Wrong lesson?

BJ · Post by BJ » Wed Sep 12, 2001 12:13 am

This is a huge tragedy. I still can't concentrate on much of anything.I would like to see those responsible punished for their crimes BUT: I want the punisher (probably the US military) to be sure those punished are most definitely responsible, and not some kind of scapegoat, as we (the USA) are wont to assign. And I want them to be punished--not completely, utterly and vindictively annihilated.People, all the calls to retaliate that I've heard so far are just people wanting blood for blood. Okay, so they attack us. We attack them. They counter attack in defence, feeling righteous, and we attack again, also feeling righteous. Blah blah blah blah blah.Violence solves nothing except population control, and it has a habit of spiralling dramatically out of control. I think war is sick, and I believe it's perpetuated by sick minds.Rann. Steve-o. You both have good points, but cool it a bit, at least until we have some clue as to what sort of action our government decides to take on our behalf. Diane & emmanuel, thank you for sharing your thoughts, and you also make some good points. And emmanuel, you're right. Nobody's blameless.------------------
Here comes a storm in the form of a <A HREF="http://www.jobeth.net" TARGET=_blank>girl</A>; she's the finest, sweetest thing in the world.

PsychoBlonde · Post by **PsychoBlonde** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 12:46 am

You're wrong, there, BJ. There are a great number of people who are blameless. Namely the thousands of people who were killed yesterday because some fanatical terrorists decided to 'prove a point' and attack our country. Yes, I consider the people responsible to be cowards. Just like the internet can cause people to say things they'd never have the courage to say to someone face to face, an attack like this, with no one claiming 'credit' for it, simply proves that whoever is responsible is incredibly cowardly. They attacked, and no run away and hide, hoping nobody finds out they did it. But we will. The people responsible for this attrocity will be found, and they will be punished. It won't bring back the thousands of people that they killed with their pathetic attempt at machismo, but perhaps it will let them rest a little easier.So yes, there ARE blameless people in this. But they're dead.-Caryn

Zodo · Post by **Zodo** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 1:11 am

I agree with Psychoblonde, especially on the issue of the testicular fortitude people get from being anonymously on the internet.(I've become so pissed at the writer of S.S.D.D., and his anti-american rantings, that i have now forsworn reading his comic strip.)I dare anybody who has anything to say in support of these bastards, or who says America has gotten what it deserves, to say those things out loud, at their local bowling alley, or Biker Bar.-Zodo

Joshua_w · Post by **Joshua_w** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 2:19 am

So far none of the posts on this thread have said that the USA deserved this (and indeed, NO-ONE should deserve this). Where did THAT idea come from?Also, no-one has said that it wasn't a horrible thing to have happen, or that it wasn't wrong, or that the perpetrators aren't really bad, or (and this is my favourite) that Saddam Hussein is as blameless as a baby lamb.Unfortunately, since everyone's emotionally charged right now, anything that anyone says is very easily misinterpreted. I could start trying to deconstruct a lot of these misinterpretations, but I'd probably end up saying something wrong, and it would all start over.Just....you know....CHILL on each other. Just because there's no-one to blame yet doesn't mean everyone has to turn on each other.Oh, and no more wishing death upon each other. That just creeps me out.--josh h.------------------
<A HREF="http://insidejoke.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>comic back soon</A> <A HREF="http://insidejoke.keenspace.com/forum.html" TARGET=_blank>forum's there</A> <A HREF="http://insidejoke.keenspace.com/keenada.html" TARGET=_blank>canadian comics are cool</A>

BJ · Post by BJ » Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:36 am

Trying to chill, but it's tough. I love everybody on this forum to bits, and I'm not trying to say whose opinion is right or wrong, I'm just trying to sort out how I feel, since I don't usually feel this way (which is good).Please, if anybody needs to rant, feel free.Everybody promise, though, to take each rant with a grain of salt, as we're all kind of charged up over this.------------------
Here comes a storm in the form of a <A HREF="http://www.jobeth.net" TARGET=_blank>girl</A>; she's the finest, sweetest thing in the world.

Daine · Post by **Daine** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 4:11 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Steve-o:

I disagree with you there. To brush this off, to not say it's wrong, and not to be furious about it dishonors them more. We have had war declared on us. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>i think we're all going to have to agree to disagree. this board is not for bitching at people for any reason, much less about something like this. like i said, arguing dishonors the people who died.

Imp · Post by **Imp** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 5:03 am

I think part of what makes us all feel on edge is that we all feel the need to do SOMETHING about this, but there's not really much most of us can do. We can really only sit back and watch and be shocked.I too hope that those who are behind this horrible attack are brought to justice. But it has to really be the culprits. It will only make things worse if we lash out at the wrong people.I think the best way for most of us to cope is to find constructive ways to deal with our grief. I'm donating blood on Friday. I'll be looking for other ways to help as well. I've been relieved that out here (Seattle), I've mostly heard compasionate words for the victims, and very little of revenge. Seattle has collected a record number of blood units. Seattle's search and rescue team has been sent to New York. People have been gathering in public places to comfort each other.I work at the Port of Seattle. We've worked with the Port of New York / New Jersey. The New York Port Authority rented over 10 floors of the World Trade Center. --Chris

StarrPolish · Post by **StarrPolish** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 6:40 am

the one thing we need to remember is that if/when those responsible are punished, it needs to be an attack on ONLY them, and not innocent civilians.
Because that, of course, would just be exactly what happened to us yesterday.

Emmanuel · Post by **Emmanuel** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 7:01 am

Greetings. i'm writing from Canada. Naturally, we were quite shocked and horrified by what happened Sept. 11. Our hearts go out to all those caught up in the tragedy, especially the deceased and their families.However, i am deeply concerned by the response to the strikes as well. i've often heard the term "cowardly" used to describe them, for instance. They may be so, but i feel the US has done this sort of thing to others, abroad.Look at the Gulf War: the US-led offensive utterly anhiliated the Iraqi infrastructure, dropping the country back to a preindustrial stage. Hospitals went without power, sewers backed up into the streets, emergency services couldn't cross the gutted roads and downed bridges, communications were dead, food processing and water purification plants were destroyed... and the harsh sanctions imposed, which continue to this day as i understand, only added to the devastation. Wars do, unfortunately, involve killing people, but this is precisely why the death toll should be minimised. On the contary, the gruesome offensive was designed to maximise damage to all sectors of the Iraqi populace. Such a thorough and systematic assault on civilian infrastructure was unnecessary, immoral, and a violation of the spirit (at least!) of the Geneva Conventions and Protocol, making it a crime of war.Did we care? Not much. i remember seeing broadcasts and updates on TV. It was almost entertainment. Things happening to people you don't know, half-way around the globe, don't seem real.And yet this is what it felt like. For the first time since Pearl Harbor, war has come to N.America (you can say "terrorism" if you like: the devastation is akin to warfare). There were other wars, of course: families sent their children away, many didn't come back. But buildings collapsing, people running for their lives, fires raging out of control, emergency services scrambling, communications interrupted, not knowing if your loved ones are alive or dead... We've missed most of that, and we're lucky for it.But when we support war in other countries, this is what we're supporting. When we sell arms abroad, this is the result.This doesn't diminish or excuse what happened Tuesday, of course. Words can't describe the devastation and loss of life occasioned by this disaster. But our ignorance doesn't diminish or excuse what we've supported, and may continue to support, elsewhere.When i shared my views on this with someone else who was watching the broadcasts, he answered "I don't know anyone in Iraq. I know some people in New York, so this is what I'm listening to right now." His reaction may be understandable, but it proves me right. And i don't _want_ to be right.The President said this was a "test" for the US populace. Maybe he's wrong about what sort of test it is. Perhaps this tragedy can help impress the true price of war in our minds. If we can learn from this, all those tragic deaths will not have been in vain.But i fear we may already have failed this test.
P.S. Thanks for the comic, BJ. i liked it very much.

Steve-o · Post by **Steve-o** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 8:42 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by emmanuel:
"I don't know anyone in Iraq. I know some people in New York, so this is what I'm listening to right now." His reaction may be understandable, but it proves me right. And i don't _want_ to be right.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's good, because you're not right. You're comparing the war in Iraq to WTC; that's ludicrous. The Palestinian conflict is about RELIGION.The Palestinians don't want the Jews to control Jerusalem because it's holy to them, because the Mosque is there. The Gulf War was about the Kuwaiti right to LIVE. It was a territorial dispute in which a people were CONQUERED, not for a philosophy, but for simple gain. Their right to live was taken away from them. And as for our ban on Iraq, you're talking about a dicator who kept his people in squallor in an effort to fund his military machine (which included development of nuclear and biological weapons). To say that America is responsible is ridiculous. Yes, America has stepped into foreign conflicts, but not over religion. We've stepped in where people were being tortured and abused; where human rights were being threatened. Many people disagreed with our involvement in Kosovo, but now we're hearing about soldiers who burned babies alive to torture their parents!For you to get on here and make light of this situation by somehow saying we brought it on ourselves is offensive in the extreme. And for you to take the deaths of thousands of people and use it to point a finger at my country angers me in the extreme.

Daine · Post by **Daine** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 10:06 am

please, no one fight.bickering about who/what is right and who/what is wrong just doesn't solve anything, and dishonors the memory of the people who died (and, if war or something starts, the people who *will* die).

Steve-o · Post by **Steve-o** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 10:42 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by daine:
bickering about who/what is right and who/what is wrong just doesn't solve anything, and dishonors the memory of the people who died (and, if war or something starts, the people who *will* die). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I disagree with you there. To brush this off, to not say it's wrong, and not to be furious about it dishonors them more. We have had war declared on us.

Rann · Post by **Rann** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 11:57 am

Anyone that does not see this as a great tragedy. Anyone who thinks America in some way deserves this. Anyone who thinks we shouldn't seek to punish those who did it, so that we can avoid war.
You make me sick. If only you had died instead of better people.

Steve-o · Post by **Steve-o** » Thu Sep 13, 2001 1:19 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kris:
Unfortunately, no matter what technological advances we've made in reference to warfare, unlike the propaganda of the Gulf War, it's not an exact science.If we "go to war" and attack a nation that is harboring terrorists, the American people are going to have to learn to accept civilian casualties as one of the conciquences.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The problem I'm having, and remember, I'm a right-wing gun-nut who eats babies and hates gay tree-hugging unwed homeless mothers, is Bush' statement that anyone who hides terrorists is just as guilty.While I'd like nothing more than to see ben Laden drawn and quartered on Pay-Per-View (should it come out that he's guilty), I can't seen going to war with Afghanistan. Yes, I believe we're at war; whether Congress officially says so or not is irrelevant, war has already been declared on us. But we're at war with the people who did this, not the country they live in.
On a side note, I believe that a "war on terrorism" will be about as effective as our "war on drugs." Fear will always be a tool of zealots. We need to try these people as war criminals, in an international court.

Rann · Post by **Rann** » Thu Sep 13, 2001 2:41 am

If we do not make those that harbor terrorists the same as the terrorists, there's no point in striking "just those who did it". Another group will rise up immediately, because the same government will be willing to harbor them.

Steve-o · Post by **Steve-o** » Thu Sep 13, 2001 7:53 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rann:
If we do not make those that harbor terrorists the same as the terrorists, there's no point in striking "just those who did it". Another group will rise up immediately, because the same government will be willing to harbor them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And what makes you think that paving over Afghanistan will prevent another group from "rising up immediately" to commit terrorist acts somewhere else anyway? Are you seriously going to tell me that bin Laden is responsible for all the terrorist acts in Iran, Palestine, Egypt, Israel, China, Ireland, etc. etc. ? No. There are always going to be terrorists; this Muslim group is not the only one of its kind. Wholesale slaughter is just stooping to their level.

PsychoBlonde · Post by **PsychoBlonde** » Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:54 am

It's not about wholesale slaughter. It's about finding out who did it, where they are, and eliminating them permanently. It will send a message to other groups that want to try the same kind of cowardly attack on civilians: No matter what you do, or where you hide, we will find you. And we will punish you.If we step on whoever did this, whether it was bin Ladin or someone else, and if someone steps up to do the same thing and we crush THEM, the next people who want to try the same thing may think twice, and not do it at all.Violence does not always solve violence. But in the case of terrorists, it might. And I, for one, would rather see the people responsible swing by the neck until they expire than let them get away with what they did. They're hiding, thinking they got away with it, and not owning up to what they did. They're cowards. They attacked civilians, killing thousands of people, and they're HIDING. They don't WANT to claim that they did it, because they know they'll be putting their heads on the block the moment they own up to it. And that is the ultimate act of cowardice.They're rabid little animals who need to be dragged out into the light and shot. End of story.-Caryn

Kris · Post by **Kris** » Thu Sep 13, 2001 11:07 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by StarrPolish:
the one thing we need to remember is that if/when those responsible are punished, it needs to be an attack on ONLY them, and not innocent civilians.
Because that, of course, would just be exactly what happened to us yesterday.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I've done my time in the US Military Machine, in intelligence actually. I cannot ever see the US targeting civilians...Unfortunately, no matter what technological advances we've made in reference to warfare, unlike the propaganda of the Gulf War, it's not an exact science.If we "go to war" and attack a nation that is harboring terrorists, the American people are going to have to learn to accept civilian casualties as one of the conciquences.Not that I'm comfortable even myself with it, but there's a reason they say..."War is Hell."JMHO,
Kris

Rann · Post by **Rann** » Fri Sep 14, 2001 12:45 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Steve-o:
 Unfortunately, the track record of the US Military, which isn't as rosey as the American news would have you believe, doesn't support your claim.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hey, screw you. The American people have NEVER celebrated the wholesale slaughter of civilians by dancing in the streets. We're better than they are.
And I know that those seem to count as "fighting words" nowadays. Everyone's big on everyone being just as good as the next person. "What, you think you're BETTER than me?" is a challenge that few would care to answer now.
But we're better than they are. Everyone bitches and moans about the USA having a superiority complex. Wanna know why? It's because we've supported almost every other country in the world, either financially or militarily. And in thanks, we're reviled and spit on, and pieces of scum like you all but say we deserved what happened to us, while whining that we need to preserve peace at any cost.
Go find a kid that lost his parent or parents to this. Tell him you know that terrorists murdered his parents and that people in other nations are celebrating it in the streets, but that you don't want to see the evil US military go in and hurt the poor, blameless people.
Just don't blame me when the kid starts screaming and everyone in earshot comes and beats the holy hell out of you, you worm.

Kurt · Post by **Kurt** » Fri Sep 14, 2001 1:15 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Steve-o:
 Unfortunately, the track record of the US Military, which isn't as rosey as the American news would have you believe, doesn't support your claim.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I have no illusions that such things didn't happen, but they have been isolated instances and not military policy. People in the heat of battle often do stupid things.I still stand by my claim that they will go to whatever lengths they need to to minimize the death of innocents (nobody can guarantee a complete elimination, and I never implied they could).Or do you actually believe that anyone at any level of the military heirarchy would sanction such actions?