Help stop the invasion

Postby Canis_lupus on Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:46 pm

Just an interesting lecture about Immigration, it shows some very intersting topics.
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Postby Brannick on Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:19 pm

TMLutas wrote:If the other identity holder provides only positive information to my records (ie, I'm already at the top bracket for taxes, my credit score is raised) I think you'd have a difficult time suing (there's a need to show harm there) and civil rules are generally looser than criminal when it comes to filing and evidentiary proof.


But that's not how it works. Speaking as someone who's had this happen to me, let me give you the short version.

I file my income taxes like a good citizen. I declare all my income, consult the tables and find, wonder of wonders, I get some small amount of my money back. The check (eventually) comes and I spend it.

A year or so goes by and an innocent looking letter from the IRS arrives. They've thoughtfully audited my EZ return and come to find out, I wasn't owed a refund, in fact, I owe $2,500, payable now thank you very much!

So I call up the IRS and politely ask where did this extra money come from that I didn't claim? Come to find out, while I was busy working a security job in Georgia I was also picking oranges in California on an I-9 (contract worker), changing tires in Utah and flipping burgers in Kentucky!

I politely suggest to the IRS 'Customer Service Rep' the impossiblity of this commute and am told, "That's not my problem. Either pay the back taxes or you can go jail, pay fines and interest, have your wages garnished before you go to jail and have all of your assets seized and sold at auction to cover the debt."

Tell me how that positively affected my bottom line?
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Postby TMLutas on Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:43 pm

Brannick wrote:
TMLutas wrote:If the other identity holder provides only positive information to my records (ie, I'm already at the top bracket for taxes, my credit score is raised) I think you'd have a difficult time suing (there's a need to show harm there) and civil rules are generally looser than criminal when it comes to filing and evidentiary proof.


But that's not how it works. Speaking as someone who's had this happen to me, let me give you the short version.

I file my income taxes like a good citizen. I declare all my income, consult the tables and find, wonder of wonders, I get some small amount of my money back. The check (eventually) comes and I spend it.

A year or so goes by and an innocent looking letter from the IRS arrives. They've thoughtfully audited my EZ return and come to find out, I wasn't owed a refund, in fact, I owe $2,500, payable now thank you very much!

So I call up the IRS and politely ask where did this extra money come from that I didn't claim? Come to find out, while I was busy working a security job in Georgia I was also picking oranges in California on an I-9 (contract worker), changing tires in Utah and flipping burgers in Kentucky!

I politely suggest to the IRS 'Customer Service Rep' the impossiblity of this commute and am told, "That's not my problem. Either pay the back taxes or you can go jail, pay fines and interest, have your wages garnished before you go to jail and have all of your assets seized and sold at auction to cover the debt."

Tell me how that positively affected my bottom line?


I would get the man's name and report his attitude to your congressman. The man's a disgrace. That out of the way, we're not talking about the same thing.

I was protesting the categorical denial that somebody can live their life honestly once they arrive illegally. In fact I know of one case, an english war bride, who came over without the proper paperwork in 1945. She never worked. So what further laws was she breaking? Her (US citizen) husband worked, supported her for her entire life. This isn't the common case but such cases do exist and they're why mere entry is treated so lightly. Sometimes it *is* not a big deal. Sometimes it is a very big deal (murderers, rapists, and other criminals are also sometimes illegal aliens). And sometimes it's in the middle as the burden on emergency rooms and your problem of people assuming your identity but not paying their taxes.

btw: there is no such thing as an I-9 employee. An I-9 is filed for every employee verifying their legal status as eligible to be in the US and work. I suspect that if you get the I-9 proofs (they xerox and save them) they will show several people's pictures, none of them yours. You might want to present that to the IRS in your appeal.
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Postby Earl McClaw on Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:05 pm

TMLutas wrote:I suspect that if you get the I-9 proofs (they xerox and save them) they will show several people's pictures, none of them yours. You might want to present that to the IRS in your appeal.

And get a tax court lawyer.

Yes, the IRS has its own courts. :ick:
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Postby RHJunior on Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:34 am

I was protesting the categorical denial that somebody can live their life honestly once they arrive illegally. In fact I know of one case, an english war bride<snip>


And if she was over here without proper legal documentation, <I>she was breaking the law, and continually breaking the law every day she stayed in America illegaly, </i> no matter what a nice little ducky she was.

Disregarding the fact that there are extensive provisions providing for the automatic nationalization of a war bride--- or of any person who marries a native-born American.

Illegal immigrants are not "nice people." They are criminals.
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Postby TMLutas on Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:18 am

RHJunior wrote:
I was protesting the categorical denial that somebody can live their life honestly once they arrive illegally. In fact I know of one case, an english war bride<snip>


And if she was over here without proper legal documentation, <I>she was breaking the law, and continually breaking the law every day she stayed in America illegaly, </i> no matter what a nice little ducky she was.

Disregarding the fact that there are extensive provisions providing for the automatic nationalization of a war bride--- or of any person who marries a native-born American.

Illegal immigrants are not "nice people." They are criminals.


Think, Ralph, just think a bit. You're betraying your own religious tradition if you automatically identify criminality with not being "nice people".

You commit a crime if you jaywalk. Does that make you not "nice people"? Of course it doesn't. I would bet that a good legal team could go through your life with a microscope and find a law or two that you are breaking right now, this very minute. Does that make you not "nice people"?

The USA is probably the greatest nation in the history of the world. I certainly can't think of any greater. That doesn't mean that it's perfect or that it can't/hasn't passed laws that are unjust and deserve disobedience whether you come at it from a christian or other religious perspective or you come tot he conclusion via Thomas Jefferson's right of rebellion.

There's a lot of evil that comes out of our current immigration system. Border crossing should not be done outside the system. But that doesn't mean that everybody who's outside the system is a mean piece of human trash either. Let's keep things in perspective.

I'm well aware of the naturalization process for foreign wives of US citizens. I'm also aware of how screwed up the system is by my journeys through it.

We care about illegal immigration this much because we offer so many goodies to citizens and legal residents and we've participated in the global system that has created such imbalances that it's dangerous for our system to return to a mostly free entry system right now. That doesn't mean that the present system is just, or good, or deserves anything other than grudging support until we can end it in an orderly fashion.

And if around the edges we get some people who generally keep their noses clean outside of their paperwork, well, cry me a river.
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Postby The JAM on Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:03 pm

At the risk of sounding like I'm "betraying my own people", I have to agree with Ralph. Jaywalking is punished with...what, a fine? Illegally crossing the border, while your intentions may be to send money to your ailing grandmother, is an international crime.
I'd say go ahead and build that wall. Hell, we need one on the Guatemala/Belize border, because those Salvatruchas are REALLY starting to get on my nerves.
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Postby TMLutas on Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:42 am

The JAM wrote:At the risk of sounding like I'm "betraying my own people", I have to agree with Ralph. Jaywalking is punished with...what, a fine? Illegally crossing the border, while your intentions may be to send money to your ailing grandmother, is an international crime.
I'd say go ahead and build that wall. Hell, we need one on the Guatemala/Belize border, because those Salvatruchas are REALLY starting to get on my nerves.


Funny enough, I'm in favor of a border wall too. Mexico has abused the privilege of our "take it easy" approach to migration. The government of Mexico has an obligation to create the conditions for enough jobs for the people of Mexico and they have gotten away with poor governance for decades because of the safety valve of US immigration. Besides that, Mexico seems to have a growing incidence of irredentists and those sorts of people just tick me off.
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Postby Deckard Canine on Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:18 pm

Alas, I cannot find the recent Joel Achenbach article online. In it, he questions not the ethics of a border wall but the practicality. He goes on to suggest all sorts of other things in the wall mentality, including a dome over the United States (which evokes the unofficial motto: "What happens in the rest of the world stays in the rest of the world").

Meanwhile, Latino wits ask where the government's going to find the builders for such a wall.
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Postby Canis_lupus on Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:59 pm

Walls wouldnt do that much to the determined aliens. check this out if you dont believe me
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Postby Axelgear on Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:13 pm

TMLutas wrote:Funny enough, I'm in favor of a border wall too. Mexico has abused the privilege of our "take it easy" approach to migration. The government of Mexico has an obligation to create the conditions for enough jobs for the people of Mexico and they have gotten away with poor governance for decades because of the safety valve of US immigration. Besides that, Mexico seems to have a growing incidence of irredentists and those sorts of people just tick me off.


Because we all know a Government can affect change just by willing it to be so...

But in all seriousness, Mexico, like Brazil, has not gotten away with poor governance. The two governments have been marred by a mixture of corruption, human rights abuses, and a weak economy. Mexico has sold most of it's useful natural resources (Oil, lumber, etc) to foreign companies, and now it is suffering from extreme population density. People move towards the jobs due to increasing hardship on farms and desertification, and then find there are not enough jobs to go around and either resort to crime or border jumping.

Want Mexico to fix itself? Get the Japanese/American/Other multinational companies there to pay the workers fair and equittable wages high enough that they don't have to have their kids drop out of school and come work in the factories, and so they can get an education. Once people can get an education, they can graduate from blue-collar to white-collar jobs, and break the poverty cycle. Education ends poverty, and poverty ends education. End poverty temporarily, and education diminishes it for good.

So the end point here is, if America or another nation with a lot of influence over Mexico (Canada is trying to do so but is having little effect. We have our own oil, cattle, and lumber, so what do we need from them?), they would most likely be able to affect change by threatening trade embargo's. However, it's doubtful anyone would do that, as it would result in them suffering just as much. And if America imported Oil only from Canada and/or the Middle East, Canada would have a much greater bargaining position. Maybe those illegal Softwood Lumber tariff's would even get dropped.

Anyway, that's my two cents...

And one last thing...

The USA is probably the greatest nation in the history of the world. I certainly can't think of any greater.


That's really more personal opinion. I can certainly argue a nation like England is a greater one, considering it is a nation that has lasted for well over a millenia, established human rights and freedoms, racial equity, and women's rights well before most Western nations, founded America, Canada, Australia (Which was founded as much by wealth-seekers, British Soldiers, and politicians as it was convicts) and many of the other nations people consider the powerhouses today. Could it not, therefore, be argued Britain is greater? Or heck, why not Sweden? I could definitely argue that too.
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Postby Canis_lupus on Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:12 pm

Axelgear wrote:
The USA is probably the greatest nation in the history of the world. I certainly can't think of any greater.


That's really more personal opinion. I can certainly argue a nation like England is a greater one, considering it is a nation that has lasted for well over a millenia, established human rights and freedoms, racial equity, and women's rights well before most Western nations, founded America, Canada, Australia (Which was founded as much by wealth-seekers, British Soldiers, and politicians as it was convicts) and many of the other nations people consider the powerhouses today. Could it not, therefore, be argued Britain is greater? Or heck, why not Sweden? I could definitely argue that too.


Define greatness.
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Postby Axelgear on Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:10 pm

My point exactly. It's a matter of personal opinion.
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Postby RHJunior on Thu Nov 30, 2006 1:33 pm

America is the greatest nation on earth because it accomplished in 200 years what every other nation on earth is STILL struggling to accomplish after two MILLENIA.

Don't like us? Resent us? hate us? Too bad we own everything :twisted:
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Postby Tom Mazanec on Thu Nov 30, 2006 1:44 pm

http://www.catholic.org/national/nation ... p?id=22164
We are also in considerable debt getting that everything.
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Postby NydaLynn on Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:14 pm

The JAM wrote:Thank you, Deckard. Yes, I'm a Mexican, living in Mexico, and working in Mexico. I will only cross the border by either plane, ferry, and only through an official port of entry, and only if I am invited and/or have enough money to enter as a LEGAL tourist, and for the record, I lived for 8 years near the Texas border, ya'll, and I have NEVER crossed the border illegally, and I have no intentions to do so in the near or far future.
I'll say that the US should slap a 50% tax on all money transfers that go out of the country if the sender cannot provide proof of legal residence, and revoke citizenship to anyone born of illegal immigrants since 1990.


Well said. I was rather ticked at Axelgear assuming you were in the US and curious to see your response. To have someone assume to such a huge degree... aaggh. :ick: Especially when I have thought back to all the times you speak up both patrioticly and realisticly in support of your own country. A number of people I know could learn from you.
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Postby NydaLynn on Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:29 pm

Tom Mazanec wrote:http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=22164
We are also in considerable debt getting that everything.


Lesse... $26,000 of personal debt.... I can work that off in a few years... right???? <.< ; >.>;
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Postby Calbeck on Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:16 pm

Axelgear wrote:1. I was referring not to high earners, I was referring to CEO's.


CEOs ARE "high earners", in case you hadn't noticed. Contrary to popular mythology, they get hit just like everyone else at the top end of the tax bracket, for 50% or more of their income. That means the guy you're griping about making $100,000,000 per year is paying FIFTY MILLION a year in taxes. And if you bother to do your research regarding tax shelters and other "outs", you find out that they're not outs at all --- they are ways by which the government directs investment into critical areas of the economy. A service is being performed in exchange for a limited tax break.

Nor does sticking all of your money in the Caymans help you avoid taxes. You're taxed on INCOME, bubby, not how much you actually have on hand in US dollars at any given time. Before you can send that cash off to the Caymans, you first have to give Uncle Sam his cut. For that matter, if you're a US citizen and make money from doing business in a different country, you STILL have to pony up taxes on it. The only way to avoid US taxes is to renounce US citizenship...and all the business opportunities that only a citizen can take advantage of.

I also know for a fact that the Cayman Islands has some of the richest banks in the world thanks to the top percent of income earners in the world funneling cash there.


And apparently you don't know WHY, so you just assume it's a tax dodge.

The fact is, the Caymans established their "dollar" in 1972 and fixed its exchange rate to one CI dollar per US $1.25. This makes the CI a very stable international currency for purposes of overseas trade, without tying up US currency for the purpose.

This is made especially tempting by the fact that the Caymans don't charge any kind of tax themselves...not for income, residency, capital gains or anything else. This dramatically lowers the cost of doing business internationally, as most European and other nations DO charge for doing business on their soil.

I did say there was a small amount, but the fact is these people deserve a chance at life as much as you or I.


Or, for that matter, as much a chance at life as the millions of Africans who ALSO want to come to America but CAN'T because they can't swim the Atlantic. Same for the Euros who want to emigrate, and the Chinese have the Pacific in their way. If we gave free entry to everyone who "deserves a chance at life", we might as well annex the entire world and make each nation a state.

You're right, 8 to ten million is not a percent ofa percent, it's about 9 percent or so. That does not invalidate the point, however.


It most certainly invalidates your original point, which was that the total number of illegal aliens isn't significant.

Uneducated jobs that pay very little barely cover one person, let alone an entire family.


That all depends on what you're willing to give up. Don't need a car? You save thousands every year not having one. Eat cheap, perhaps by working in food service? More thousands saved. Pack ten people into an apartment meant for four, and you'll be a bit cramped, but still have better living conditions than most places in Mexico. And you'll, again, save thousands of dollars a year in the process.

And so how much money can ten people living together without transport in a tiny apartment send home to their families in Mexico every year? TENS OF THOUSANDS. It all depends on how thrifty they want to be while living here.

I shall offer a solution I think will probably not make everyone happy but will ensure a fair compromise.


Hang on a second. I'm going to head up to British Columbia, skip over the border without notifying anyone, and start making demands of the Canadian system as though I were a citizen. I'll fake ID to do it. I'll go and blow away some caribou with a big honking gun while I'm at it, because I like the meat when cooked over a big Texas-style BBQ pit and slathered in A-1 Sauce.

Would I be breaking a bunch of Canadian laws? You betcha! But as soon as someone complains, I expect to see a British Canadian come along and offer a "compromise" that allows me to break at least some of those laws without fear of fine or imprisonment, much less deportation.

A Low-Income Immigration System. This system would allow Immigrants who have very little money to get a low- or no-interest loan from the United States so long as they submit to extensive identification.


Already available to authentic immigrants, as opposed to border-jumpers.

Does this solve your problem?


Nope. The problem is, we have laws that say if you jump the border, we send you back home when caught. Giving you a cheap loan to STAY here after you've violated the law exacerbates the problems by encouraging more illegal immigration.

P.S. By the way, if 50% of the earners pay 99% of the income tax... Where does the 34% from the top 1% come from? I'm guessing that's a typo.


No, that's actual US Census data. The top one percent of income earners in the US pay more than one third of the total tax burden. The 2% - 50% top earners pay almost all of the remainder. Those with incomes lower than $20,000 often pay little or no tax once their annual refunds are processed.
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Postby Axelgear on Fri Dec 01, 2006 2:24 am

RHJunior wrote:America is the greatest nation on earth because it accomplished in 200 years what every other nation on earth is STILL struggling to accomplish after two MILLENIA.

Don't like us? Resent us? hate us? Too bad we own everything :twisted:



Nnnnno... America was established and ruled by Britain, then along come rebels that made for an unusually easy exchange of power. America became independent, and then from then on, it was on the same or lesser footing as England. It could be said in reverse that Britain GAVE progress to America, and many other nations.

And by the way, a few quick things:

-A CEO, as most do, can have himself declared a company with an income of 1 dollar a year, and have profits of the company redirected to "seperate branches" in places like the Caymans, which they can then remove tax free. Oh, and by the way, a person with half of 100 million daollars ISN'T poor. They're worth as much as my entire city sector and thensome.

-As to everyone wanting a chance, what does that change? Some just got lucky enough to get the chance, just as others got lucky to get born there.

-Believe me buddy, I know such things. But 3 dollars an hour is not that much when it comes down to it. Heck, you can't survive here on 7 Canadian an hour.

-Yes, but you have the ability to enter legally and the means to do so. It's stupid for you to do it. However, if another civil war broke out in America, I'm sure the slowness of the Immigration Process would pop right back into your mind. As to the Caribou hunting and such, if it's hunting season I fail to see the issue. And even if it isn't, Caribou Hunting Rights are augmented so you can hunt year round in most places anyway. Gun laws are good up here, so licensing isn't too hard. If you can afford one or not is another story though... And as for the compromise thing, it depends on what laws you're breaking. Fire-Arms laws, expect an arrest though.

-The Low Income System is NOT available to legal immigrators. You require about 10,000 dollars in the bank to get full immigrant status in the US. AND to top it off, I was stating this be available at the immigration offices. Once you're caught border hopping, you're sent back, not given a second chance.
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Postby RHJunior on Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:59 am

England's contribution to the world was that all the people who were worth spit on a griddle were either <I>thrown</i> out, or <I>got up and left.</i> And then when we got sick of them trying to run things by parcel post, we kicked the last of 'em out and took over for ourselves... and built TWO nations that went from the Oxcart to the supersonic jet in less than two centuries, and eat and crap more than their GNP every day of the week.

And that, my little roundheads, is how America and Australia were born. :twisted:
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