Persecution (Dec 2)

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Tom Mazanec
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Persecution (Dec 2)

Post by Tom Mazanec »

Yes, I am repulsed by tax dollars going to support "piss Christ" as art. For some reason that bothers me most of what Ralph listed on the strip. Maybe it is just me, I dunno...all of it bugs me but that most of all.
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Re: Persecution (Dec 2)

Post by BrockthePaine »

Tom Mazanec wrote:Yes, I am repulsed by tax dollars going to support "piss Christ" as art. For some reason that bothers me most of what Ralph listed on the strip. Maybe it is just me, I dunno...all of it bugs me but that most of all.
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Post by Dapple »

Given the complex state of Christian affairs. I and the fact that modern evangelical christianity prompotes nothing but socially benificial cuases, and great charitable acts.

What confuses me the most is were these guys even manage to find a reason to hate us.

I remember geting scofed at by my peers as far back as grade school for praying, and geting teased and harased all through my academic carrer. Finnaly when it got really bad one time I tolled a teacher, and she just rudly brushed me off. I was eventualy taken to the principle office. He asked me to "please stop praying, that blongs in chruch or at home". From that point on I have been very warry of praying in public, like I'm hiding something.

Were do they get off dictating my beleifs.

Even for sceptics there comes a time were ones mortality forces us to ask "what do I beleave". Fear of death sure has a way of opening up your eyes.
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Post by Madmoonie »

This has recently really begun to annoy me. The fact that because I am white, male, conservative. Republican (for the most part), and above all Chirstain, EVERYTHING that is wrong with the world is MY fault. I once saw a video in sociology class where they got a bunch of black and white and mixed race students together. One of the black students said something that to this day really bugs me. Because of slavery and the white oppresion of black before the Cival War, she will NEVER stop hating whites. And she will NEVER forgive them. I just look at this and think, "Why is this allowed?" Why, if a black person says something that is racist, it is allowed and tolerated because they are just 'expressing their ethnicity' but if a white person says that, they are practically crucified on live TV. It has now become wrong to be white and male and Christain.

There are probably people who will want to call me racist or a hate-criminal. Well, simply, YOU ARE WRONG. I believe in what Dr. King (Jr.) preached. Have you listened to 'I have a dream?" He is not preaching the superiorty of ANY race. He is preaching EQUALITY. And that is what I firmly believe in. If I am to respect what you believe, you have to respect me. And you can not play the problems of the world on me because I am white or male or Christain.

You know, back to the reiligion issue, not long (like two weeks) a rather liberal frined of mine said "The way Christains think they are right and everyone is wrong, is WRONG." I laughed and said, "You just contridicated yourself." When he asked me to explain, I said, if it is wrong to think that what I think is right and you think is wrong, you are making an exclusionary remark and also doing just what you said is wrong. He gave me the fish reutine again. It has become tolerated to bash Christains. But you know what? I am going to let them. Because I am not the judge. And I am far from holy. When people want to desicrate what I hold dear, I will ask them nicely to stop and then....be on my way.
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Post by Merry »

Wah-wah...

Seriously, try to be a (moderate) muslim nowadays!

(Not that I am, but honestly, just think about it...)

To your defense, you whould hear Jihad all over the place if you soak a Quran in Urine. Just try :cry:

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Post by Axelgear »

You're right about that to be sure. It did happen. Remember when (False) rumors of a Quran being placed on a toilet were leaked out to Newsweek? I think it was Newsweek anyway. There was a MASSIVE reprisal around the world.

I agree here quite rightly with most of the stuff there. If anyone has seen the infamous Kramer Outburst, where he snapped at a black heckler and yelled things like the n-word (Not gonna say it but you all know what it is) around twelve times in thirty seconds, jumping and yelling "Oh look, he can talk!". and saying "If this was 50 years ago, you'd be upside-down with a fork in your ***!". As I watched this, however, I just said "How is this racist? I've seen Chris Rock, Dave Chapelle, and other comedians do worse on a regular basis!" So apparently it IS wrong to be white...

As to religious things, I think the only people willing to go far enough were Tray Stone and Mat Parker, who make South Park. These guys may insult Christianity, but they insult EVERY religion. I think they were the only program makers I know to say "Hey! TV Networks! Wnho's gonna wuss out and who's gonna show the image of Mohammed!?" And to test them, they made an episode with Mohammed in it where he did nothing but hand over a football helmet. It was not shown. However, episodes with Jesus as a main character get shown without issue. Tray and Mat may be insulting but they're equal. Society is apparently not. So let us check off Christian from the list of things it's apparently amoral to be.

And now onto the last one. Being male. By nature in the world, the birth rate has a standard average of 104:100 of Male-to-Female. Then why do womens rights groups demand that all jobs have a minimum quota of women in the workplace? If you're female, you get extra time on maternity leave (Paternal leave is shorter but other groups are trying to change that), seperating the child from the parents, or the father at least, and an assured position at many jobs. I also constantly see on the TTC (The local subway) signs that read "On busses travelling at anywhere from 1 to 9 in the morning, women can request stops in between normal stops to get closer to their home." What about men? Are we supposed to ENJOY getting mugged? So, check males off the list too.

So, yes, you're right, it's apparently amoral to be a white male Christian. I've been advocating against Political Correctness, but the only result so far is my teachers hate me, especially the ultra-political Student Organizer and she's repeatedly passed me over for work opportunities because "She fears my apathetic and politically incorrect attitude would hamper the work environment."

So yes, RH, right on today. As are you Madmoonie.
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Post by Catherine_Puce »

All the actions listed are bad, the worst being the memorial and the burned church but like you said people don't kill, arrest or maim them for being religious. It's bad indeed but this burden is a challenge to you faith.

Religious hostility isn't new. You said it yourself USA born from people who flee them. What happen is simply a demonstration that even if we are more technologically advanced we almost didn't from the moral's side. The numanity is full of jerk and bully and it's not apout to change.

Anyway, if it would be a race and not a kind of believe, it would be the same. It would be as wrong but predicyable if you check a little our history. USA declare war on Vietnam because they believed in a different economical system, they fighted native americans to take their lands (and we can considerate them like a race) and what to said about the actions of the KKK against human with black skin color. All of what happened was as wrong that kill people for the believe but it happen in our recent past and it will happen again.

L'humanité est très encline à entre-tuer pour la moindre différence.

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Post by LoneWolf23k »

Uh, Cath? Some clarifications..

The US sent troops into Vietnam because the communists there were using military force to overthrow a democratic government and install a communist dictatorship.

Won't argue with the native american thing.

The KKK has never been publically accepted in the US beyond a brief period where it had some influence as a secret society throughout the south.

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Post by Shyal_malkes »

I recall being made fun of in school. less because I was a christian and more because I was/am LDS.

later I found out that a lot of the teachers and office workers considered me one of the best behaved students in my grade (apparently my grade was a wild and uncontrollable bunch)

these days I'm not so sure about the kind of tollerance they'd have toward me anymore. my mom has already pulled my sister out of school (she is a second grader) due to stupidity in the school system.

well, I guess the most I can really do about it for the moment is to not participate in the persecution.
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Post by Zobeid »

It never fails to amaze me how Christians -- despite their overwhelming majority and dominance in our society, and all the privileges they enjoy -- somehow manage to portray themselves as the underdogs, the oppressed community, always under siege. It really boggles the mind.

I am not the only one to make this observation. . .

http://blogs.chron.com/bluebayou/2006/0 ... pdate.html

http://www.atheistcoalition.org/docs/sitdown.html

http://angryoldbroad.blogspot.com/2006/ ... tians.html

http://www.atheistparents.org/pages.php?sc=001&pg=0160

http://blogher.org/node/9639

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Post by Sapphire »

LoneWolf23k wrote: The KKK has never been publically accepted in the US beyond a brief period where it had some influence as a secret society throughout the south.
Uh, LoneWolf?

There is significant evidence that several prominent politiciancs, including presidents, were Klan members.

It has been publically accepted in the U.S. It was more than a brief period. It was more than the South.

Hayes...

Are we in the same America? 'cause the one I live in has had an all-Christian congress for as long as I've lived...

And, once more, when one Muslim was elected, he said he wouldn't swear in on the Bible. but instead, the Koran, this was the result. (I'd like to remind everyone that there are four Presidents in American history who were not sworn in on a Bible. I'll leave it to you to find out who.)

What schools did you go to? My schools, All throughout Kentucky in Lousiville, Lexington, Versailles and Shelbyville, continued to pray at assemblies. There was a group at Woodford County Middle, who migrated with me to WC High, who prayed loudly at lunch, hands linked. No outcry. No one stopped them. Some people joined.

Hayes, I live in the America of Jerry Falwell, Rick Scarborough, Bill Rice Ranch, Gary Birdsong, Bob Enyart, Harold Ockenga, Lester Roloff, R. K. Johnson, Harry A. Ironside, Tim LaHaye, Bob Larson, Hal Lindsey, Edward John Carnell, Jack Chick (and Chick Publications), Ralph Ovadal, Terry Meeuwsen, Pat Robertson, Rebecca Brown, James Dobson, Grover Norquist, Paul Weyrich, Fred Phelps, George Allen, Rick Santorum, and all three Bob Jones.

Hayes, I live in the America of the 700 Club, the Family Research Council, the Heritage Foundation, the Project for the New American Century, the 'Moral Majority,' Focus on the Family, The Dominionist movement, Christian Reconstructionism, the Arlington Group, Bob Jones University, the ACCC, the Christian Coalition, the Left Behind series, the Defenders of the Christian Faith, and The Death Cookie.

God is still on the money. Xe's still in the Pledge of Allegiance. And Christmas is still a National Holiday.

What do you want? Do you want the Christian faith to never be attacked? Never be ridiculed? Never face a moment of scorn and for nothing to ever question it? Christianity has no greater power, is never less persucuted, in America than in any other place in the world.

You mentioned race. Do you really pretend racism is gone, or that there are more instances of abuse in the name of Christianity in comparison to race, gender, sexuality or other religions?

Piss Christ is 17 years old. Is this all you got? I'm surprised you didn't mention the much-more-recent Virgin Mary painted out of dung, except that that doesn't really help your case, what with the backlash at the Brooklyn Museum, the lawsuit between Offli and Giuliani, and the pulling of the painting.

"Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them...

There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on one's behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both. I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in 'A,' 'B,' 'C,' and 'D.' Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of 'conservatism.'" - Barry Goldwater, prophet.

Hayes, you're a straight, white, Christian republican male. No matter how much you want to believe you're being persucuted, no matter how much it would help you say what you want to say and no matter how much it would make you a poor, pathetic darling and help make right everything you say:

YOU ARE NOT BEING PERSECUTED. DEAL WITH IT.
I would have hoped to say something meaninful, or possible inciteful. But, alas.
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How goes the world today? Clockwise or Counter? Perhaps it will spin itself mad, curling a spring-from into endlessness.
Or maybe, today, it will just stop.

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Post by Tom Mazanec »

I do not feel persecuted, or at least not as much as others. I am more "persecuted" for my Asperger's than for my Catholicism (and I have been told that I would go to hell unless I left the Church...I wonder if Ralph considers me a "Christian"). But I feel angry over the things that Ralph listed, just as I feel angry about persecutions of Muslims (one of whom, a librarian, is a friend), atheists, etc. But I have to focus on one thing, or my head would explode. I chose to focus on abortion. YMMV.
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Post by Sapphire »

Tom Mazanec wrote:I do not feel persecuted, or at least not as much as others. I am more "persecuted" for my Asperger's than for my Catholicism (and I have been told that I would go to hell unless I left the Church...I wonder if Ralph considers me a "Christian"). But I feel angry over the things that Ralph listed, just as I feel angry about persecutions of Muslims (one of whom, a librarian, is a friend), atheists, etc. But I have to focus on one thing, or my head would explode. I chose to focus on abortion. YMMV.
Very reasonable. I'd also like to apologize if the tone of my previous post was too harsh, or too general.

Just as you focus on abortion, I focus on the dominionist movement in American politics, as well as some of the larger subpoints. ID for one. Gay unions for another. The 10 commadments on legal/political property for a third. Christianism is on the rise, and claiming a political faction has God on it's side is dangerous, destructive, and creates the opposite of political and ethical debate.

I had a friend who had Asperger's. Fun guy. Dan "The Man," everyone called him (last name withheld for lack of consent). Everyone liked him. But from what I knew of him, what you say rings true.
I would have hoped to say something meaninful, or possible inciteful. But, alas.
How goes the world today? From right to left or left to right? Perhaps it runs round mad reels, turning in on itself only at long last to blow away with the leaves and gutter-trash.
How goes the world today? Top to Bottom or Bottom to Top? Perhaps it will rise high enough so that it may see the back of its own head, in a maddening tunnel of infinity.
How goes the world today? Clockwise or Counter? Perhaps it will spin itself mad, curling a spring-from into endlessness.
Or maybe, today, it will just stop.

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Post by RTF »

I don't think it's persecution - or at least, I wouldn't apply the term seriously - because that would imply some *actual* socioeconomic limitation imposed on Christians. We know this is not really the case. The group is merely made fun of, and politically attacked by some quarters. The media, too, weighs in with its own prejudices(witness the numerous commercials with some white male being beaten up or humiliated, and almost never with another race or gender). But if this can be called persecution, it's a persecution of words, not of the sort that involves beating, killing, rape, property destruction, blackballing, or other means of significant harm. That when we get picked on, it's mostly at the lowest levels of power - media organizations, schools, small bastions of bureaucracy - shows that within the U.S., we have the smallest historical burden and the largest power of any of today's religious groups. In most countries this seems to be the general rule - not just Christians, but whoever the obvious ruling group is. It's inevitable that someone will be upset about such situations.

It's the result of something we, individually, have little control over. Easier just to have a thick skin about it.

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Post by RHJunior »

Dapple wrote:Given the complex state of Christian affairs. I and the fact that modern evangelical christianity prompotes nothing but socially benificial cuases, and great charitable acts.

What confuses me the most is were these guys even manage to find a reason to hate us.
Because we are the only thing standing in the way of their orgy.
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Post by Deckard Canine »

sapphire wrote:And, once more, when one Muslim was elected, he said he wouldn't swear in on the Bible. but instead, the Koran, this was the result.
That's pretty ironic. You'd think it would be in their interest to make sure that someone swears on whatever he considers holy; otherwise he's not as likely to uphold his oath.
What do you want? Do you want the Christian faith to never be attacked?
Where the government is concerned, yes. Piss Christ may have a place in a museum without tax funding. (I think I mentioned before that that artwork annoys me in large part because it's not creative, deep, difficult, or aesthetic -- just cathartic to those who hate Jesus or at least the worship of him.)
Do you really pretend racism is gone,
Again, you're not likely to find the government taking something down for being "too Black-specific," for instance.

Nevertheless, I agree that the pro-Christian stuff overall probably outweighs the anti-Christian stuff. As it happens, my public schools were pretty secular (elementary school Pledge aside) but not unfriendly to Christianity, with some church songs sung in the choruses.

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Post by Axelgear »

I think the summation of this whole thing has been a bit funny. It's obvious that is what happening isn't so much a persecution, but effectively theological racism. The truth is, however, that there has been a serious reduction in conflict because of how the majority of Christians taken it and not so much as squeaked. I think Tray Parker and Mat Stone had the right idea by saying "If one group is fair game, anything is."

Maybe we should just get people realizing it's their choice to view these things? South Park is a great example. I choose to watch most episodes but those that are blasphemous to my faith, I do not watch. Shouldn't other people practice the same restraint? If it's not hurting anyone, I do not complain, and I think everyone, be they Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, could all learn to realize that a lack of harming others is essentially what society is based on. When you enforce your beliefs on others, conflict occurs, but if society comes to a compromise (As happened in the formation of pretty much EVERY constitutional democracy), everyone is happy.

So I'm not gonna see a Crucifix soaked in urine and definitely will object to the government paying for it... But can I do any more than try and talk the person out of it? Nope. As much as it hurts to say that, I cannot stop them without opening the door to others stopping me from doing something that is abhorent to their beliefs. If I stop him, the same reasoning prevents me from eating Pork or Shellfish. I'm just gonna ask him politely to stop, not gonna pay him to do it, and walk away, and I hope other people will do the same.

So that's my 2 cents. I don't wanna start an argument. I'm just gonna go laugh at the Flat Earth Society now.

Axel, out.
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Post by Catherine_Puce »

LoneWolf23k wrote:Uh, Cath? Some clarifications..

The US sent troops into Vietnam because the communists there were using military force to overthrow a democratic government and install a communist dictatorship.

Won't argue with the native american thing.

The KKK has never been publically accepted in the US beyond a brief period where it had some influence as a secret society throughout the south.
About the vietnam, from what I learn the born of the problem is when Diem government cancelled the election to reunite the vietnam because the communist seemed almost certain to win. Maybe it's it's a mistake of my part or maybe it's just a different point of view but it seem to me that this democraty lacked of rightness.

About the KKK isn't not publically accepted but the oppression stay. It's not because it's not official that the hostility aren't real.

Le raciste n'a pas besoin d'être officiel pour faire mal.

S.P.P.

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Post by Sapphire »

Okay, everyone seems to be focusing on one particular piece of evidence for 'Christian persucution.' Spefically: Piss Christ.

So let's go over this to make sure everyone understands what exactly this was.

1989. Winston-Salem, North Carolina. The Southeastern Center for Contemporary Art holds an annual contest for "Awards in the Visual Arts." It chooses, as its top prize, Andres Serrano's photograph depicting a plastic crucifix submerged in a glass of the artist's urine (and, it is argued, some of his blood.) The problem came that some of the $15,000 the SCCA gave to Serrano came from a money they recieved from the National Endowment for the Arts. In reaction, Former U.S. Senators Jesse Helms (R-NC) and Alfonse D'Amato (R-NY), along with 23 sitting senators, decried the SCCA along with the NEA and Serrano.

The point of contention I want to make clear is that government money went to the piece secondhand: It went to an art center who, in turn, gave it to a blasphemous artwork.

The problem here laid in the mishandling and rather egotistical recherche bullcrap pulled by the SCCA. Frankly, I think the thing's ridiculous, and the only reason it won anything was pure, flash-in-the-pan shock value.

The only thing more ridiculous is citing it to prove horrible America is treating Christians.
I would have hoped to say something meaninful, or possible inciteful. But, alas.
How goes the world today? From right to left or left to right? Perhaps it runs round mad reels, turning in on itself only at long last to blow away with the leaves and gutter-trash.
How goes the world today? Top to Bottom or Bottom to Top? Perhaps it will rise high enough so that it may see the back of its own head, in a maddening tunnel of infinity.
How goes the world today? Clockwise or Counter? Perhaps it will spin itself mad, curling a spring-from into endlessness.
Or maybe, today, it will just stop.

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Post by Canis_lupus »

Madmoonie wrote:This has recently really begun to annoy me. The fact that because I am white, male, conservative. Republican (for the most part), and above all Chirstain, EVERYTHING that is wrong with the world is MY fault. I once saw a video in sociology class where they got a bunch of black and white and mixed race students together. One of the black students said something that to this day really bugs me. Because of slavery and the white oppresion of black before the Cival War, she will NEVER stop hating whites. And she will NEVER forgive them. I just look at this and think, "Why is this allowed?" Why, if a black person says something that is racist, it is allowed and tolerated because they are just 'expressing their ethnicity' but if a white person says that, they are practically crucified on live TV. It has now become wrong to be white and male and Christain.

There are probably people who will want to call me racist or a hate-criminal. Well, simply, YOU ARE WRONG. I believe in what Dr. King (Jr.) preached. Have you listened to 'I have a dream?" He is not preaching the superiorty of ANY race. He is preaching EQUALITY. And that is what I firmly believe in. If I am to respect what you believe, you have to respect me. And you can not play the problems of the world on me because I am white or male or Christain.

You know, back to the reiligion issue, not long (like two weeks) a rather liberal frined of mine said "The way Christains think they are right and everyone is wrong, is WRONG." I laughed and said, "You just contridicated yourself." When he asked me to explain, I said, if it is wrong to think that what I think is right and you think is wrong, you are making an exclusionary remark and also doing just what you said is wrong. He gave me the fish reutine again. It has become tolerated to bash Christains. But you know what? I am going to let them. Because I am not the judge. And I am far from holy. When people want to desicrate what I hold dear, I will ask them nicely to stop and then....be on my way.
Well that crap is allowed because White christians are a majority and that makes them fair game.
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