towr wrote:
And the only way to ultimately win a war is to not keep making more and more enemies..
This is impossible, exactly because of attitudes like Horns'.
Well, there are two ways.. Kill everyone, or resolve the problems that cause the animosity..
Easier said than done, I know, but not impossible..
England and the US were enemies once, now they're bestest friends..
Rann wrote:This attitude has spread over the entire world, and in fact is probably one of the leading causes of the tragedy that started this whole mess.
The leading cause is foreign US policy, both political and economical (too hard to distinguish sometimes).
In hindsight training (later) terrorists to fight communism wasn't the best move in the history of the world.. Along with keeping, and putting in power dictators, again to keep communism at bay.. All easy to judge in hindsight.. espescially since there is now way to now if it'd be worse if they hadn't (in all fairness).
And economic tactics like using intelligence from f.i. echelon to give americam companies an unfair edge in world market, and forcing open markets flooding the domestic markets into collaps etc, doesn't make them popular either..
And then some people are just envious..
Me? I just hope the world doesn't blow up.. At least not till I get a chance to get off and do it myself
I can't say I feel reassured with Bush's finger at the big red button..
Rann, you remind me of those thick skull hardhats who, back in the late 60's early 70's who beat up those who were merely excercising their right to speak freely, WITHOUT fear of reprisal, and just in case you slept through your history classes, this country was founded by the dissenters, radicals, politically unstable, & free thinkers that you have now spoken against.
Rann wrote:...mingled with the crap of Tonja Steele....
Uh, oh, NOW there's gonna be trouble...
Hey, I liked the strip, if that's any consolation. Bush did a good job with 9/11, but I do believe he's starting to go a bit overboard now. He promised to bring Bin Laden to justice, but failing to have done that, he's tried to turn our focus on Saddam. I kind of feel Bush wants to finish the job his father started when the Gulf War ended, but never finished. Still, that's really no reason to go in and start trouble without some proof that Saddam is building massive weapons, a claim that they have yet to really uncover.
Rann, you remind me of Ann Coulter, a left-wing bigot who says the entire Democratic party is full of hate-mongers and slanderers and they should all be taken out. She is an idiot for thinking this way, and you are an idiot for taking a comic strip too seriously.
Rann wrote:You turned the comic into your own personal soapbox, which is something most self-centered, self-righteous jackasses with a chance to speak to a lot of people do.
Rann, how may I put this mildly and in words small enough so you can understand...
1. you're wrong. Like most people, Bush is an idiot.
2. we don't care about what you think about anything.
3. SHUT UP
Is that concise enough ?
Evil will always win because good is stupid. Yes, that includes you. http://www.insolitology.com - the bizarre on the web, from Alex Chiu to Scientology, all in one place !
Okay, now normally, I wouldn't EVER touch a political issue with a ten, nay, twenty thousand foot pole, but, due to things which will become clear, here I go.
I am a patriot. Perhaps more so than most people.
I'm going to say right here that I believe George Bush DID win the election; the process is flawed, but it isn't the first time a president who didn't win the popular vote won the election. Even if it wasn't quite right, it was legal.
And even though I don't agree with his policy of increasing the isolationism of American policy, I think we SHOULD be active in foriegn policy, even if I don't agree with exactly how we do it.
I'm even upset that someone referred to Rann as simple-minded. Even if she wasn't being reasonable, there's no reason for ad-hominem attacks. That just makes the barrier that separates us higher.
I even think that the level of capitalism in America is more or less appropriate. I'm a very, very strong capitalist in my personal belief structure. Capitalism works, and well, providing it gets a few nudges in the right direction by the population, who are supposed to look out for stupidity and meanness wherever they find it.
Now we come to the important part of this post:
WHEREVER THEY FIND IT.
It is our JOB as Americans to be critical of our government.
If we think our foriegn policy is flawed, we should say so, and as loudly as possible. We need to talk about these things, openly and without anger. Anger will get us nowhere. (I even think that BJ's slightly angry comic is a *little* much.)
I personally avoid politics in my own comic because I feel that people don't want to be reminded of the real world when they're reading mine. I even think BJ shouldn't have made this comic, simply because doing it has forced me to think of the real world, which isn't really why I read this comic.
Oooo! Namecalling, bringing in topics that have nothing to DO with the real topic (aww, you're sick of sketches, Rann? Maybe that's because BJ has a job that PAYS him MONEY, and he's not going to sacrifice something he gets paid for for something he gets nothing but your eternal gratitude for). The swearing is also a nice touch. I know I always respect and listen to people who curse and namecall (or both!) to get their "point" across.
As a side note, I'm very crushed that Rann hates my strip (whatever THAT has to do with the topic at hand). I am. I think I shall run from the forum in tears. Don't worry, Josh. I (snif) think I'll make it through this. And I'm sure BJ will, too. We'll be strong!
I'm done. Can't wait to see the rest of the week's strips, BJ. And feel free to express your opinion. It's a free country, you know!
Well, I was going to say something, but a_e pretty much summed it up for me.
And free speech, yes, you are entitled to it. But with that right comes responsibility, I'm sure you all at least know that much. BJ created the comic and put it up. You aren't entitled to read it, or agree with it. He didn't attack a specific person, but he did cartoon-icize what he believes is happening. You also aren't obligated to read his rant, which, in my case at a high resolution, you have to at least scroll down a little bit to read.
Now Rann, you also are entitled to your free speech, but flat out attacking, calling names, saying BJ is unworthy of being in the country ect. is abusing that right. For a example, I could right now spew off about 10000 swear words, coupled with a few nouns, adjectives and adverbs to describe what I think about YOUR opinion. But I'm not going to, because I realize that your opinion is yours. I don't have the right to decide who is bad and who is good, because each one of us is a shade of gray. I am going to respect your opinion, but I am in no way going to agree with it.
BJ, despite what you may think, is a good person. Simply because he has a somewhat different point of view doesn't mean you have any right to belittle him for it. That is very un-American. I think most self-righteous, supposedly patriotic people need to check themselves, because I see this kind of an argument spewing all over the place, and it's not pleasant.[/b]
Actually, I'd like to thank Rann for delivering one of the most fun forum topics in a long time. I'm glad he broke his promise to stop reading JF or posting on the forum, and I'm sure once he gets his driver's license he'll find other things to do.
Hee hee, I'm such a snot.
Seriously, if anybody's unclear on my intentions with this week's strips, I'm only trying to get folks to understand that other people have other cultures and viewpoints. There's a REASON these people hate us, and if all of us lived with their history and their upbringing and learning, we'd hate us too. Both our governments are using mucho propaganda to get us all to think one way or another. That's the way it is. There's nothing we can do to stop it, and those who CAN have no reason to. But we do have a voice, and it truly is our responsibility to keep an eye on our government (thanks Allan)--which is supposed to be looking out for OUR interests, not their own.
I'm only saying there are ALWAYS at least two sides to any conflict, and both have reasons for acting the way they do. Blind hatred on our part (and theirs) only serves to keep the stupidity rampant. These comics are supposed to get folks thinking about what we're all doing and how we're thinking (or IF we're thinking). We're all entitled to our opinions, but there's more responsibility there to respect that others will have different opinions which are equally as valid. It's how we think, and it's what drives us to action.
Some people just don't want to think, and there's nothing we can do to change it except wait.
Lastly, I'd also like to thank everyone for contributing to this thread, and nearly all of you for keeping the language decent.
Yes, but why move to Ireland? They have shootings up there, plus they're touchy about the whole potato thing. Why not move to Canada? They have hockey, funny looking money and you could go hang out with Damonk and drink some beers before working on your respective comics. Hell, let's all move to Canada, where the beer flows like water and anybody on the street would gladly shave your back for a nickel! Waka waka doo doo yeah!
Everybody! Ooooo Canadaaaaa, my hooome and native laaaand...
(Just trying to lighten up the mood 'round here)
To be fair, BJ, when have you <i>ever</i> said anything positive about America in your comic. Perhaps Rann has overreacted but I can easily see how he feels the way he does.
Personally, while I respect your opinion, I was disgusted by today's strip.
For one thing the implication that those of us who think Bush is doing a good job are in some kind of denial is itself a personal attack. Sure he's no Regan, but he's a hundred times better than Clinton and I'd even say he's better than his father was.
Second it always bothers me when someone threatens to emigrate if Candidate X gets elected. If I had to put up with a Marxist adulterer who lied to a federal grand jury and can't define the word "is" for eight years then you can put up with someone whose biggest political problem is something he has absolutely nothing to do with!
Which brings me to the rant, which contained a statement that has been made by many people which has been bothering me for months. <b>George W. Bush is not responsible for the rise in corporate corruption going on right now!</b> Let me repeat that for those of you who didn't get it: He had nothing to do with it! Dubya is <i>not</i> on the Enron board of directors, and the same statement applies to Worldcom and all the other screw ups out there in the world of business.
Yun648 wrote:<b>George W. Bush is not responsible for the rise in corporate corruption going on right now!</b> Let me repeat that for those of you who didn't get it: He had nothing to do with it! Dubya is <i>not</i> on the Enron board of directors, and the same statement applies to Worldcom and all the other screw ups out there in the world of business.
Actually, I don't think BJ was implying that.
You're right, Bush has nothing to do with CAUSING the recent corporate debacles, HOWEVER, as our elected representative, he has a RESPONSIBILITY to CONTAIN this situation. Meanwhile, Bush is off attacking Sadam Hussein, who happens to run a country with an iron fist near some Oil fields the Bush family has captial in.
Well it took me a minute to un-jumble the strip when I saw it first, but I get it now and, yeah, very sharp & pointy, I like. I hope BJ isn't going to start feeling un-free to say what he likes now, even if JF doesn't usually go so political with its subject matter.
And now, a quick list of objectionable things that came from Rann, that were more particularly objectionable than the rest of what Rann was saying:
*The use of the word "unpatriotic", or rather, the use of the word "unpatriotic" in the sense that it's a bad word, a word you go around calling people you're trying to bully/belittle/put down. I think it must be a some sort of modern version of "gay". No shame in it in this day and age, man.
*"if you're not with us, you're against us"
This kind of reminds me of one of the This Modern World strips on Salon.com.
Can't remember which one but here's a link to the archive. http://dir.salon.com/topics/tom_tomorrow/index.html
*Repeatedly using the name "Horns" to refer to BJ. Like he's sooo evil and he has horns. My god.
I fully support the methods Bush was elected by, as they are in fact the methods that are very clearly given in the constitution and other laws on this matter, and they are the methods used in the past (Florida was involved every single time, BTW
However, I also support BJ in his rant agains't exactly how extreme we're taking this. The attitude that "You're either with us or agains't us" is something that simply serves to divide an otherwise unified group. There is no reason to turn agains't a good friend just because they don't support you in every action. And there ARE good reasons not to support some of the actions we're taking - Because they're rash, and because they aren't punishing the people DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE.
I don't support the Terrorists. But I also don't equate marijuana use with terrorism, like the government would like us to believe. I don't think that people unwittingly involved in aiding these terrorists should be harmed either - Many banks held money for the terrorists. They did not hold it knowing what was to happen, and I see no reason to expect them to have predicted the horrible attrocities that happened.
And I know I'm not changing anyones mind with this, but I'm still writing it. I suppose, I just want to say that I support BJ in what he did.
BJ, did you ever consider that the reason they don't like us is because we exist? We are a successful secular capitalist republic. The theocrat hates our egalitarianism and openness. The socialist hates our equality of opporntunity without equality of outcome. The authoritarian hates our liberty and personal sovereignty. America (and Israel) success is a slap in the face to people whose beliefs tell them that they should be on top.
Your comic implies that we are using a excessive force to squash an insignificant foe. I disagree. We didn't carpet bomb Afganistan. We were using precisionly dropped bombs (500 yards from our own troops) to excise a cancerous regime that was hiding amongst its own civilians. A regime, I might add, that was killing hundreds of its own people a month.
As for a "warm cocoon of denial," I have seen pictures dead civilians killed by American bombs. I have also seen pictures of people falling out of the WTC and video tape of a woman in an Afgan soccer stadium being shot in the head in front of a cheering crowd. I'm sorry that a few hundred people got killed in the crossfire but we had to make sure Sept. 11th didn't happen again. We should have defended ourselves when they carbombed our embassies ten years ago but it took 3,000 lives to work up the political will to put down these mad dogs.
As for gratitude, I expect will get as much from the Afgans as we got from the French, the Germans, the Italians, the British, the Japanese... Fuck gratitude. How about if everybody keeps to themselves.
(Heavy sigh...) Well, I don't agree with the sentiment, BJ, but, I understand it. Rann's little rant was over the top, and uncalled for. (I suspect this person isn't much over the age of 17...) The issues are more complicated than anyone loudly participating in the discussion seems able to believe. Bringing up Election 2K with all the fun and stupidity that attended it- (the networks "Calling" the election before the ballots were counted, and, an election where the margin of Error outranged the margin of Victory, for two examples) is counterproductive. There has ALWAYS been a tradition of criticism directed at American Foreign Policy- there were Pro-Hitler Editorials in 1943 in American Newspapers- and we were at war with that schmuck. It's fair to criticise how we're handling the "War on Terrorism", because we are a FREE nation (at least, for the moment. As to why the rest of the world hates us, they hated the British for the same reasons at the height of that empire, and our policy was even more homocidal than it is now. In thirty years, they'll maybe hate the Chinese for the same reasons- it's just the way things are.
One thing to consider, though, is this:
We could have been even More violent in our response- there was serious discussion about releasing the restrictions on Chemical and Nuclear weapons, as well as unleashing an "instant" response against our percieved enemies. Short form? Nuking Baghdad, Tripoli, and, Damascus. This was seriously discussed! what happened instead, was three months of research, verification, and, investigation, followed by systematic economic attacks and seizures of Bin-Laden's organizational assets. When troops finally showed up in Afghanistan, the Taliban and Bin Laden were seriously crippled economically, and, their usual allies were unwilling to be seen as helping them. Now, it's down to simply grinding this down to a halt- by winning. We can Afford to criticize the policy, and, the policy-makers, because we have the power to have that luxury. Now, BJ, YOU don't like GW Bush, you've made that abundantly clear. That's fine, you made it clear back when the wrangling was going on that you didn't like how the results finally came down when Gore quit.
but, it would not have been that close if there weren't a significant number of people out here in flyover-land who disagree with your view. So far, Bush still hasn't managed to accomplish much beyond being an administrator, he's managed to lose the Congress for his party, and, after the next election, I doubt he'll have much more influence than he already doesn't have in Congress. For my money, that's a good thing- when a Party has control of both the Legislature, and, the Executive, the rest of us are fucked. Either Party
Now, Personally, I've been in the Middle East before. Put nicely, they've NEVER liked us, they never will. The ones that do, usually come over here and become Citizens to get away from 6000 years of bullshit in their former-homelands. I find dropping bombs on those places to be an excellent way of spending my tax-dollars, having seen the way those people treat each other- anywhere where Slavery is, in fact, in practice, where they mutilate their little girls, and, try to keep their children ignorant, well... that's what I call an excellent bombing range. They do not practice either Honour, or, Mercy, though they know the words and their meaning, they deserve neither Mercy, nor, Compassion. For my money, most of the third world can be vastly improved by using it for an artillery impact area/bombing range/nuclear test site.
Now, "It's a good thing I'm not in Charge, ain't it?"
Bloody right it is.
