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Racconan Martial Arts?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:00 am
by Timtitan
I was just going through the archives and I saw this and I was struck by how similar it is to the Art of Combat as taught in Italy and Germany in the Salles. I recognise it because I take lessons based on Fiore Dei Liberi's book on the subject.

It looks like the first dagger master followed by a boar's tooth strike. Albeit with the arm grabbed the wrong way round. A less nasty system perhaps? It gives more control for a strike I suppose but reduces your options afterwards.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:35 am
by StrangeWulf13
Well, first thing you should know before we go any further:

Writers are thieving b*st*rds. :lol: :roll: Seriously, we'll steal an idea from any place we can get it in order to help our story.

No doubt Ralph has done a little research on some basic martial art forms, and has implemented them into the comic. The fact that he took something European in nature fits rather well into the Questorverse, as the Rac Cona Daimh are something of a European culture (though they're also rather American in other respects), as are many of the surrounding countries no doubt.

It'd be interesting to see what kind of martial arts they use. 'Course, they can't be limited to just a few, as many Guardsmen train to fight all sorts of beasties using well-constructed golems in their likenesses. Ogres, humans, and others are made so the Guardsmen can learn how best to fight them.

They even have a dragon golem, though the running joke is that there's only one technique ever taught with it:

1. Point over dragon's shoulder and yell, "WHAT IS THAT?!"
2. Run away.

XD 'Course, when you're all alone, that probably is the best way to deal with one, whatever universe you're in...

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:46 pm
by Axelgear
... Konan Fu?

But as far as martial arts go, the pull-and-strike technique is pretty standard military technique, dating back even to Gladiatorial battles in Rome. The Retiari who fought using Tridents and Nets were countered using this very technique, as a fighter (Usually a Murmio, or even better, a Secularios) would wrap his shield arm around the trident when it was pushed at him, then extend his sword arm, cutting deep into the stomach of his opponent. This technique is easily adapted over time, as it is all about using your opponents over-extended body to your advantage. No single combat form can be attributed with this simply because of how incredibly common it is.

As to using a Golem to scare the life out of people... Well, that's what Flesh Golems are for.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:26 am
by Timtitan
well yes, one of the things thats kept me amused lately is the similarity between the art of battle as practised by italian and german knights, and the supposedly inovative eastern martial arts. As my instructor pointed out to me, when you get down to it, theres only so many ways to move your body to hurt somebody else's.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:38 pm
by StrangeWulf13
Yep, and I'm gonna be learning quite a few of 'em at my dojo. :roll: After I master the techniques that allow me to tie them in knots without actually breaking anything.

Some people will back down real quick when you show 'em you know how to inflict a great deal of pain... or can make them absolutely helpless against you...

PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:02 pm
by Axelgear
I have learned my fighting techniques from two places:

-My old Sensai (He was a bright teacher. Nice guy. He helped me realize my strengths lie in movement and getting in close.)

-My 300 pound ex-rugby playing brother. (He stopped playing because he caused too many injuries. I have a deformed rib thanks to him actually.)

And what I learned was that any formalized fighting style is useless when brought against an adaptive fighter. To make a person suffer, all you have to do is focus on the joints. The fingers, the elbow, the knee, the groin, the stomach... All these points are the vulnerable spots.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:14 pm
by Earl McClaw
Axelgear wrote:To make a person suffer, all you have to do is focus on the joints. The fingers, the elbow, the knee, the groin, the stomach... All these points are the vulnerable spots.

Or, as was said in the the movie "Road House":
Dalton wrote:Take the biggest guy in the world, shatter his knee and he'll drop like a stone.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:09 pm
by Axelgear
I do believe I said knee. Never heard of that movie though

And heck, doesn't matter how big someone is, break his fingers and toes, he can't fight you. Heck, dislocate them, you have a crying baby. Why? A fun trick I've learned...

Physics at work goes into every punch. When you hit, force is applied right back at you. The point of a punch is to do more damage than you recieve. If you make it far more painful for them to punch/kick you than it is for you, they will cease to do it. You, however, can continue to hurt them.

Also, something odd occured to me: Martial arts seemed to try and preserve their opponent as much as they do the person trained in them. When was the last time you heard of a martial art that involved training on how to gouge eyes or to sever fingers? Dirty fighting as it may be, if you can take out a 2 inch by two inch by one inch patch of flesh and muscle from your opponent, you can be damn sure they won't last too long, and if you take their eyes out, they can't fight anymore.

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:35 am
by MikeVanPelt
Axelgear wrote:Also, something odd occured to me: Martial arts seemed to try and preserve their opponent as much as they do the person trained in them. When was the last time you heard of a martial art that involved training on how to gouge eyes or to sever fingers?


You're thinking tornament martial arts.

Actual serious fighting martial arts, yes, gouged eyes, broken bones, shattered joints, serious permanent mamining, and death, are all part of the package.

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:00 am
by Wanderwolf
MikeVanPelt wrote:You're thinking tornament martial arts.

Actual serious fighting martial arts, yes, gouged eyes, broken bones, shattered joints, serious permanent mamining, and death, are all part of the package.


Quite. Tournament martial arts, as well as the tidied-up self-defense versions like aikido, are designed primarily as a spiritual exercise and general fitness system. Aikido's ancestors, such as Aiki-Budo and Yoshinkan, are more practically oriented.

The most completely practical martial art is Jeet Kune Do, developed by Bruce Lee; it focuses entirely on simple, basic principles:

1. Use your body to the best of its capability.
2. Hurt your opponent.
3. Try not to get hurt.

The guiding principle: Do what works, and do it well.

Or, as Bing Crosby's son once said to him, "You can play Marquis of Queensbury, Dad, but I fight dirty."

Yours truly,

The wolfish,

Wanderer

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:54 am
by Axelgear
This is also true, but even so, I repeat that the tactics remain the same. An example is that regimented soldiers in Ancient China were trained to use swords to stab and parry, but only very well trained Rebels ever managed to utilize it for somewhat more unconventional techniques such as slitting their opponents achilles tendons so he couldn't run and they'd just leave them there, either to be killed when they doubled back or just to bleed to death. It seems to me things like that are so bloody and brutal that they just don't appear...

Breaking a bone is one thing but trying to make your attacker bleed to death from a quick wound is a totally different, far more lethal strategy that I have never seen.

But please, if you can provide resources on such martial arts, inform me so I may know for future reference.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:39 am
by Wanderwolf
Axelgear wrote:This is also true, but even so, I repeat that the tactics remain the same. An example is that regimented soldiers in Ancient China were trained to use swords to stab and parry, but only very well trained Rebels ever managed to utilize it for somewhat more unconventional techniques such as slitting their opponents achilles tendons so he couldn't run and they'd just leave them there, either to be killed when they doubled back or just to bleed to death. It seems to me things like that are so bloody and brutal that they just don't appear...

Breaking a bone is one thing but trying to make your attacker bleed to death from a quick wound is a totally different, far more lethal strategy that I have never seen.

But please, if you can provide resources on such martial arts, inform me so I may know for future reference.


When China is involved, remember Bushido: The Warrior's Way, a code of action. According to Bushido, only those actions directly involved in defeating your opponent or enemy are "honorable". Thus, no taking hostages, no killing their family, no setting fire to their farmlands; those do not directly affect your opponent, so are not honorable.

On the other paw, poisoning your opponent to weaken him before a match *is* permitted. Likewise sabotaging his gear and bribing his support staff not to help him. Even attacking from behind, or attacking an unarmed opponent, is permitted, since they are still directly related to winning.

As for material:

Aiki-budo has its own federation, though there are no competitions and no color levels: The website is located here. Aiki-budo uses joint locks and leverage, as well as weapons (among them the katana, naginata, yari, and many others), since it is designed to be a true martial art. (The name literally translates as "joining spirit force-that-enables-peace way", where aikido is "joining spirit way".)

Yoshinkan also has a federation, located here. Literally translated as "House for Cultivating the Spirit", it is generally considered a "hard" form of aikido, focusing on form more than flow. This is a body-centered art, with weapons techniques available as an adjunct; it has 150 basic movements, and 3000 complex ones. It is still in use as a martial art by the Tokyo Police.

Jeet Kune Do, "Way of the Intercepting Fist", is less an art than a philosophy. Jun Fan himself (Bruce Lee to you and me) incorporated elements of Wing Chun, boxing, and fencing. It's designed almost exclusively for real melee combat, not tournament play, and can be downright brutal at times. The core concepts, as put forth by Bruce Lee himself, are:

"Be like water": Be as flexible as possible.

Economy of motion: Keep movements short and simple. Block and strike at the same time. Block your opponent when you can. And no high kicks! (Except when you can get away with it.)

Learn the four ranges of combat: Kicking, Punching, Trapping, Grappling, from farthest to nearest.

The Five Ways of Attack: Single Angular, Hand Immobilization, Progressive Indirect, Attack by Combinations, and Attack by Drawing.

The Three Parts of Jeet Kune Do: Efficiency, Directness, Simplicity.

Now, if you want to find an instructor, it boils down to Jun Fan JKD or JKD concepts. Jun Fan JKD is based strictly on the writings and instruction of Jun Fan himself, while JKD concepts instructors have evolved the style further. You can find Jun Fan JKD instructors through the Bruce Lee Foundation. JKD concepts instructors are a little harder to find, but they're out there.

Kali, on the other hand (literally) is a weapons style; the name is a contraction of the Filipino "kamut lihok", meaning "hand movement". It focuses on single and paired weapons, such as stick and dagger, large stick, and so on. It is often taught alongside other Filipino arts such as Dumog (wrestling), Panjackman (kicking, also called Sikaran), Panatuken (also called Suntuken, boxing) and Kino Mutai (infighting, including biting and eye gouging).

There are many styles, and they come from many countries. The truly effective ones will never die.

Yours truly,

The ever-learning,

Wanderer

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:52 am
by Nick012000
Bushido is Japanese, not Chinese. It's the Samurai's equivalent to the Medieval European code of Chivalry.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:25 am
by Wanderwolf
nick012000 wrote:Bushido is Japanese, not Chinese. It's the Samurai's equivalent to the Medieval European code of Chivalry.


"Bushi" is originally a Chinese word meaning "warrior", as the code itself borrowed from Chinese Confucianism. "Samurai" is completely Japanese, however, coming from the verb "saburau", meaning "to wait upon or accompany a person from the upper ranks of society". The noun form later became "saburai", and from there, "samurai".

The samurai is Japanese: The bushi is Chinese. The elements of bushido certainly existed long before, and were commemorated in Kojiki, the oldest known Japanese book. The term "bushido", however, is Chinese.

Yours truly,

The double-checking,

Wanderer

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:31 pm
by Canis_lupus
Bushido (武士道, Bushidō?), meaning "way of the warrior", is a Japanese code of conduct and a way of life, loosely analogous to the European concept of chivalry. Bushido developed between the 11th to 14th centuries as set forth by numerous translated documents dating from the 12th to 16th centuries (as mentioned below). According to the Japanese dictionary Shogakukan Kokugo Daijiten, "Bushido is defined as a unique philosophy (ronri) that spread through the warrior class from the Muromachi (chusei) period."

The core tenets of Bushido date from as early as the 12th century as demonstrated by the earliest translations of Japanese literature and warrior house codes. Under the Tokugawa Shogunate, Bushido became formalized into Japanese Feudal Law.

Inazo Nitobe, in his book Bushido: The Soul of Japan, described it in this way. "...Bushido, then, is the code of moral principles which the samurai were required or instructed to observe... More frequently it is a code unuttered and unwritten... It was an organic growth of decades and centuries of military career."


This was taken from wikipedia to help with any of the minor facts.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:03 am
by Wanderwolf
Also from Wikipedia, the article on Samurai:

"The word bushi (武士, lit. "warrior or armsman") first appears in an early history of Japan called Shoku Nihongi (続日本記, 797 A.D.). In a portion of the book covering the year 723 A.D., Shoku Nihongi states: "Literary men and Warriors are they whom the nation values". The term bushi is of Chinese origin and adds to the indigenous Japanese words for warrior: Tsuwamono and Mononofu. The terms bushi and samurai became synonymous near the end of the 12th century, according to William Scott Wilson in his book Ideals of the Samurai--Writings of Japanese Warriors."

Again, I'm not arguing that bushido, as a concept, is not Japanese; bushido as a term, however, is Chinese.

Yours truly,

The wolfish,

Wanderer

PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:02 am
by Shyal_malkes
when I was coming up with the fighting style in the fanfiction I based it off of the fighting style described in the book "the ninja and their secret fighting art" written by: Stephen K. Hayes

(that his last name is the same as our moderator is entirely coincidental, as it is the same last name as my current math teacher in CSCC.)

PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:39 am
by Tom Mazanec
Hey, there is both a lawyer and a priest people keep asking me if I am related to, and "Mazanec" is even less common than "Hayes". OK, please go back on topic :-)

PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:11 am
by Timtitan
The basic approach for unarmed and unarmoured combat will always remain the same,
Control their attack, then respond, preferably in a way that denies them another attack. Size does not actually hinder much, it is training and the will to use it that its the biggest factor.
For example, i'm quite a big chap (6"2) but I get beaten quickly be one of the instructors who is only about 5"4, In fact he uses my size against me. The only effective way to beat a strong well trained apponent unarmed who is bigger than you is to get in so close that they cannot effectivey use their reach against you, strike then retreat before they can put a hold on.
The smaller you are the more agressive you have to be to win

by those standards, Quentyn is going to have to be Very agressive to win a fight with a human

or just use weapons

PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:11 am
by The JAM
We once lived in a city where a leftist candidate had the same last name as we did. My parents got out of a LOT of traffic tickets that way: the policeman saw their licenses, balked when he saw our last name, apologised, and left.