00s are based on real people and a real program. Since Ian Fleming and Cubbie Broccoli were the first to bring it to the screen, anyone else who makes a movie about a British secret agent who dresses nice, uses gadgets, and kills people is considered a <I>RIPOFF</I>. That's how it goes. Whomever gets first dibs on the subject matter is considered the original dealer. Same goes with Indiana Jones and its countless clones (The Mummy, Tomb Raider, etc.)

It would also be like if I made a sci-fi movie about an empire that controls the universe and the lead character's name was "Johnny Skywalker." "But I only named it that because my best friend loves to sky jump, and we always call him 'The Skywalker.'" Regardless if that's the truth and I had created everything independently of Star Wars, it would probably be better if I didn't make the movie.

I'm not saying he's a bad person, I'm just saying that too many things line up to have it be just a "coincidence." If you want to ignore them, that's fine. Do that. When someone--like me--simply asks questions like these and comments such as yours are fired back, it's obvious I've struck a very sensitive nerve.

To Indybuda: when someone uses quotes in the way you did (<I>"intellectual property thief."</I>), it implies that the person they're responding to has said those words exactly. I didn't. I was just curious because I'm a huge fan of GF, and any intelligent person who had played the game and seen your comic would have been just as curious. Maybe you should check it out.

On a side not, Grim Fandango is much better. Possibly 400 times better. Not to say your comic is bad, but Grim Fandango is just that good.
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Postby Worthless-Online on Mon Jan 27, 2003 7:15 pm

Must be illegal to think independently around here...
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Postby Indybuda on Mon Jan 27, 2003 7:25 pm

Do you know what the word "Calavera" means? It means Skeleton. That's where the fucking last name came from. Prolly for both of us.
And yeah, I imagine that a video game from Lucas Arts just may be a bit more entertaining than a gloomy lil comic strip.

There really is a Hotel Grim in my Hometown. And I've been inundated with Mexican Culture my entire life since I grew up in Texas.
The original name for the comic the characters were to be in was "Delerium Tremens" and I changed it after the artist backed out.
Why don't you go to http://ironshamrock.keenspace.com and check out the first version of Dods on the one-off strip there. That was roughlya year and a half ago. I have no idea when Grim Fandango came out though, so I dunno.

Meanwhile... It's not a crime to think freely, but you came in and accused me of not doing so. For that, I'd like to make your balls hurt with disbelief too.
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Postby KedaDibandion on Mon Jan 27, 2003 7:26 pm

Worthless-Online wrote:Must be illegal to think independently around here...


Hell no. I just don't see any independent thoughts in anything you said.

Worthless-Online wrote:Let's assume that it's possible he didn't know a thing about Grim Fandango before he started (which I find so hard to believe that my balls hurt)--


Well, I never heard of the game before. And I really don't give a rat's ass about the condition of your balls, thanks... :-?

Worthless-Online wrote:Whomever gets first dibs on the subject matter is considered the original dealer.


So, we should get pissed at the Grim Fandango people for stealing from Mexican culture?

Worthless-Online wrote:I'm not saying he's a bad person


You'd better not be, 'cause that would make me really upset. :evil: But I didn't think you were.

Worthless-Online wrote:On a side not, Grim Fandango is much better. Possibly 400 times better. Not to say your comic is bad, but Grim Fandango is just that good.


Uh...'k...you know that comics aren't playable, right? I mean, it's completely different...not really comparable... :-?
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Postby Worthless-Online on Mon Jan 27, 2003 7:53 pm

<I>Hell no. I just don't see any independent thoughts in anything you said.</I>

I was dependent of..?

<I>So, we should get pissed at the Grim Fandango people for stealing from Mexican culture? </I>

Mexican Culture isn't fiction and entertainment. You can use <I>life</I> in your fiction, but you should <I>never</I> use FICTION to make your fiction. I'm sure you can tell the difference.

<I>Uh...'k...you know that comics aren't playable, right? I mean, it's completely different...not really comparable...</I>

If you knew anything about the game, you'd know that it's basically a humorous interactive <I>story</I>. Characters more interesting, story better, jokes funnier. That kind of thing. So yes, they are comparable.

Again, you have a good comic, it's just that GF is so, so good.

<I>Well, I never heard of the game before. </I>

Then really, your opinion isn't valid.

<I> That was roughlya year and a half ago. I have no idea when Grim Fandango came out though, so I dunno.</I>

1998.

<I>Meanwhile... It's not a crime to think freely, but you came in and accused me of not doing so. For that, I'd like to make your balls hurt with disbelief too.</I>

If you came up with this all on your own, then I'm sorry I accused you of doing otherwise. But my other statement still stands--despite the possible <I>fact</I> that you came up with all of this on your own, it's still very much--in my opinion, too much--similar to Grim Fandango. And as long as it is, it will never truly be considered new.

And the "independent thinking" comment was more directed towards everyone coming in and saying the same thing "you're wrong, here's why, and fuck off", and then you saying, "yeah, way to go dude." (<<---paraphrasing.)

But anyway, good luck with your comic, and I really do encourage you all to check out Grim Fandango.
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Postby Indybuda on Mon Jan 27, 2003 8:01 pm

There's a difference between agreeing with someone and being a sycophant.

And there's a difference between an apology and a grudging acceptance of possibility.
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Postby KedaDibandion on Mon Jan 27, 2003 8:03 pm

Worthless-Online wrote:And the "independent thinking" comment was more directed towards everyone coming in and saying the same thing, and then you saying, "yeah, way to go dude." (<<---paraphrasing.)


'k, so I can't agree with someone else without you thinking I can't think independently? What a skewed view. :S

Uh, I don't really feel the need to reply to your ramblings anymore, since you don't really seem to be reading/understanding what I'm saying.

Yeah. To quote Men In Hats, which I'm sure will cause me again to be told I can't think on my own, "The knowledge that you exist is a burden on my soul."
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Postby Indybuda on Mon Jan 27, 2003 8:12 pm

Frankly you crossed the line with yur second post and continued to make me lose any respect I would have had for you with each new one.

But when you told Keda that her opinion wasn't valid because she'd never heard of the game, you just pissed me off.

Why is it that every water-headed crack baby out there is perfectly willing to give voice to their obnoxiousness yet refuses to give anyone else the same option?
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Postby Decidedly NOT Templar on Mon Jan 27, 2003 8:13 pm

Yknow
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Postby Kevin Wolf on Mon Jan 27, 2003 8:22 pm

Worthless, I've played Grim Fandango, and unless you've played a different version of the game than the one I had, you are vastly overstating the similarities between these two creations.

Grim Fandango: "Casablanca" with skeletons.

Hotel Grim: A morose little comic strip about a bunch of misfits stuck forever together in purgatory, exactly one of whom happens to be a calavera.

The character of Dods is the only character in the entire strip that you could argue is "stolen" from LucasArts (unless there's a Mexican wrestler in Fandango, I don't remember), and even then the only resemblance is purely physical [check out some old calavera woodcuttings by the likes of Posada (I think his name is)--you'll see that they're often depicted wearing formal wear...buried in their "Sunday best"].

Don't come in here making ludicrous accusations and not expect Chris and his mates to come to his defense.

Especially when you're wrong.
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Postby Indybuda on Mon Jan 27, 2003 8:22 pm

Alright guys... thanks for the various defenses and such... I'm gonna log off, go grab some food and call Keda. Night all.
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Postby Worthless-Online on Mon Jan 27, 2003 8:25 pm

<I>There's a difference between agreeing with someone and being a sycophant.</I>

I wasn't trying to flatter you or please you! Hah! You might be trying to flatter yourself, though.

<i>And there's a difference between an apology and a grudging acceptance of possibility.</I>

Yeah, there is. I was apologizing if it's true that you have no knowledge of the game. Since I don't have a clue whether or not that's true, I can't say that I do! I was just trying not to be a fucking asshole, asshole.

<I>k, so I can't agree with someone else without you thinking I can't think independently? What a skewed view. </I>

Agree all you want, but don't keep saying the same thing over and over again.

<I>Frankly you crossed the line with yur second post and continued to make me lose any respect I would have had for you with each new one.</I>

How's that, by giving my opinion?

<I>But when you told Keda that her opinion wasn't valid because she'd never heard of the game, you just pissed me off.</I>

What?! Her opinion ISN'T valid, you moron! This whole thing is about whether or not your comic is similar to GRIM FANDANGO! If she's never even HEARD of it, she can not offer anything valid to the conversation for either side....because she doesn't know both sides! I'm not saying she hasn't a valid opinion <I>ever</I>, I'm simply saying in this conversation she has information for only one side.

<I>Why is it that every water-headed crack baby out there is perfectly willing to give voice to their obnoxiousness yet refuses to give anyone else the same option?</I>

Way to make my point. And nice touch with the "water-headed crack baby" comment. QUITE hilarious.
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Postby KedaDibandion on Mon Jan 27, 2003 8:29 pm

indybuda wrote:and call Keda.


Yay! :D <3!


Oh, and Worthless...consider your point made, and fuck the hell off. Pretty please? I wish Indy had his mod mallet back. :evil: Dagnabbit.
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Postby KedaDibandion on Mon Jan 27, 2003 8:44 pm

Worthless wrote:What?! Her opinion ISN'T valid, you moron! This whole thing is about whether or not your comic is similar to GRIM FANDANGO! If she's never even HEARD of it, she can not offer anything valid to the conversation for either side....because she doesn't know both sides!


Uh. Okay, now that was just incredibly rude. Don't you fuck with me, boy.

Don't.

I think you'll find that what I remarked upon previously was pertaining to Hotel Grim's ties to Mexican folklore and the game's obvious ties to the same. I said nothing more about the game, obviously, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW A DAMN THING ABOUT IT OTHER THAN WHAT THAT PAGE SAID. And I didn't claim to know anything more. My arguement was a defense, not an attack. You're the attacker here.
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