From the KeenSpace mailing list...

Jackiesfridge · Post by **Jackiesfridge** » Sun Aug 19, 2001 6:58 am

Originally posted on the KeenSpace mailing list:One thing I find incredibly annoying, not about comics but cartoonists, is those who are constantly putting themselves down, denouncing their own work, saying how unworthy they are, et cetera. Apologies just bother me further and give me an even lower opinion of what you do, but confidence that you're doing all you can always leaves me feeling positive about your future in comics.Another peeve of mine is webcomics without maintained webpages. Unlike newspaper comics, webcomics are presented as an entire page at once - as an experience. Comics such as Tang's Weekly (http://tang.keenspace.com/) or Jackie's Fridge (http://jackiesfridge.keenspace.com/) have great comics, but their webpages just don't have any thought put into them. I'm not saying it has to be perfect, but I think a little attention to the colors and graphics is a necessity. After all, we're all artists here, right?
 My response:Not to sound whiny, but as the designer of the original Jackie's Fridge
site, I just have to say a few things.1: THANK YOU for reading Jackie's Fridge, and for mentioning it in the
mailing list. Aside from my own plugs for BJ's comic, I think it's been
mentioned here possibly twice in the fourteen months it's been running.2: I am NOT the artist for Jackie's Fridge, JoBeth!, or Tonja Steele - I
merely provide BJ & Joey with any help they need concerning the computer end
of the webcomic deal. Any opinions presented here are mine and mine alone -
if I piss someone off, PLEASE don't stop reading their wonderful comics
because of it.3: A LOT of thought went into the original JF design. Thoughts like:
a: Well, the comic is the important thing - we're not looking to win
awards for web design, anyway (which I know we won't).
b: How can we get all the links to all the sections of the website
into a spot the user can get to them easily?
c: Ok, not everyone has even 33.6 access, much less cable/DSL/T1, so
how do we pare down the graphics so that the pages and comics load quickly
for _everyone_, not just the high-end users? (In a perfect world where Keen
is never down/slow).
d: Gee, there are still a lot of people only using 800x600 on their
screens, so we'd better design the site so that it looks okay at 800x600 and
all other resolutions, and the readers can see the entire comic without
having to scroll in more than one direction, so that we're not alienating
people with lower-end PCs...like our artists & writers.
e: BJ is a cartoonist, not an HTML "expert" - and neither am I.
Rather than dealing with a lot of extra Java/VBS/CGI/whatever code, let's
concentrate our time on having a solid set of pages with as few errors &
bottlenecks as possible, getting the strip done, and promoting the heck out
of the comic.
f: Final thought - the site design works if it can get the user to
the comic, through the archives, and wherever else on the site that they
might wish to go - the Jackie's Fridge, JoBeth, and Tonja Steele sites all
do this. The numbers from the last 12 months reflect that.Anyway - if you want to say that it's a bad design, ok. A "blah" design,
sure. Not flashy enough, not attention-getting enough, that's ok, too. But
please don't assume that since these sites might not be up to your
standards, they "just don't have any thought put into them". Some artists
choose to do their website for their comic, not the other way around.-Shannon Traska
JoBeth.net! WebMaster/Promotionals Manager So tell us, folks - is our current site design really that bad? Be honest, but if you're going to tell us something's broke, be ready to give us your ideas on how to fix it, k?Thanks,
Shannon

Dennis K · Post by **Dennis K** » Sun Aug 19, 2001 8:01 am

I for one think the web design is nice. (Asthetically not quite my cup of tea, persay, but that's just me).Two "technical" things I would like to point out.1) The background seems to be the slowest loading part of the page, and on my old computer, caused serious lag time. (My new one is more powerful, and the lag has been shortened, but it's still there)2) There isn't a link to the guest comic BJ did for me ^_~(It's at <A HREF="http://fogclub.keenspace.com/d/20010721.html" TARGET=_blank>http://fogclub.keenspace.com/d/20010721.html</A> for the record.) And while you're all there take a look at my "blah" website design and realize I'm not going to be one judging others as far as that goes.------------------
Dennis K
<A HREF="http://dragonstarcomics.8m.com" TARGET=_blank>Dragonstar Comics</A>
"The first rule about <A HREF="http://fogclub.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>FOGClub</A>is, ALWAYS talk about <A HREF="http://fogclub.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>FOGClub</A>!" -- Pauly, <A HREF="http://untitledagain.com" TARGET=_blank>Untitled Again</A>

Rann · Post by **Rann** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 12:02 am

Personally, I think the web design on the JF website is just about perfect. I think a different arrangement of the in-page links above the strip could be rearranged just a little to make the Forum link a bit more noticable, but since there's also a link to 'em below the strip, and not everyone will overlook the obvious like I frequently do, I don't think that's a real issue...
Maybe just make those links a different color to stand out more against the background.------------------

- Rann Aridorn
"Do I have a little 'take a number' sign on me somewhere, or something?"

PsychoBlonde · Post by **PsychoBlonde** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 12:59 am

Yeah, I think the JF, TS and JB! sites are just fine. I like the way they're laid out, so I don't have to scroll to read the comic (I run at 1024x768), and the links are all right there nice and accessable.I dunno, I've seen a lot of sites that are graphics-heavy with silly scripts running on them that making navigating around the site a chore. Sure, they may have a lot of time devoted to setting them up that way, but I'm here to read the comic and yak on the forum, dammit. I don't give a rat's patootie about javascript or flashing icons.Rah.Old school!=)-PsychoBlonde
-Remembering the days of using Lynx...
-"Text was good enough for us!"

BJ · Post by BJ » Mon Aug 20, 2001 2:47 am

"Webcomics are presented an entire page at once--as an experience."Personally, I don't like change. I'd like to keep the JF site simple and easy to use, with very few changes, so that when readers visit the site, they are always presented with something familiar and comforting, not something flashy. I don't have a "flashy" strip.I know the colours aren't that great (that's my fault), and hopefully there will be a new version soon--we'll see. As for the design, it's staying pretty much like Shannon originally had it. It's easy to navigate and easy for me to figure out for updates. If anything, I think it's too busy!Just my 2 cents.And Dennis, I added the link last night, before I even saw your post. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/wink.gif"> Now I just gotta get rid of that apostrophe....------------------
Here comes a storm in the form of a <A HREF="http://www.jobeth.net" TARGET=_blank>girl</A>; she's the finest, sweetest thing in the world.

Xiombarg · Post by **Xiombarg** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 4:26 am

Well folks, here's my evaluaiton and suggestions:The Strips are Wonderful Just the way they are! There's a movement to change the file formats to PNG. It's more a political move than anything else.On the web-design front: You've got the best philosophy going on! Get that Web-Lite Mojo Working! I rarely have troubles loading the pages, and that makes for a Much more enjoyable morning read, all around! Although, some of the choices for background graphics are a little heavy, or hard on the eyes, that's only a very minor, and cosmetic at best, change. (Sorry Shannon, but that Green Weave thing is getting a mite tired. Maybe a sketch-collage?) Some jiggering of the link order for a few of the links, and maybe the occasional mouse-over text for some of them for descriptive purposes, might be of positive impact without adding to the load time of the page(s) appreciably.
Xiombarg,Just two cents, he says... Here's a Tooney, keep the change <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/wink.gif">

DukeNuke · Post by **DukeNuke** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 8:56 am

Hey, if that guy thinks JF has a bad site design, then he should head over to my fanfic site. Absolutely no thought put into it! (Of course, since it's temporary, I guess that's expected.) As for JF's site design, it's OK. I like the actual design, but the colors are a little bland. And yea, I think there should be ALT text on the comics. It would be really cool and you could fit in an extra joke.------------------
"The Gym Leader is in this room, designing his new comic strip. He used to be a Gym Leader in a small town called Pallet, but his landlord couldn't afford to keep him there and kicked him out, although he didn't want to do it, so he moved back here. Now he spends much of his time drawing comics. May I present to you, the Pummelo Gym Leader: Josh Nickerson!"-Guide person on Pummelo Island from Chapter 26 of my Pok

Hornetdriver · Post by **Hornetdriver** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 10:42 am

I look at it this way; As long as the site works, it doesn't matter WHAT it looks like. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif">------------------
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent, Qui annus est?

Zodo · Post by **Zodo** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 10:46 am

Actually, the only problem I have with the JF site, and all the other JoBeth.net sites, is all the code that Keen* makes you put on sometimes crashes my browser... Whether it's the javascript running the banner ad, or some link to gear.keenspace.com, or some other weird keenspace or keenspot site, it's never actually the stuff you guys provide that gives me trouble.There was talk a while ago of redesigning the site, so it would look like the Guest Art page... then again, there was also talk about letting us see a full sized clearer picture of the sketch that's on the background, and there's been talk forever about having guest art added to the guest art page. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"> I wouldn't say that the JF or JB.n design is crappy, though. I've seen far worse. Some people put on so many little java gizmos, and tiny pictures, that it takes absofreakinglutely forEVER to load their page, to the point that I start wondering if i really really need to see the content they are providing...-Zodo
aka BUNNY!
Consummate Troublemaker

Gally · Post by **Gally** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 1:07 am

I was gonna comment that the background is sorta slow loading for me.. but you fixed that.^^ The banner above the comic now seems kinda distracting though... could you put it up a bit higher? So its not acutally touching the strip?

Gally · Post by **Gally** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 1:09 am

I was gonna comment that the background is sorta slow loading for me.. but you fixed that.^^ The banner above the comic now seems kinda distracting though... could you put it up a bit higher? So its not acutally touching the strip?

Gally · Post by **Gally** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 1:18 am

>< Stuiped laggy keenspance. Made me double post:P

BJ · Post by BJ » Tue Aug 21, 2001 2:29 am

The banner was supposed to be a sleeker version of the square title graphic (to move the comic closer to the top of the page to minimise scrolling--I did something similar on the <A HREF="http://tonjasteele.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Tonja Steele</A> page.That Pig background won't stay for long. *shudder*And you can always delete an extra post by choosing the Edit icon on your post and ticking the "delete" option.Well....off to work, I suppose. Any more suggestions? I'm liking this quite a bit.------------------
Here comes a storm in the form of a <A HREF="http://www.jobeth.net" TARGET=_blank>girl</A>; she's the finest, sweetest thing in the world.

Imp · Post by **Imp** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 8:11 am

Usability is my prime concern with a web site. The biggest problem JF has right now is Keenspace is a buggy/laggy host. Would be nice to see JF and TS mirrored on a more reliable site.As for the design, I was thinking it was too graphics heavy due to the ads, but there's really not much that can be done about that. I like my sites clean and easy to navigate.I always thought of the JF and TS sites as pretty well maintained because BJ and Joey change their home page notes every week or so, which is fantastic. The background is a bit busy.I like the change to the nav links, less up and down scrolling is good.For the record, I don't visit a lot of web comics, even good ones, because the home page is too busy.In summary, it sounds like the complaint Shannon quoted comes from people who only know enough about web design to be dangerous, and aren't concerned with usability. I've been doing web development and worked with enough professional designers to know the type. They're our worst customers, because they're too concerned with heavy graphics and blinky-flashys. We have to do a lot of fighting to get a site that works on average quality computers. Uh, I better quit before this becomes a full blown rant.er...too late <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/wink.gif">--Chris------------------
"Don't bother the nice lady with the swords."