Dynamics

Phact0rri · Post by **Phact0rri** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 12:19 pm

This is a two parter

Somthing I've noticed about my art is that even when I depict motion, my characters look like they are posing and not moving. Anyone know some resources to help me with this?

The second part is expressions, I know manga/anime style has a lot of lines and a change of anatomy, to show expressions. I use traditonal animation style stuff like Tex Avery jaw drops, and big dr. seuss grins and things. but i'm looking more into the figure/face drawings and lines that bring out laughter, anger and what not. any hints or help?

thanks in advance.

Chaos Cricket · Post by **Chaos Cricket** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 12:38 pm

I dunno about trying to make your drawings look more animated (it's a problem I have myself), but I think I can help with the second part. A lot of expression comes from the eyes and eyebrows. You can make a character look angry, quizical, tired, or whatever just by changing the angle of the eyebrows. Mouths are also pretty expressive without being exaggerated. Clenched teeth, open-mouth smiles, etc. all help a lot.

Hope that helps.

Thingschange · Post by **Thingschange** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 12:44 pm

This is a technique I learned studying film actually but it applies equally to comics. If you keep all motion in each frame going from left to right it appears more dynamic. The best example of this is tin-tin... the author once redrew an entire book just to flip his action around to left-right.

(quick aside: when drawing horror or "tension" have the characters moving from right to left).

Obviously this only applies to western english speakers... if you are writing a manga with a large japanese audience then you can just simplify this to keeping the action moving towards the next panel.

Another technique from film you can abuse is a specific kind of motion blurring... When recording on video, each image is actually made up of two halves (called fields) joined together on alternating lines. These fields are filmed one after the other. So when you video a fast moving object it can appear in 2 different places at once. Once in each field.

Technical explanations aside how to duplicate this for art is to draw the object (let's say a foot doing a karate kick) once in position, then a slightly blurry ghost image of it moved over a few milimeters in the direction in which its moving. Anyone who has seen television has built into their brains that this means motion.

Okay, so I'm better with film than I am with comics. Still, these techniques may help you a little. I'm going to keep reading this thread because I could use some help making my pictures look dynamic too.

Gage Kronos · Post by **Gage Kronos** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:27 pm

I agree with Mr. Chaos Cricket on emotion portrayal: It's all about the eyes. When you look at someone to try to figure out what they are feeling at the moment you look at their face, right? But specifically the eyes will tell you more about their current emotional state than the rest of the face. This is actually one of the reasons why eyes in anime/manga are drawn so big as well.

Faub · Post by **Faub** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:46 pm

Expressing true fear, laughter, joy, etc. with a realistic face is HARD. The best reference I found for a scream was on a Hammer film poster, believe it or not. A furrowed brow, the squint of an eye, everything builds up the emotion and it's very difficult to represent because it's difficult to find good references.

Body language is also important. It won't matter what the character's expression is, if he's standing stock still with a look of genuine terror on his face the drawing will fail to express any emotion. Instead, if the character cringes with a look of terror, the image is complete and the reader feels for the character. Disney uses quite a bit of body language in their animation, especially the older stuff.

Phact0rri · Post by **Phact0rri** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:14 pm

A fellow film student exellent. yeah I take a lot of what I learn about film to my comics. and I thing sequence isn't my problem. What I mean is form, say when a guy is punching another guy.. it should look like he's punching not like he's standing still pausing. if that makes sense? I know there are a lot of good american comic artists who shine because of this. and I have been looking through old comics to try to get better at dynamic movements. as aposed to just regularly drawing them.

Realistic faces are trickier, Faub I agree, and usually in real life it has more to do with how the body moves and body language. limp shoulders bowed heads slow lumpy movements depict sadness... for example. And It is a really tricky subject, and well for my comic I don't have to deal with that much in terms of realism as I've been trying to keep it really cartoony. As apposed to really detailed. but I've been playing with more detail in my work, is sports that work.. and I want to give Decypher a level of realism in art, but I don't want it to over shadow the sureality of the strip. which i think is one of the benefits of a lesser-detail work. Specifically when my comic comes to play.

I suppose more so I should just experment more see what works and what doesn't. I was just hoping to see if anyone had any resources....

but keep this up, share your ideas. Chuck thanks for your feelings mention and Gage as well. I'll play with some of the eyebrows and dimming eyes. my eyes are layed on as shapes (square and circles) and I actually move them and and the shapes to try to show off some levels of feeling. But its not as noticable as I'd like it to be I guess.

I'm glad I started this thread so maybe it'll help more than just me, which is always good.

Brockway · Post by **Brockway** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:45 am

What I mean is form, say when a guy is punching another guy.. it should look like he's punching not like he's standing still pausing. if that makes sense? I know there are a lot of good american comic artists who shine because of this. and I have been looking through old comics to try to get better at dynamic movements. as aposed to just regularly drawing them.

Ah, that stuff. That comes more from showing that the other person is getting knocked back. Like have the punch not just sitting static against the guys chest, have it already knocking him back, reacting from what was obviously a large force pushing him back away from it. I would do a sketch, but I suck at it too.

ShineDog · Post by **ShineDog** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:33 am

its hard to quantify, but a typical well emphasised punch that knocks someone down in a comic, would in reality have reduced there skull to goo.

exagerate it. movement can be wildly exagerated because there IS no movement. i cant spell.

http://www.simonbisleyonline.com/images ... edd8_B.gif - no one would ever fire a gun like this, but it looks like an action piece rather than a pose probably BECAUSE its an over the top stance. mix up your angles as well. it helps. i cant be bothered writing why i feel it helps but it does.

http://www.simonbisleyonline.com/images ... aine08.jpg - see?

i cant be assed exploring other sites for cool poses, but frankly, simon bisley rocks so hard that i neednt bother.

http://www.simonbisleyonline.com/images ... edd3_b.gif

ok thatll do.

ZOMBIE USER 18017 · Post by **ZOMBIE USER 18017** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 1:55 pm

Here's a little tutorial by polykarbon on drawing punches that look realistic.

http://www.polykarbon.com/tutorials/fighting/fight.htm

Dan Nicholls · Post by **Dan Nicholls** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 1:58 pm

A general rule that I was taught in actual fights might work well towards this: Aim a foot past the guy's head.

Basically, when exagerrating something for effect, try out thinking ahead of the movement you want to portray by a bit. Sometimes thinking 'behind' works as well, like a pronounced windup to a punch.

Also, don't forget the garments! Clothing is a great medium for portraying movement--it doesn't always move at the same time with the body. In the old Carolingian style, movement was often suggested entirely apart from actual movement, but by the flow of the clothing. In an action sequence, clothing usually trails the body movement (say, the beginning of a punch), until the movement stops and it swings much like a pendulum (after the punch lands). Clothing is, basically, a series of hoops or light chains surrounding the body.

Of course, you can always cheat and use motion lines!

I likes 'em.

Noise Monkey · Post by **Noise Monkey** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 9:27 pm

phactorri wrote:Chuck thanks for your feelings mention and Gage as well. I'll play with some of the eyebrows and dimming eyes.

Cricket! You let them know your real name! Now they know who to send hitmen after...and they'll get to me because I know you! Way to go, chump...

But seriously, I know it sounds lame, but I learned most of how I draw from copying artists I liked. I mean, line for line. Of course, if you use any of that and call it your own, that's cheating....

Sopheia · Post by **Sopheia** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:22 am

http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/farp/figu ... ction.html In this one, look for the '2. Pose' part. Somewhere the author says: "An unbalanced pose conveys dynamics, action and motion, while a balanced pose results in a calm and tranquil image."

Another little trick we used in art class is using backgrounds as a means to make the eye go in a certain direction. I'll try to convey what I mean..

http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/fanq/g/i/ ... o.jpg.html Ok, in this picture your eye follows the dragon's 'movement' (from right-center, to center-top), then the background causes your eye to move in a half-circle (center-top, to left-center, to center-bottom), back to the characters, thus 'swirling' around them, and bringing the focus on them (especially the wounded one).
Now this is not really a 'movement' being conveyed, but it is still a dynamic drawing. (movement line like this (\<- )

http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/k/a/k ... 1.jpg.html Ok, in this picture, the girl herself does not move, but there is a sense of movement in the air. Your eyes move from left-bottom (following the clouds) to the girl. And the flowing hair depicts the wind. (movement line like this: ->/ )

http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/fanq/b/e/ ... e.jpg.html In this picture the background serves as an eye-track as well. The clouds and the position of the girl lead toward the girl herself (and even a little behind her) Your eyes go either from left-bottom or left-center to the center-center, and then move on to the right-top (where there is a break in the line). (movement line like this: ->:-')

Ok, what I'm trying to get at here, is that you don't have to use speed-line necessarily, because you can hide them in the background. Also, if you have a strong light in your picture, people will look at it from that point... thus if you have a picture full of complex lines... add a light and people will know where to start. Of course... this technique is also useful in layouting... if you draw a branch a certain way... people will follow it and reach the next picture, even if it is not in a 'standart' place (especially when your lines are a bit vague).

Ok, as for expression. There is a great tutorial out there, but it's for funny manga expressions. Still, it's better than nothing. http://www.seraphim-eyes.net/t004-1.html

Some other resources:
http://www.waynethedane.bizland.com/freebie.htm
http://animation.about.com/library/weekly/blesson9.htm
*WARNING*http://www.highend3d.com/maya/tutorials ... emotion.3d First couple of pictures are nudes... I'm *warning* you... (scroll down a bit for expressions.)

Phact0rri · Post by **Phact0rri** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:39 pm

hmms.. thats an idea I didn't think about exaggerating anatomy for desired effects. or possibly exaggerating background persepctive.

Thingschange · Post by **Thingschange** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:46 am

ShineDog wrote:exagerate it. movement can be wildly exagerated because there IS no movement.

"Don't try to move the characters, that's impossible. Instead simply try to realise the truth. There is no movement. Then you'll see that it is not the characters that move but you."

Sorry... matrix moment.

phactorri wrote:A fellow film student exellent. yeah I take a lot of what I learn about film to my comics.

Guess who ends up drawing all the storyboards for people in the class

.

Seriously, I find that everything about film and comic can be translated between the media. I personally think of comics as a very low fps animated film. The best thing about it though is you don't have to deal with actors and have complete control of everything in the story yourself.

Plus making a comic is nowhere near as stressfull, difficult or time consuming as making a movie.

Phact0rri · Post by **Phact0rri** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:04 am

yeah I do all the storyboards too... when we get into groups during seminar everyone was always begging to team up with me. Oh the tragedy. but I love doing boards wouldn't mind doing that professionally some day, on the side of being special fx guy.

Thingschange · Post by **Thingschange** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:27 am

phactorri wrote:yeah I do all the storyboards too... when we get into groups during seminar everyone was always begging to team up with me. Oh the tragedy. but I love doing boards wouldn't mind doing that professionally some day, on the side of being special fx guy.

Same here. Course I'm studying is a general film mainstream with extra modules for each specialisation. I'm specialising in editing and post-production audio. After this course I'm going to try to find somewhere that teaches CG effects and move down that path.

Being a comic artist would be great but it's not really an easy career to get work and I'm not especially talented, I think it will always be just a hobby for me. Still I love film as well so working in the film industry will be good as well.

DGC · Post by **DGC** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 2:08 am

thingschange wrote:
phactorri wrote:yeah I do all the storyboards too... when we get into groups during seminar everyone was always begging to team up with me. Oh the tragedy. but I love doing boards wouldn't mind doing that professionally some day, on the side of being special fx guy.
Same here. Course I'm studying is a general film mainstream with extra modules for each specialisation. I'm specialising in editing and post-production audio. After this course I'm going to try to find somewhere that teaches CG effects and move down that path.

Being a comic artist would be great but it's not really an easy career to get work and I'm not especially talented, I think it will always be just a hobby for me. Still I love film as well so working in the film industry will be good as well.

Heheh, film students unite, huh? I did a lot of storyboarding in my film projects too. One of the coolest presentations I saw was by a guy who graduated the same program as me. He did animatics on Spider-Man. They're basically animated storyboards. Makes a living doing these things and actually manages to get some input into the way things are shot.

In response to the actual question, I've usually just gone by the rule that in action poses, you should always be slightly late, so it's like you're just catching the follow-through motion. If you've got a dvd player, put in a good fight scene and freeze frame at different stages like the wind-up, the actual point of impact, and the follow through. Usually the most dynamic stills are at the follow-through right after the actual action.

Thingschange · Post by **Thingschange** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 6:34 am

I think that there's a large amount of cross-over between comic artists and film-makers. I'm hardly surprised that there would be a few of us film students here drawing comics for a hobby.

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 7:49 am

Phactorii, I don't know how patient you are, but I'm making a tutorial where one part will be about line faces and actieving face expressions without comic exageration. It'll be plugged here as soon as I finish it.

Gage Kronos · Post by **Gage Kronos** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 7:56 am

I'm not a film student, but at one point I wanted to become one.

I agree with the statements about storyboarding being similar to making comics. When planning out a comic, you have to figure out which moment in the action is substantial enough to warrant drawing...which is basically the same as the "key frames" you put down in a story board. Having briefly studied cinematography also helps a bit...though now I just need to figure out how to DRAW what I see in my head as my "perfect shot"...