Off topic silliness of a web-culture sort!

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Baxtrr
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Off topic silliness of a web-culture sort!

Post by Baxtrr »

Okay, this only works if you do it without taking time to think it out.

What do you call the list of URLs you've saved in your browser? FAST!

What did you say? It dates you as to when you started using the Web.

Anyone who came in recently, during the Microsoft era or on AOL, says "Favorites." People from the earlier years of the Web say "Bookmarks."

And a few old pharts from the dawn of the Web, when Mosaic was the ONLY browser out there, say "Hotlist."

I remember my first-ever Web joke: "You know you're spending too much time surfing the World Wide Web when you pull up your Hotlist and the lights dim."

:wink:

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Post by LaserBeams »

Bookmarks!

"Hotlist" implies something of terrible importance.

"Favorites" implies that they're all my favorite links. Which is a little difficult, because I probably have several thousand. Favorite links would be things I look at daily, like Slashdot.

But then... "favorites" doesn't really surprise me much, based on the often apparent stupidity of the "AOL/M$ Generation"...

I'll always call them bookmarks, even if I am using IE at the moment (I'm waiting for a version of Mozilla that doesn't give me troubles).

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Post by Kellogg »

Umm... Saved links? :o

Darn, I stink at these quizzes. ;)

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Post by Olick »

LaserBeams wrote:Bookmarks!

"Hotlist" implies something of terrible importance.

"Favorites" implies that they're all my favorite links. Which is a little difficult, because I probably have several thousand. Favorite links would be things I look at daily, like Slashdot.

But then... "favorites" doesn't really surprise me much, based on the often apparent stupidity of the "AOL/M$ Generation"...

I'll always call them bookmarks, even if I am using IE at the moment (I'm waiting for a version of Mozilla that doesn't give me troubles).
Hey! I believe I'm technically the "AOL/M$ Generation" Having used nothing but Windows from day one(excluding a small period of DOS usage). I'm now rather annoyed as now I am lumped in the stupid group. I don't think I'm stupid(do you?)

Not everyone in the "AOL/M$ Generation" is stupid, despite the fact that it is apparently so.

By the way: I thought Bookmarks, and I don't know why....

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Post by LaserBeams »

Olick wrote:
LaserBeams wrote:Bookmarks!

"Hotlist" implies something of terrible importance.

"Favorites" implies that they're all my favorite links. Which is a little difficult, because I probably have several thousand. Favorite links would be things I look at daily, like Slashdot.

But then... "favorites" doesn't really surprise me much, based on the often apparent stupidity of the "AOL/M$ Generation"...

I'll always call them bookmarks, even if I am using IE at the moment (I'm waiting for a version of Mozilla that doesn't give me troubles).
Hey! I believe I'm technically the "AOL/M$ Generation" Having used nothing but Windows from day one(excluding a small period of DOS usage). I'm now rather annoyed as now I am lumped in the stupid group. I don't think I'm stupid(do you?)

Not everyone in the "AOL/M$ Generation" is stupid, despite the fact that it is apparently so.

By the way: I thought Bookmarks, and I don't know why....
Because you're not really in that generation... I meant it purely to lump together annoying AIMers, script kiddies, and people in general who don't know how to use the web properly or responsibly. If you've used DOS, I don't think you can fit in there.

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Post by Baxtrr »

LaserBeams wrote:
Olick wrote:
Hey! I believe I'm technically the "AOL/M$ Generation" Having used nothing but Windows from day one(excluding a small period of DOS usage). I'm now rather annoyed as now I am lumped in the stupid group. I don't think I'm stupid(do you?)

Not everyone in the "AOL/M$ Generation" is stupid, despite the fact that it is apparently so.

By the way: I thought Bookmarks, and I don't know why....
Because you're not really in that generation... I meant it purely to lump together annoying AIMers, script kiddies, and people in general who don't know how to use the web properly or responsibly. If you've used DOS, I don't think you can fit in there.
I find this highly amusing, considering that when the Web was invented we original old-timers (how old? see footnote) quickly realized that there WAS no way to use it properly or responsibly; it and AOL together were going to transform the Internet into a content-free shopping mall and basically pave over our culture.

I vividly remember having a conversation in 1996 with a coworker here, having just moved into the music journalism business from science. She was ranting about the destruction of indigenous cultures and how awful it was that people could just barge in by sheer force of money and numbers and make the prior people do things their way.

I interrupted her to ask what her online service was, and she of course replied, "AOL. Why?"

My attempts to explain why I howled with laughter were met with chilly silence. Apparently indigenous net.culture was somehow not worthy of saving. I love Boulder... hypocrisy capital of the USA. :-?

bax

(footnote: when doing research for my PhD I had to have a fellow scientist explain to me that this "Internet" thingy was eventually going to link all the various nets we were using (and had been using for years and years, like BITNET, MILNET, ARPANET, UUnet, etc) together into one horkin' big thing that didn't need gateway machines any more. Having already happily outgrown bangpaths, I was more than ready to kiss gateways goodbye, since sending email through them was always a gamble. Like going from Babylon 5 stargates to Star Trek or Star Wars warpdrive, you no longer had to struggle to a certain place only to THEN be able to go further. I recently found an old notebook with dozens of email addresses in it, including my best guesses at workable gateways depending on whether I was emailing from Pittsburgh or Oak Ridge....)
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Post by Daniel Cougar »

Kellogg wrote:Umm... Saved links? :o


Really? I always thought "saved" was a bit redundent.
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Post by Mako »

baxtrr wrote: I interrupted her to ask what her online service was, and she of course replied, "AOL. Why?"

My attempts to explain why I howled with laughter were met with chilly silence. Apparently indigenous net.culture was somehow not worthy of saving. I love Boulder... hypocrisy capital of the USA. :-?
And there you have it , dee-lux Ivory Tower issue blinders combined with Alfred E. Neuman's Who Me? all in one tidy package.

!paths, ye gods above we are anciente olde pharts. I went from PDP-8's in high school then into the military, and when I got out all you guys had conveniently !* > /dev/nul and invented 11/780's, all for just me, thank you so very much :)

On the loss of culture, it wasn't just the destruction of usenet, the AOLnet also killed tens of thousands of dial up BBS across the planet, mine included. Local bbs communities built up over almost two decades were dissolved completely by the web within 18 months, replaced by web boards such as this one and majordomo mailing lists.

In mid '92 my main BBS was taking around 50-60 calls per day on two nodes, was tossing 200ish mail messages daily with about 100 other North American BBS's in the Wildnet email network. By the end of '94 I was getting 2-3 calls per day and net mail volume was under 10 messages per day from an ever shrinking Wildnet. I pulled the plug and shut the board down forever.

There are a very few boards still online, but they are telnet-able. I belong to a Yahoo group of crusty and grumpy old sysops yammering on about the goode olde daze, but the fact we're using a web board and mailing list to do it kinda takes the air out of our tires :)

Check out http://bbslist.textfiles.com/ for an amazing project one guy is working on to archive the past...

CYa!
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Post by Kellogg »

Mako wrote:
baxtrr wrote: I interrupted her to ask what her online service was, and she of course replied, "AOL. Why?"

My attempts to explain why I howled with laughter were met with chilly silence. Apparently indigenous net.culture was somehow not worthy of saving. I love Boulder... hypocrisy capital of the USA. :-?
And there you have it , dee-lux Ivory Tower issue blinders combined with Alfred E. Neuman's Who Me? all in one tidy package.
Hee! Now that's really funny! :D

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Post by Mako »

Kellogg wrote:
And there you have it , dee-lux Ivory Tower issue blinders combined with Alfred E. Neuman's Who Me? all in one tidy package.
Hee! Now that's really funny! :D

Scott[/quote]

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CYa!
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Post by Quill »

But doesn't the Internet create cultures too? The Webcomic fans, for instance...or the TV show fans. The TV fans had ways to gather before, but none so easy or prolific. And there's plenty of oddness around. It's not as flashy as the commercial stuff, but it is there.
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Post by Kellogg »

Quill wrote:But doesn't the Internet create cultures too? The Webcomic fans, for instance...
I hope so. 8)
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Post by Mako »

Quill wrote:But doesn't the Internet create cultures too? The Webcomic fans, for instance...or the TV show fans. The TV fans had ways to gather before, but none so easy or prolific. And there's plenty of oddness around. It's not as flashy as the commercial stuff, but it is there.
Certainly! But the difference was the culture that was destroyed was the culture that created the technology in the first place.

And lo, there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth, tearing of clothes and throwing of ashes when the techies as a whole realized that they had sown the seeds of their own destruction.

Words like stolen, co-opted, ripped off, and much, much worse were uttered as the original internet culture was killed off by it's own uncontrollable golem's success.

I personally mark the transition of Net v1.0 to Net v.++ with the tragic loss of John Postel. That was for me the bookend to the Age of Engineers and marks the beginning of the Age of the Moneymen.

The BBS scene died a far less vocal and mostly unmourned death, as it just voluntarily evaporated itself back into the fog from which it had originally risen. The potential of the www pulled BBS callers out of the local BBS scene/culture into a world wide online scene, bleeding the BBS's reason de vir' away.

Some BBS's converted into dial up internet portals, mini-isp's if you will, but most failed, only a very few got lucky and were bought out in the first wave of speculation that eventually turned into the .com boom.

The 'net is all about money now (or the lack there of). It's no longer about creating the perfect hack (in the original sense of the phrase) and adding something new and nifty to the collective wisdom.

It's cold cash, not passion, that steers the 'net's development now. The original hackers have moved on other things, like linux, 401K's, Rogain and reminiscing over their latte's and double espressos about the days when they were the 'net...

CYa!
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Post by Kellogg »

Mako wrote: The 'net is all about money now (or the lack there of). It's no longer about creating the perfect hack (in the original sense of the phrase) and adding something new and nifty to the collective wisdom.
Well, there are a few corners where people try to add content to the
whole business. They're small, and surrounded by billboards, but
they're there. :)
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Post by Baxtrr »

Mako wrote:
Quill wrote:But doesn't the Internet create cultures too? The Webcomic fans, for instance...or the TV show fans. The TV fans had ways to gather before, but none so easy or prolific. And there's plenty of oddness around. It's not as flashy as the commercial stuff, but it is there.
Certainly! But the difference was the culture that was destroyed was the culture that created the technology in the first place.

And lo, there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth, tearing of clothes and throwing of ashes when the techies as a whole realized that they had sown the seeds of their own destruction.

Words like stolen, co-opted, ripped off, and much, much worse were uttered as the original internet culture was killed off by it's own uncontrollable golem's success.
Thanks for the words of affirmation, Mako. Nice to know I'm not the only phart around here.

Quill, it's true that some good cottage culture has sprung up in the Web's out of the way places. But to get to the point where it would support its OWN counterculture, the web's mainstream culture had to kill off what went before so the oldtimers became virtual carpetbaggers looking for new homes.

Mako wrote:I personally mark the transition of Net v1.0 to Net v.++ with the tragic loss of John Postel. That was for me the bookend to the Age of Engineers and marks the beginning of the Age of the Moneymen.
{...}
It's cold cash, not passion, that steers the 'net's development now. The original hackers have moved on other things, like linux, 401K's, Rogain and reminiscing over their latte's and double espressos about the days when they were the 'net...
My personal death knell for the Old Ways was when the anonymous server in Finland got shut down by the Powers That Be. That box was the last even remotely-reliable way for anyone in the world to take part in the Internet with some degree of privacy. When it was killed, we lost, not our innocence, but that fundamental sense of safety that some of us needed for some dealings on the Internet. And it will never be replaced...the closest thing is the Yahoo account, which has too many ways to trace the originator.

"Things is not what they used ta." --Ruthless the Brigand, The Thief And The Cobbler

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Post by Mako »

baxtrr wrote: My personal death knell for the Old Ways was when the anonymous server in Finland got shut down by the Powers That Be. That box was the last even remotely-reliable way for anyone in the world to take part in the Internet with some degree of privacy. When it was killed, we lost, not our innocence, but that fundamental sense of safety that some of us needed for some dealings on the Internet. And it will never be replaced...the closest thing is the Yahoo account, which has too many ways to trace the originator.

"Things is not what they used ta." --Ruthless the Brigand, The Thief And The Cobbler

bax
(blowing dust and brushing cobwebs out of the attic) Thinks... anon.petit.fi wasn't it??? God I'd totally forgotten about that, it was massively .gov control-versial....

Ya know, I'm thinking that was within 6 months of Postel's death. I'm too lazy to look it up, but certainly the events are chronologically close in whatever part of my memory is still functioning after being up all night.
Kellog wrote:Well, there are a few corners where people try to add content to the whole business. They're small, and surrounded by billboards, but they're there.
And for which I am very grateful indeed , however Content (rare and gemlike that it is now adays)is not the issue I'm pointing my sword at, rather it was the network itself being ripped from it's un-numbered birth parents arms and given over to be fostered by those economically inspired as opposed to engineering and community inspired.

The entire internet at one time was at it's core, not a bunch of machines and wires and blinking LEDs, instead it was a library of ASCII text files called Request For Comments, aka RFCs. The RFC's are the genetic code that specified in the minutest detail how every singe bit of data was to flow from machine to machine over the 'net.

<a href="http://www.isoc.org/postel/">Jon Postel</a> created, among many other core concepts, the entire RFC system. He was the RNA that keep the 'net's DNA from falling to a tangled, chaotic, functionless mess.

He also was the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority. All IP address requests went through his office. The power of that postion can not be underestimated. I got my /24 from his organisation using an Email form taken from, you got it, an RFC.

Back then <i>anyone</i> could get a class C for the price of a single Email message. Today no individual can get a /24. Only ISPs can get them and at last check they were at least $5000 up front and $500 per year, assuming you could plead on bended knee to get one.

That /24 of mine is grandfathered by the RFC policies in place on the day it was issued. That policy was written by Jon Postel. An ephemeral connection, but it's very much real to me.

I'm rather backwards proud of this - Go here: http://ws.arin.net/cgi-bin/whois.pl and enter mlkbbs in the search field. A telling fact about this: I sent the rfc template to ARIN/IANA by email. From my AOL account.

I had the netblock the next day despite having the most poisonous return Email address known to man. The net was for everyone and Jon and his organization made certain it stayed that way.

That fuction has now been taken over by multiple organizations.with several *hundred* persons running their continents IP space databases in a very politicized atmosphere heavy with the scent of money and lawyers.

It gets very geeky very quickly from here on in, but suffice it to say his hand was not only on the tiller, but he built the tiller itself. That tiller is what allowed the RFC process to create the internet one document at a time.

He certainly didn't do all that in a vacuum, nor was he some angel sent from on high. He could be heavy handed at times, had plenty of backbone to share and was very much a human being.

So history flows. Someday in the future, the last TCP/IP packet will be transmitted and received between two hosts and the internet as we know it will finally go dark forever.

When that happens, only the RFC's will remain behind. But in them you will still be able to find Vince Serf's and countless other people's light because of Jon Postel.

CYa!
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Post by Kellogg »

Mako wrote: (blowing dust and brushing cobwebs out of the attic) Thinks... anon.petit.fi wasn't it??? God I'd totally forgotten about that, it was massively .gov control-versial....
Good Lord, even I remember that one. It was wierd though.
When Anon.petit.fi showed up, it seemed like a big fad.
Suddenly, *everybody* had anonymous e-mail addresses.
I remember there was a *huge* flap over it's existence and
an even bigger one over attempts to shut it down.

I suppose that there have been worse flame wars since then,
and undoubtedly there will be worse ones yet to come. But
it was my first exposure to just how bad things could get.
It was like everyone was on a soap box and no one was on
the floor listening.
Mako wrote:Jon Postel created, among many other core concepts, the entire RFC system. He was the RNA that keep the 'net's DNA from falling to a tangled, chaotic, functionless mess.
Interesting. I guess I got into the game too late to know of him.
Sounds like an interesting fellow! One question though: What is a /24?

Scott
Last edited by Kellogg on Wed Sep 25, 2002 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Icefox »

Heh, you're making me depressed about something I'm too young to have ever had. :-?

Anyhoo....
And does it end there?
Of course it doesn't.
Nothing ever truly ends;
that is the circle of life,
the trail which we all tread.
When we die,
our baton is taken up by another.
Consequences stretch out into the future
for years after we have gone,
descendants carry our lives on,
and there are always new adventures to be held.
-Shawn Green
Know everything.
Fulfill your limits.
All else is darkness.

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.net stuff

Post by Mako »

Kellogg wrote:
Good Lord, even I remember that one. It was wierd though.
When Anon.petit.fi showed up, it seemed like a big fad.
Suddenly, *everybody* had anonymous e-mail addresses.
I remember there was a *huge* flap over it's existence and
an even bigger one over attempts to shut it down.

I suppose that there have been worse flame wars since then,
and undoubtedly there will be worse ones yet to come. But
it was my first exposure to just how bad things could get.
It was like everyone was on a soap box and no one was on
the floor listening.
Heh :) Pretty much, 98% of the gum flappers on both sides had no idea wth they were yanmmering on about - it was kinda like a Celebrity Deathmatch, except with out the celebs :)

The other 2% knew precisely what the stakes were and had the words but not the money and politics, to back their points up with. As baxxtr noted, ithe unplugging of that system was another tolling of the death bell for net v1.0.

Interesting. I guess I got into the game too late to know of him.
Sounds like an interesting fellow! One question though: What is a /24?

Scott
Back in the day, every machine on the internet planet wide had a unique internet protocol (IP) address. These IP address' were and are still, 32 bits long.

Addresses were assigned in blocks. The smallest block one could get was called a Class C. It uses 24 bits in something called a subnet mask (the 255.255.255.0 you see in your network control panel on Windows systems).

Subtract (XORing) the number of bits from 32 in the subnet mask and you now have a binary number that represents the number of computers that can function on that one network. So 24-32=8 bits, which counts up to 256 in binary, so a /24 network can have 256 IP addesses on it.

A Class B network is a /16, which gives you 2^16 usable addresses. There is also a Class A network, a /8 which gives you 2^24th ip addresses. That a LOT of damn computers on one network :)

So I have the smallest network address block (net-block) possible under the original system

The problem is that there are a finite number of addresses avialable (only got 32 bits to slice up right?). So around '95 or so there was a pretty massive panic that do to the insane growth rate of the internet, the 32 bit IP address schema would run out of available address space and no more networks would be able to be created.

The timing sucked, as the seriously big .com interests began to successfully lobby the .gov (who wanted out of the network biz) to turn over some of the key responsibilites (like the domain name registry for example) to private companies. Highly political, painful and expensive.

Anyways, as a result of the internet address crises, net-blocks were only issued to ISPs and companies that could docuemnt they would use them efficiently. Little minnows like me who once were considered as a part of the internet, were locked out forever at that point, and now have to rent (literally) our IP addresses from our ISPs for a monthly fee. $10 per static IP in my case here in Vegas.

Fast forward to now. There is a 64 bit spec out now called IP v6. IIRC, that's a large enough address space to give every human being alive on the planet something like 1 million IP address to play with. I suspect that is sufficient for the forseable future.

So there's a nice rambling answer to a nice short question :)

CYa!
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Post by Olick »

baxtrr wrote:
LaserBeams wrote:
Olick wrote:
Hey! I believe I'm technically the "AOL/M$ Generation" Having used nothing but Windows from day one(excluding a small period of DOS usage). I'm now rather annoyed as now I am lumped in the stupid group. I don't think I'm stupid(do you?)

Not everyone in the "AOL/M$ Generation" is stupid, despite the fact that it is apparently so.

By the way: I thought Bookmarks, and I don't know why....
Because you're not really in that generation... I meant it purely to lump together annoying AIMers, script kiddies, and people in general who don't know how to use the web properly or responsibly. If you've used DOS, I don't think you can fit in there.
I find this highly amusing, considering that when the Web was invented we original old-timers (how old? see footnote) quickly realized that there WAS no way to use it properly or responsibly; it and AOL together were going to transform the Internet into a content-free shopping mall and basically pave over our culture.

I vividly remember having a conversation in 1996 with a coworker here, having just moved into the music journalism business from science. She was ranting about the destruction of indigenous cultures and how awful it was that people could just barge in by sheer force of money and numbers and make the prior people do things their way.

I interrupted her to ask what her online service was, and she of course replied, "AOL. Why?"

My attempts to explain why I howled with laughter were met with chilly silence. Apparently indigenous net.culture was somehow not worthy of saving. I love Boulder... hypocrisy capital of the USA. :-?

bax
:lol: ROFL :lol:

Aren't some of the funniest events ones that really happened.

Thats priceless...

Maybe in some future year Anthropologists will try to study the original Internet culture to see how it became commercialized...

Maybe not.(probably not)

(This point may seem moot, but I just got to my computer, so its not to me)
Icefox wrote: Heh, you're making me depressed about something I'm too young to have ever had. :-?
Me too :wink:

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