politics and HO

politics and HO

Postby Rbos on Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:55 pm

Putting politics into TotQ means that the forum is fair game for political responses. Unless you plan to separate your political comic strips from your real comics, I don't see anything wrong with your readers assuming the same.
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Postby Lazerus on Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:09 pm

Wow. Sure didn't take long for that thread to get locked.

I never insulted anyone, I posted an article about an event that happened. The truth is never a flame.
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Postby Canis_lupus on Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:28 pm

I think TotQ should be out of the HO loop just because its doesnt discuss Politics like the other 2. but its not my call.
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Postby Sapphire on Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:57 pm

Canis_lupus wrote:I think TotQ should be out of the HO loop just because its doesnt discuss Politics like the other 2. but its not my call.


That's all I was trying to say. I realize, now, my original post may have been slightly inflammatory. But I still believe I expressed myself clearly and I hope no offense was taken.

Also, an aside personally to Madmoonie: I'm sorry, but I didn't quite understand your response to my last post in the now-locked thread, which I no longer have the option of responding to. You said something to the effect of, "See, Sapphire, you're learning." What do you mean by that?
I would have hoped to say something meaninful, or possible inciteful. But, alas.
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Re: politics and HO

Postby Skull on Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:49 pm

rbos wrote:Putting politics into TotQ means that the forum is fair game for political responses. Unless you plan to separate your political comic strips from your real comics, I don't see anything wrong with your readers assuming the same.


Mr. Hayes wishes to have his cake and eat it too. He wishes to spread his clearly controversial opinions, but will delete and lock out anyone that has an opposing viewpoint.

Mr. Hayes prefers to be obnoxious and confrontational (re: "kicking the pedestal" and "declaring war" on Mr. Simpson) but any responses of an obnoxious and confrontational nature are "persecution".

Mr. Hayes also wishes to earn a living with these comics, but doesn't update them regularly, posts fill in it's stead, and posts controversial hot-button filler that even his sycophants find distasteful.

Articles illustrating how poor Christians are being oppressed and persecuted get front-page coverage, but articles illustrating how Christians are bombing, assaulting and murdering (or merely attempting to cover up evidence that contradicts their Book) are ignored, locked or deleted.

And, irony of ironies, Mr. Hayes continues to wonder why he can't earn a living wage with his works. Curiouser and curiouser, said Alice...

Oh and Mr. Hayes? I recently read of a webcomic, with around 4,000 readers on average, that just sold over $14,000 worth of books and shirts in one month, with basically zero up-front outlay. He noted that his profit margin was right at 60%.

But, I understand you feel such things are impossible, and given how you treat your readers, you're probably right.

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Postby Kerry Skydancer on Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:16 pm

(sigh). So much fussing.

I suspect a compromise is in order. It's certainly Mr. Hayes' right to post whatever he likes to his comic, but it's also true that this is generating a lot of heat. Does HO have to be triple-posted? How many folks are there who read only one of the strips?
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Postby Tom Mazanec on Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:22 pm

K. S.
I only read TotQ.
skull:
The phrase is actually "eat your cake and have it too." (my little English language quirk...I know the phrase is being corrupted in the vernacular).
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Postby Skull on Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:14 pm

I gave up reading Hollow when Mr. Hayes retconned it. I already felt it had no real direction or plot, and the changes made didn't help that.

And I finally gave up reading Questor several weeks ago. I was already tired of the erratic schedule and excessive "gift card" filler, so the additional off-topic socio-political fluff was that proverbial final straw.

Sorry. The story's good, but not that good. There are plenty of other comics out there that treat one as a welcome reader, not a target for whatever bile or venom the artist has sticking in his mental craw that morning.

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Postby Tom Mazanec on Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:31 am

Skull:
Buy the CD this summer. It not only segregates the strips (so you can read only TotQ) but it has background from Longscript's journal on the Seven Villages.
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Postby Deckard Canine on Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:00 am

Tom Mazanec wrote:The phrase is actually "eat your cake and have it too." (my little English language quirk...I know the phrase is being corrupted in the vernacular).


By this time, I'd say that the newer phrase can be considered correct. We grammarians must accept that we are always fighting losing battles. :roll:
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Postby Skull on Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:24 pm

Tom Mazanec wrote:Skull:
Buy the CD this summer.


No.

A couple of months ago, I might have, though I prefer "real" books. But after getting fed up with aimless plotlines, pointless retcons, more filler than content, erratic schedules and finally being preached at with sophist sociopolitical nonsense, I was drawn to visit these Forums for the first time, and eventually Mr. Hayes LiveJournal.

And I became rapidly and quite throughly disgusted.

Mr. Hayes himself asked:
How many times have you found a favorite artist, writer, musician, comedian, actor, etc. only to discover, in an ugly October Surprise, that the artist you'd been supporting with your trade for years held beliefs or practices you found unimaginably repugnant? It's an incredibly nasty feeling to realize your consumer dollars had been financing their lifestyle and agenda, isn't it? Made you feel mad and betrayed, didn't it? Felt a little bit deceived, didn't you?


And in this instance, he's exactly right. Having never read his hate-filled LiveJournal, or visited his sycophant-clogged forums or read any of his pedagogery, I might have dismissed the occasional drive-by-sermonizing comic and continued to read.

But, Mr. Hayes decided to make the jump from light in-comic sermons to whole angry bully pulpit pages, and that finally drove me, after already culling Nip & Tuck and Goblin Hollow out of my bookmarks, to come here and ask if Mr. Hayes did, in fact, wish to operate his strips as a business, and thus earn a living.

It quickly became clear he does not.

Mr. Hayes wants "pity donations" and has some minor swag available, but gives the reader little or no reason to buy. He ignores advice to improve the comic or business even when it came from his worshippers.

He continues, it seems, to post Onions, a strip that has nothing at all to do with any of the three comics, in place of actual content, and continues to crosspost it to all three pages.

So no, I have no desire whatsoever to forward Mr. Hayes so much as one thin dime.

And, considering that Mr. Hayes' works have been around for quite a while in webcomics' terms and are, as they say, 'established', but yet he still cannot even earn poverty-level wages with them (despite the fact that dozens of other comics, many much newer, have done so or better with ease) I would wager that I am not alone in that sentiment.

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Postby Tom Mazanec on Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:34 pm

D.C.
You are right of course. Otherwise we would all be speaking Old English and writing this in runes.
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Postby Tom Mazanec on Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:57 pm

skull:
I am a TotQ addict. I have tried everything I can think of to help the comic, including issuing my twice a week challenge (and he might just be stubborn enough to call me on my bluff).
I am sorry you are so turned off by Ralph's HO. I don't blame you. If I want to read Ralph's politics, I go to the LJ. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't. Sometimes the LJ has good stuff (that is where I learned about the Cheshire Crossing strip). But I pretty much know Ralph's views on his hot button issues and don't have time to wade through them to find the occasional gem, so I LJ less and less often.
Maybe Ralph will change his strategy someday. I doubt it, though.
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Postby Madmoonie on Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:44 pm

You know, Skull, if you find RH's comics, LJ, and views so extraordinarily offensive....why are you still here?
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Postby StrangeWulf13 on Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:24 pm

I've asked myself the same question, Madmoonie. He seems to be complaining for the heck of it. It's gettin' annoying.

To Skull, I have but one thing to say:

"Door's to your left." :D
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Postby Tom Mazanec on Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:31 pm

Well, at first he seemed to be trying to help Ralph (like me). But he has said he no longer reads the comic (I still do, and will continue till the comic dies or I do) and it is getting obvious Ralph is in no mood for suggestions. So I guess he should just drop off the forum. If I come up with any other ideas for how I might be persuaded into parting with my money (like the journal in LD) I will share them, but I am getting tired of trying to persuade Ralph too. So maybe we should just let him run his strip and see what happens. I wish the best for him.
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Postby Gengar003 on Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:43 pm

For what it's worth, sapphire, "You doin' me proud."

Ah, but who'm I? Just a ghost, in more ways than one :D

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Postby Skull on Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:17 pm

An excellent question!

As I said earlier, I did, in fact, like Questor. It's an engaging storyline and features well-rounded characters.

But it's frustrating to me, as a reader, to neither know when, or even if, the comic will be updated, and that half the time it is updated, it's needless filler and "greeting cards" wholly unrelated to the story.

I'll put up with late, sporadic or infrequent updates (Suburban Jungle, Outsider, Suicide-for-Hire, etc.) when I know the strip is not the writer's day job. In those cases, I'll happily accept whatever I can get, and whenever I can get it.

But when the writer insists on calling himself a "professional cartoonist", yet updates randomly and infrequently, uses more filler than Fred Gallagher ever did at the height of MegaTokyo's "Dead Piro Days", AND complains of losing readers, poor sales and general poverty, that just heaps annoyance on top of frustration.

I came here to see if there was an explanation. Perhaps I was missing something, a reason for Mr. Hayes' behavior, and to perhaps suggest a pointer or two with which he might improve both the comic and by extension, his sales and income.

What I found was a petty, mean, hate-filled little man. His Onions filler strips being bare iceberg-tips to the venom-filled Ross Ice Shelf of his LiveJournal. I now rather regret giving this man any advice, as any action that brings him more readers serves only to allow him to spread his bully pulpit bile ever wider.

But I also found a petty, lonely little man who clearly, desperately wishes to become a professional paid cartoonist, but cannot muster the energy, skill or determination to do what's needed to become such, and too obstinate and petulant to accept any help or advice towards that goal. Hell, he actively rejects it.

Why am I still here? As I said, I once liked Questor. I now have a very hard time seeing it as it's own story; it is now dimmed by the stain of it's creator, and that is, to me, a loss.

Again, why am I still here? I harbor a faint hope that Mr. Hayes can bring himself to make the changes necessary to improve his strips. I am not suggesting that he discard or even suppress his faith, and I do not in any circumstance expect him to tone down the hate and theist propaganda. What I am suggesting is that he simply alter his schedule to be more consistent and regular (which should be absurdly easy) and to post said schedule on the front page.

I am suggesting that he place Onions in it's own page or even as it's own strip. This too, is absurdly easy, requiring only the registration of another plug-and-play ComicsGenesis site.

I am suggesting that he dial back or preferably eliminate the filler art and greeting cards. Or, at the very least, post them with and preferably below the actual comic strip, not "instead of". And after the strip makes it's update after that, place the filler in a specific gallery for it, so it's not interrupting the archives. Another very easy change.

I suggested that he take the non-Questor strips out of his archives, and place those, too, in a specific seperate gallery. That way new readers that start at the beginning can read through smoothly, and without interruption, and will therefore be more likely to get "hooked" on the story, and thus stick around as regular readers. This one will take a bit of work moving files and resetting the AutoKeen calendar, but is still relatively easy and will be of considerable benefit.

Are any of these things too much to ask? Is implementing them really such an umbrage on Mr. Hayes' faith and beliefs?

To Skull, I have but one thing to say:
"Door's to your left."


Thank you. That's precisely the attitude I got from all three comics, from this board, and from Mr. Hayes himself.

"Go away".

Now, please tell me; is that the proper attitude for a comic strip the author hopes to one day earn a living at? A strip that, in order to generate any sort of income, must work to bring in new readers and keep the ones he has?

If one is going to actively drive away readers, then one best not complain about poor sales.

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Postby Canis_lupus on Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:41 pm

Its been proven that if you don't use constructive criticism from your audience you will be hard pressed to become profitable. Using advice given to you is not showing weakness.
Last edited by Canis_lupus on Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Madmoonie on Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:01 pm

Canis_lupus wrote:Its been proven that if you use constructive criticism from your audience you will be hard pressed to become profitable. Using advice given to you is not showing weakness.


This is just me...but I do not think you typed what you meant to say. This is just a guess, however.

Skull, if you are that desperate to change things, try something other whining and complaining. Petitions or polling might work. And if they don't, well, tough muffins. Personally, I like the way things are and am in no hurry to change it. But I might be the only, ask around and find out.
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