The Duke of Dumb

Postby Lazerus on Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:00 pm

BrockthePaine wrote:
Lazerus wrote:France isn't socialist, their so socialist their effectivly communist. That's a whole different ball of wax.

The difference between socialism and communism is methodology: socialists pass laws, while communists pass laws and then arrests anybody who dares dissent. Not, per se "pure" communism where everything is supposed to be happy bunnies and chocolate cream pies for everybody, but the way communism works out in the real world.

I have always been of the opinion that the only difference between Communism and Socialism is that the Socialists don't have all the guns yet.

So if France is not a good example of a socialist country, what is?


No, it's a matter of scale you twit. Pointing at france and saying socailism is bad is like pointing at a drowning man and saying water is bad. Any idea taken to extremes is stupid.
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Postby TMLutas on Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:48 pm

Lazerus wrote:
BrockthePaine wrote:
Lazerus wrote:France isn't socialist, their so socialist their effectivly communist. That's a whole different ball of wax.

The difference between socialism and communism is methodology: socialists pass laws, while communists pass laws and then arrests anybody who dares dissent. Not, per se "pure" communism where everything is supposed to be happy bunnies and chocolate cream pies for everybody, but the way communism works out in the real world.

I have always been of the opinion that the only difference between Communism and Socialism is that the Socialists don't have all the guns yet.

So if France is not a good example of a socialist country, what is?


No, it's a matter of scale you twit. Pointing at france and saying socailism is bad is like pointing at a drowning man and saying water is bad. Any idea taken to extremes is stupid.


Oh please enlighten us as to the "maximum safe dose" of socialism is? You know, the one that's multi-generation stable and proven to be a success. That one, the one that people have been looking for a century and a half and not finding...
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Postby Kerry Skydancer on Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:50 pm

Lazerus wrote:
BrockthePaine wrote:
Lazerus wrote:France isn't socialist, their so socialist their effectivly communist. That's a whole different ball of wax.

The difference between socialism and communism is methodology: socialists pass laws, while communists pass laws and then arrests anybody who dares dissent. Not, per se "pure" communism where everything is supposed to be happy bunnies and chocolate cream pies for everybody, but the way communism works out in the real world.

I have always been of the opinion that the only difference between Communism and Socialism is that the Socialists don't have all the guns yet.

So if France is not a good example of a socialist country, what is?


No, it's a matter of scale you twit. Pointing at france and saying socailism is bad is like pointing at a drowning man and saying water is bad. Any idea taken to extremes is stupid.


It's more like pointing at a man dying of cyanide poisoning and saying that cyanide is bad. Socialism is -toxic-, even in small doses. Water isn't.
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Postby Brannick on Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:50 pm

Actually, no, it's not a matter of scale. (And name calling doesn't help you make your point.)

Any engineer will tell you the bigger a system gets, the more complicated it gets. Complication indexes failure, especially when a system gets to the point where no one person can understand the complete system.

That's the core problem with socialism.

It starts small with a nice idea. Let's all take care of one another. We'll all get together and build roads and bridges so we can travel about and have commerce. That's as far into the socialist lake as the Founding Fathers stuck their toe into.

But then we start complicating the system.

We should have universal education to College level. Well, that sounds nice, but who's going to pay for it? Oh, and let's add on a War on Poverty. And Universal health care, and universal housing, and universal car ownership and before long we've got universal poneys for every little girl that wants one.

Of course I'm stretching things to their absurd level to illistrate with humor. Where does it stop? How much is too much? For me, I think the Founding Fathers pretty much hit the nail on the head. Provide for the common defense, ensure domestic tranquility, print up a common method of exchange and STOP.

Government isn't our Mommy. Government, at best, is a referee in the game of life. It's a hard lesson from Confusius, but it's true.

"No matter where you are in life, you are exactly where you want to be."

Believe me, that's a bitter pill to swallow, but it's the truth. We come into this world pretty much the same. We can all work to make ourselves better. It doesn't matter to me that JD Rockefeller Jr. got born into wealth. So what? What has that got to do with me? His Grandpa was dirt poor and MADE something of himself. I can too. I don't need the fabled 'level playing field' it doesn't exist.

I just need to decide I want some of that and go make it happen.

So can you.
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Postby Nikas_Zekeval on Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:24 pm

MikeVanPelt wrote:All kinds of questions...

The current duke is only two years in the position. He first lowered taxes... suddenly, there's a demand to pay "back taxes"... My suspicion is that maybe somone else has quietly usurped power and wants the old, heavy taxes, retroactively.

Someone local? Or is there a king who has come down with hobnailed boots on the less larcenous young duke? How old is this duke, anyway?


The Younger Duke could have just come into a sudden need for money. Gambling debts, Danegeld (either new or recently increased), has to chip in to pay a ransom, or pay one all on his own. Or maybe he just saw this shiney new 'magical witch rat artifact' he just has to have...

As for the future prosperity or even survival of his serfs? Not his problem, just like the IRS 'guilty until proven innocent, even if you had to have broken the laws of physics to be guilty' SOP.
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Postby Rangers on Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:47 pm

All that aside, look what's happened. The good farmer has opened up to Quentyn. A good sign, I believe.
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Postby UncleMonty on Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:36 pm

Maybe the farmer is hoping Quentyn can solve his problems with his "magic".

In truth, even if Quentyn could raise cattle from the stones of the ground for the farmer, those cattle would only be taken by the Duke's men, to help support the ongoing oppression of the people.
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Postby Kerry Skydancer on Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:39 pm

Well, if the Duke - or his handler - is hoarding Racconan artifacts, Quentyn can kill two birds with one stone - retrieve the gadgets, AND play Robin Hood. Wouldn't a human community well disposed to the Rac Cona Daimh be a good thing?
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Postby TMLutas on Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:20 am

Brannick wrote:Actually, no, it's not a matter of scale. (And name calling doesn't help you make your point.)

Any engineer will tell you the bigger a system gets, the more complicated it gets. Complication indexes failure, especially when a system gets to the point where no one person can understand the complete system.

That's the core problem with socialism.

It starts small with a nice idea. Let's all take care of one another. We'll all get together and build roads and bridges so we can travel about and have commerce. That's as far into the socialist lake as the Founding Fathers stuck their toe into.

But then we start complicating the system.

We should have universal education to College level. Well, that sounds nice, but who's going to pay for it? Oh, and let's add on a War on Poverty. And Universal health care, and universal housing, and universal car ownership and before long we've got universal poneys for every little girl that wants one.

Of course I'm stretching things to their absurd level to illistrate with humor. Where does it stop? How much is too much? For me, I think the Founding Fathers pretty much hit the nail on the head. Provide for the common defense, ensure domestic tranquility, print up a common method of exchange and STOP.

Government isn't our Mommy. Government, at best, is a referee in the game of life. It's a hard lesson from Confusius, but it's true.

"No matter where you are in life, you are exactly where you want to be."

Believe me, that's a bitter pill to swallow, but it's the truth. We come into this world pretty much the same. We can all work to make ourselves better. It doesn't matter to me that JD Rockefeller Jr. got born into wealth. So what? What has that got to do with me? His Grandpa was dirt poor and MADE something of himself. I can too. I don't need the fabled 'level playing field' it doesn't exist.

I just need to decide I want some of that and go make it happen.

So can you.


I'm going to have to disagree with you on what socialism is. It's not "we're all going to take care of each other" as that feature is found in christianity and other systems as well. Socialism is where the collective impulse to help is codified and mandated by law, complete with legal penalties for shirking.

Using the state to mandate compassion and social solidarity is such a nice crutch that I believe that there is no level at which there is not a constant temptation for *MORE*, to a level which it constitutes a hazard.
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Postby Lazerus on Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:14 am

Kerry Skydancer wrote:
Lazerus wrote:
BrockthePaine wrote:
Lazerus wrote:France isn't socialist, their so socialist their effectivly communist. That's a whole different ball of wax.

The difference between socialism and communism is methodology: socialists pass laws, while communists pass laws and then arrests anybody who dares dissent. Not, per se "pure" communism where everything is supposed to be happy bunnies and chocolate cream pies for everybody, but the way communism works out in the real world.

I have always been of the opinion that the only difference between Communism and Socialism is that the Socialists don't have all the guns yet.

So if France is not a good example of a socialist country, what is?


No, it's a matter of scale you twit. Pointing at france and saying socailism is bad is like pointing at a drowning man and saying water is bad. Any idea taken to extremes is stupid.


It's more like pointing at a man dying of cyanide poisoning and saying that cyanide is bad. Socialism is -toxic-, even in small doses. Water isn't.


Yessss. That's right, because post-industrial revolution Britian proved that well. Man, it was a paradise, what with all the unregulated captialism and all. It's a wonder the idea of socialism was written at all in such an enviroment.

I mean really, given the number of kids who had their fingers mangled in machine presses, I'm amazed someone was able to write it down at all.

Oh, and the total lack of public utilites, regulations, or public schooling? Those work together great! See, you won't even notice that you can't read or write when you drop dead from lead posioning and cancer at age 16.

And the "safe dose" of socialism, you cretin, is the minimum amount needed to promote the economy. Too little, or none, and the society quickly devlops a huge rich-poor gap, becomes unstable, and leads to general misery and eventual revolution. Too much, and you get, well, France.

Any engineer will tell you the bigger a system gets, the more complicated it gets. Complication indexes failure, especially when a system gets to the point where no one person can understand the complete system.

That's the core problem with socialism.


That's communism. Your one braincell is making a herculean effort there, kudos to the little guy, but you need to look at more then the ism on the end. Socialism does not involve top-down control of the economy.

We should have universal education to College level. Well, that sounds nice, but who's going to pay for it? Oh, and let's add on a War on Poverty. And Universal health care, and universal housing, and universal car ownership and before long we've got universal poneys for every little girl that wants one.

Of course I'm stretching things to their absurd level to illistrate with humor. Where does it stop? How much is too much? For me, I think the Founding Fathers pretty much hit the nail on the head. Provide for the common defense, ensure domestic tranquility, print up a common method of exchange and STOP.

Government isn't our Mommy. Government, at best, is a referee in the game of life. It's a hard lesson from Confusius, but it's true.


Communism, not Socialism. You are the weakest link, goodbye.

"No matter where you are in life, you are exactly where you want to be."


Okay, tell you what. I'll drop you down in society, you can't read because there's no schools, your dying of lead posioning because you can't afford bottled water and have to drink from the poluted streams, and you have mangled fingers and a horrible speach impediment from all the times you got parts of your body crushed in a machine.

Lets see YOU stuggle to the top.
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Postby BrockthePaine on Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:34 am

Ah yes, reverting to the normal tactics of the leftists: when you can't compete intellectually, start calling people names and quoting popular television shows, because that demonstrates decisively that you are more astute a debater than your opponents. :roll:

Ok now, ignoring the comedy routine, would you kindly answer my question from earlier - what country, in your mind, has the "perfect mix" of socialism? You've already stated socialism has gone too far in France - so what's your model? Sweden? Venezuela? Britain?
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Postby Brannick on Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:05 am

Lazerus wrote:
That's communism. Your one braincell is making a herculean effort there, kudos to the little guy, but you need to look at more then the ism on the end. Socialism does not involve top-down control of the economy.


My, you rather spectaularly misunderstood what I was saying, and based on your previous posts, I shall endevor to employ smaller words in the hopes that I'm not just feeding a troll. What I was explaining was not communism, but a basic engineering principle.

While it does apply to communism it applies just as easily to Capitalism, Socialism and Aircraft design. Perhaps if you weren't feeling so defensive, you could have grasped that.

Communism, not Socialism. You are the weakest link, goodbye.


While that's very nice on an intellectual level, can you really go that high(?), the world has never seen a Communist society. They're IMPOSSIBLE to impliment above a tribal level of about 30 people. There are just more militant versions of Socalism.

Good bye? Are you going somewhere?


Okay, tell you what. I'll drop you down in society, you can't read because there's no schools, your dying of lead posioning because you can't afford bottled water and have to drink from the poluted streams, and you have mangled fingers and a horrible speach impediment from all the times you got parts of your body crushed in a machine.

Lets see YOU stuggle to the top.


Gosh, how are we here according to you? The human race should have been wiped out baised on your version of the 19th century! As for you challenge, well, let's take a quick look over at Wikipedia and call the roll shall we?

My my! Andrew Carnegie who's full bio can be found here TAUGHT HIMSELF TO READ and became one of those evil capitalists you rail about. He went on to become one of the world's richest men back in the day and then one of the world's greatest philantropists before he died. He endowed thousands of libaries, schools and scholarships, but you say without the government people don't become educated!

Too old you say? Well how about Bill Gates the world's richest college drop out? Thirteen years as the worlds richest man who's retired from Microsoft to begin a career of full time philantropy! Goodness, there's that doing the right thing again!

We can go round and round about this Lazerus but I'm afraid the simple answer really is the best.

You are wrong. Live with it.
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Postby Merry on Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:09 am

Brannick wrote:You are wrong. Live with it.


But so are you. Both systems wont work, if you take it to the extremes. It is indeed no wonder socialism got invented after things where really bad with extreme capitalism. The Problem is, its kind of hard to invent the next better thing after socialism. The next System should provide you with everything you need to get off your feet, but should be hard enough to get you to work so you stay upright. Its not fair to assume just because someone managed to learn to read/write himself (a thing I wouldnt think i could do myself, and I taught myself a few things) everyone should do so on their own - because only the fewest can actually do that.
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Postby Merry on Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:15 am

What I dont get: what is the Duke doing with all the Cows and Goats and stuff?

If he butchers stuff, he is swimming in food for a short, short time. If he is breeding them, he is a very big farmer, with his army for farmhands (they usually do a very poor job at it) - and i doubt he is trying to do that.

Selling the stuff offshore? Quick money boost, alright. But not big enough if you cripple your own economy by doing so. if you take every Cow, there wont be new cows. They dont just respawn 8-)
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Postby Lazerus on Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:16 am

BrockthePaine wrote:Ah yes, reverting to the normal tactics of the leftists: when you can't compete intellectually, start calling people names and quoting popular television shows, because that demonstrates decisively that you are more astute a debater than your opponents. :roll:

Ok now, ignoring the comedy routine, would you kindly answer my question from earlier - what country, in your mind, has the "perfect mix" of socialism? You've already stated socialism has gone too far in France - so what's your model? Sweden? Venezuela? Britain?


America, in my opinion, has slightly too little in some areas, and slightly too much in others. Medicine should be socialized more, because it's in the companies best interests to keep you sick, that's not something that the private sector does well. Just about everything else should be socialized less.

And way to actually not address any of my points.

My, you rather spectaularly misunderstood what I was saying, and based on your previous posts, I shall endevor to employ smaller words in the hopes that I'm not just feeding a troll. What I was explaining was not communism, but a basic engineering principle.

While it does apply to communism it applies just as easily to Capitalism, Socialism and Aircraft design. Perhaps if you weren't feeling so defensive, you could have grasped that.


No, it dosn't. You havn't demonstrated as such.

While that's very nice on an intellectual level, can you really go that high(?), the world has never seen a Communist society. They're IMPOSSIBLE to impliment above a tribal level of about 30 people. There are just more militant versions of Socalism.

Good bye? Are you going somewhere?


It's a quote.

My my! Andrew Carnegie who's full bio can be found here TAUGHT HIMSELF TO READ and became one of those evil capitalists you rail about. He went on to become one of the world's richest men back in the day and then one of the world's greatest philantropists before he died. He endowed thousands of libaries, schools and scholarships, but you say without the government people don't become educated!


The funny thing is, I recall him being.....what's that word.....famous, for doing just that. It's not a normal occurance. Yes, there are people who could rise to the top over any obstacle, including, but not limited too, being dead. But the vast majority of people can't, they'll be stuck at the bottom, suffering.
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Postby RHJunior on Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:22 am

Spoken like a true child of the "whiny brat" generation.
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Postby BrockthePaine on Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:23 am

Lazerus wrote:
BrockthePaine wrote:Ah yes, reverting to the normal tactics of the leftists: when you can't compete intellectually, start calling people names and quoting popular television shows, because that demonstrates decisively that you are more astute a debater than your opponents. :roll:

Ok now, ignoring the comedy routine, would you kindly answer my question from earlier - what country, in your mind, has the "perfect mix" of socialism? You've already stated socialism has gone too far in France - so what's your model? Sweden? Venezuela? Britain?


America, in my opinion, has slightly too little in some areas, and slightly too much in others. Medicine should be socialized more, because it's in the companies best interests to keep you sick, that's not something that the private sector does well. Just about everything else should be socialized less.

And way to actually not address any of my points.

Ah, so like the socialized health care system in Britain? Where 2 million people on the government medicine plan have been unable to get dentistry care for years, resulting in such extreme cases as a man having to superglue his own tooth back in? Or in India, where government hospitals are so bad that there are regular cases of maggots eating out patients' eyes? (The privately-funded ones are a lot better - just keep that in mind if you ever get sick in India.)
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Postby Lazerus on Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:47 am

BrockthePaine wrote:
Lazerus wrote:
BrockthePaine wrote:Ah yes, reverting to the normal tactics of the leftists: when you can't compete intellectually, start calling people names and quoting popular television shows, because that demonstrates decisively that you are more astute a debater than your opponents. :roll:

Ok now, ignoring the comedy routine, would you kindly answer my question from earlier - what country, in your mind, has the "perfect mix" of socialism? You've already stated socialism has gone too far in France - so what's your model? Sweden? Venezuela? Britain?


America, in my opinion, has slightly too little in some areas, and slightly too much in others. Medicine should be socialized more, because it's in the companies best interests to keep you sick, that's not something that the private sector does well. Just about everything else should be socialized less.

And way to actually not address any of my points.

Ah, so like the socialized health care system in Britain? Where 2 million people on the government medicine plan have been unable to get dentistry care for years, resulting in such extreme cases as a man having to superglue his own tooth back in? Or in India, where government hospitals are so bad that there are regular cases of maggots eating out patients' eyes? (The privately-funded ones are a lot better - just keep that in mind if you ever get sick in India.)


As opposed to our hospital system, where patiants are routly operated on by generalist who have had a 5min breifing on this procedure instead of a specialist, because the general doctor dosn't want to split the profits?

Oh, India dosn't count. That country has a whooole load of other problems beyond medical care.
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Postby Madmoonie on Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:14 pm

You know, Lazerus, I do not have a problem with you disagreeing with the various members of the forum, I mean, its a public forum and its your right and so on, but it kind of irks me that you seem to have an almost hatred with what I believe (or do not believe.) But I could get over that as well, again free speech and will and so on. What I happen to have a problem with is that you can not seem to defend or argue (whatever you want) your position without using profanity or insulting the forum members. Please stop that. There are plenty of people here who disagree with me but somehow manage to not insult me or use profanity. Try it.
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Postby Deckard Canine on Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:25 pm

Brannick wrote:It's a hard lesson from Confusius, but it's true.

"No matter where you are in life, you are exactly where you want to be."


Sometimes I like what Confucius says. Other times I get a headache from trying to figure out how he could possibly believe what he said.

Am I where I want to be? I seem to be getting there, but no, I am not exactly there. And Confucius must never have envisioned racial slavery or even the Hindu caste system.
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