Help stop the invasion

Help stop the invasion

Postby Nick012000 on Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:49 pm

http://www.grassfire.org/

Donate money. Contact your representatives repeatedly. Help stop illegal immigration.

Don't get sidetracked by abortion debates. We need to stand united.
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Postby UncleMonty on Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:58 pm

First thing might be to stop using made-up terms like "illegal immigration".

Immigration is a legal process, so if someone is in a country illegally then he is NOT an immigrant. He's a trespasser, or an invader, but he's no kind of immigrant.
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Postby Nick012000 on Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:06 am

Nevertheless, the term is accepted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration
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Postby Tom Mazanec on Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:57 am

I go straight pro-life. Compared to millions of babies being horribly murdered by their own mothers, all other issues pale.
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Postby TMLutas on Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:30 pm

UncleMonty wrote:First thing might be to stop using made-up terms like "illegal immigration".

Immigration is a legal process, so if someone is in a country illegally then he is NOT an immigrant. He's a trespasser, or an invader, but he's no kind of immigrant.


I'm sorry but illegal immigrant is a term of art. You may not like it but it has a particular meaning. I've known illegal immigrants who were illegals only for the time between they were denied asylum (for religious persecution as it happens) and when their appeal got before a judge. If you toss out the term, what do you call people who are going through the process and start getting deportation orders?
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Postby BrockthePaine on Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:44 pm

TMLutas wrote:
UncleMonty wrote:First thing might be to stop using made-up terms like "illegal immigration".

Immigration is a legal process, so if someone is in a country illegally then he is NOT an immigrant. He's a trespasser, or an invader, but he's no kind of immigrant.


I'm sorry but illegal immigrant is a term of art. You may not like it but it has a particular meaning. I've known illegal immigrants who were illegals only for the time between they were denied asylum (for religious persecution as it happens) and when their appeal got before a judge. If you toss out the term, what do you call people who are going through the process and start getting deportation orders?

Immigrant candidates?
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Postby Siirenias on Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:55 am

Immigration has only one meaning as a legal process. Animals emigrate and immigrate.

Also, you could call illegal immigrants illegal aliens to reduce confusion.

(Oh, and you didn't need to abandon that other thread and make this one. It is considered a high degree of "no-no" and may result in the locking of both threads if a moderator has a bad day.)
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Postby LoneWolf23k on Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:11 pm

I have an innovative idea for resolving Illegal Immigration from Mexico...


...Annex Mexico, and make it the 51st state. Then, all of those people wanting to come into the US to find jobs won't be a matter of immigration, but a simple commute problem.

And we'll be able to easily place American companies there to give the locals their own jobs, and so on...


...Ok, that was just a joke, but I seriously think that what we need to do isn't just keep the Mexicans from coming into the States illegally, but help them boost their economy so the Mexicans will be able to find more high-paying jobs in their own country.
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Postby Axelgear on Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:34 pm

That... Actually makes a lot more sense than building a massive fence. If America annexed Mexico, many of the problems DO dissapear. The minimum wage laws in Mexico, if there are any, are so low that its people enter the poverty cycle. However, were a country like America to annex it, or any Westernized nation really, it would undergo strong reforms that would probably force companies to pay a fair wage or abandon it. That also suddenly means you have a massive new labour force to do uneducated labour such as manufacturing that is normally done in China. A human-rights violater loses business, Mexico gets a better start, and there's a bit of a burst to the economy. Then, once America is out of debt and Mexico reformed, they can start pouring money into its underdeveloped regions, and then repeat the process in Brazil. Free the Favelas!
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Postby UncleMonty on Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:56 pm

LoneWolf23k wrote:I have an innovative idea for resolving Illegal Immigration from Mexico...


...Annex Mexico, and make it the 51st state. Then, all of those people wanting to come into the US to find jobs won't be a matter of immigration, but a simple commute problem.

And we'll be able to easily place American companies there to give the locals their own jobs, and so on...


...Ok, that was just a joke, but I seriously think that what we need to do isn't just keep the Mexicans from coming into the States illegally, but help them boost their economy so the Mexicans will be able to find more high-paying jobs in their own country.


Your suggestion would not help Mexico, but would likely destroy the United States.
Mexico has every material thing a nation needs to prosper, and yet it does not prosper. It is sick with corruption. Making both nations one would be equivalent to connecting the arteries of a fairly healthy man (The US) with those of one racked with self-induced illness (Mexico). The infection would inevitably spread, and the healthy man would sicken along with the patient.
As it stands, the greatest economic asset Mexico currently has is the money sent into Mexico from Mexicans living in the US. In short, The United State's economy is supporting and subsidizing Mexico. President Vicente Fox is currently making deals with individual farmers in my part of the country to try to leverage more illegals into America, which he undoubtably hopes will increase the cash flow into Mexico. The farmers are corrupt enough to go along, seeing the benefit of cheap illegal labor.
Fortunately, the Federal government is opening a new office of Homeland Security nearby, for the explicit purpose of dealing with illegals.
I am definitely rooting for the home team on this one.
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Postby The JAM on Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:08 pm

As a Mexican, I've seen corruption first hand. I'd say, please, by all means, build the fence, post soldiers around the clock, and throw out those who break the law. Maybe when corrupt politicians and magistrates run out of money and start getting pressured by everyone to actually WORK will we then see a turnaround here. For now, I just hope the swearing in of Calderón goes smoothly this December 1.
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Postby Axelgear on Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:44 am

Just a question JAM... Are you first generation in America? Second? Did your parents come over illegally and help raise their family?

And by the way, Mexico has a massive population, with a very small percentage of a percentage of that having moved to the United States. It's amazing that a percentage of a percentage can support almost 108 million people, isn't it? Those dirty Mexicans have gone to America to take all those CEO positions away from decent, hardworking Americans who ferry away their money to the Cayman Islands so they don't have to pay taxes, just like every honest person should do!

Maybe you should think through the logic of something before you say it.
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Postby RHJunior on Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:04 am

Axelgear wrote:Just a question JAM... Are you first generation in America? Second? Did your parents come over illegally and help raise their family?

And by the way, Mexico has a massive population, with a very small percentage of a percentage of that having moved to the United States. It's amazing that a percentage of a percentage can support almost 108 million people, isn't it? Those dirty Mexicans have gone to America to take all those CEO positions away from decent, hardworking Americans who ferry away their money to the Cayman Islands so they don't have to pay taxes, just like every honest person should do!

Maybe you should think through the logic of something before you say it.


Axelgear, do yourself a favor and stop now.

There are an estimated eight to ten MILLION illegals here in the united states. that's not a "small percentage of a percentage."
And can the BS about how they're poor noble suffering saints here to pick our veggies and clean our toilets. They're here <I>illegally.</i> Even the ones that AREN'T smuggling drugs or committing crimes in our streets are violating our immigration laws, our tax laws, our election laws, our import/export laws.... (and whining about how "rich people don't pay taxes" puts you in the zero respect category with me, as I, and anyone who does any research, know better. The top 50% of earners--- that's households making $29,000 a year or more--- pay over 96% of all income tax collected in the USA. The top 1% pay 34% all by themselves! And those that DO use "tax shelters" to protect some of their wealth do it LEGALLY--- Unlike Chico JumpTheFence, who simply doesn't pay taxes at all.)

They are not Saint Paco, patron of ennobled immigrants, they're criminals. What SORT of illegal job they take here makes zero difference.
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Postby Axelgear on Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:39 am

Time to clear up a few things real quick before this goes any further.

1. I was referring not to high earners, I was referring to CEO's. I mean people making tens, if not hundreds, of millions a year. I know your average person doesn't make that much, and even high earners who pay their taxes keep very little, but I also know for a fact that the Cayman Islands has some of the richest banks in the world thanks to the top percent of income earners in the world funneling cash there.

2. Not all Mexicans are saints. I never made that argument. I also never argued that there are no criminals either. I did say there was a small amount, but the fact is these people deserve a chance at life as much as you or I.

3. You're right, 8 to ten million is not a percent ofa percent, it's about 9 percent or so. That does not invalidate the point, however. Uneducated jobs that pay very little barely cover one person, let alone an entire family.

Now onto a few things that could clear this up:

You claim they are breaking the law and not paying taxes, and it's true, they are. The fact is, I do not refute anything you say here. However, I do disagree that they should be forced back. So, in true fashion of a British Canadian, I shall offer a solution I think will probably not make everyone happy but will ensure a fair compromise.

A Low-Income Immigration System. This system would allow Immigrants who have very little money to get a low- or no-interest loan from the United States so long as they submit to extensive identification. To prevent fraud, this money is of course closely guarded. In short, the person needs receipts to prove where their money is going. This way, the people can come to the country legally with a Visa, have enough money to set up a fair (Probably poor quality but at least warm, dry, and solid) home for themselves and, if they have one, their family, and they can earn money at a fair minimum wage and get their kids to public school.

Does this solve your problem? The land of the free once more accepts immigrants fleeing despair and poverty (Pleasing the left), and they pay taxes and return money to the economy (Pleasing the right).

So, what do you think? This way the illegals have an alternative, and you can then, by all rights, send them back to Mexico since they didn't take the proper, legal route to get into America.

P.S. By the way, if 50% of the earners pay 99% of the income tax... Where does the 34% from the top 1% come from? I'm guessing that's a typo.
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Postby Atarlost on Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:37 am

I think it won't work. Getting the government involved in moneylending is a surefire prescription for corruption. The solution is the opposite. End birthright citizenship and end all welfare. Put not a fence but a wall along both borders. Split the border patrol from the INS and put it under the department of war. Strip the INS of civil servicec protections and demand visa and citizenship requests be processed in a reasonable timeframe. Jail time for anyone who knowingly or through negligence hires a noncitizen without a work visa. Perhaps most importantly, end farming susidies. Farm susidies artificially expand the American farming sector at the expense of poorer nations like Mexico. Without the subsidies many low income low skill jobs will move out of the country.
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Postby Deckard Canine on Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:25 am

Axelgear wrote:Just a question JAM... Are you first generation in America? Second? Did your parents come over illegally and help raise their family?


IINM, the J.A.M. still lives in Mexico and is not trying to move to the U.S. legally or illegally.

This is another issue where I've switched sides. I used to be the type who might put a "No Human Being Is Illegal" bumper sticker on my car, but now I think that illegal immigration is little different from butting in line: those caught doing it should be sent to the back of the line.

I imagine that annexing Mexico is very impractical, and you couldn't get the governments to agree on it anyway.
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Postby The JAM on Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:12 am

Thank you, Deckard. Yes, I'm a Mexican, living in Mexico, and working in Mexico. I will only cross the border by either plane, ferry, and only through an official port of entry, and only if I am invited and/or have enough money to enter as a LEGAL tourist, and for the record, I lived for 8 years near the Texas border, ya'll, and I have NEVER crossed the border illegally, and I have no intentions to do so in the near or far future.
I'll say that the US should slap a 50% tax on all money transfers that go out of the country if the sender cannot provide proof of legal residence, and revoke citizenship to anyone born of illegal immigrants since 1990.
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Postby Tom Mazanec on Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:42 am

How about anyone BORN in the nation is a citizen, but tax money transfers out of the country without proof of legal residence at 100% (ie, you're just giving all your money to Uncle Sam)?
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Postby BrockthePaine on Thu Nov 23, 2006 1:04 pm

Axelgear wrote:Does this solve your problem? The land of the free once more accepts immigrants fleeing despair and poverty (Pleasing the left), and they pay taxes and return money to the economy (Pleasing the right).

Except for the fact that it doesn't please the right. Taxes are not the issue. The PROBLEM is that we have (possibly) ten million illegal immigrants in the country, who have entered already defying our rule of law. We have an immigration system for a reason: to sort out people who would make good Americans, and to keep out people who would not make good Americans. Statistically, illegal immigrants (from whatever their country) are more likely to become involved in other crimes as well, from robbery and drugs to rape and murder.

I think very few people in the US oppose the immigrants themselves, but rather their methods. The immigration process in the US is meant to accelerate their Americanization: to make them good citizens. Illegal immigration runs around that protective barrier we have set up in our own defense. Imagine, if you will, that the nation is a human body, and the immigrants are like nutrients joining that body. Now, those immigrants add worth to the body; but with illegal immigration, it is like the body has become infested with ticks. Would it not be wise to remove those ticks, and prevent any more from latching on? Many of the illegal immigrants are people we would turn down in the legal application process; why should we then allow them to remain here if they come here illegally? There's an old saying: "The shepherd enters through the gate while the thief comes over the fence." Is it therefore any wonder that we should treat illegal aliens with suspicion?

Personally, I happen to think the US should enforce the same immigration codes as Mexico does. Most of our current illegals seem to be coming from that direction, so why not level the playing field for them?
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Postby Wanderwolf on Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:13 pm

BrockthePaine wrote:We have an immigration system for a reason: to sort out people who would make good Americans, and to keep out people who would not make good Americans. Statistically, illegal immigrants (from whatever their country) are more likely to become involved in other crimes as well, from robbery and drugs to rape and murder.


Second claim first: According to Richard Ward, Dean and Director of the Center of Criminal Justice at Sam Houston State, in his paper, The Internationalization of Criminal Justice, the statistics indicate that immigrants, legal and illegal, have only a minority criminal population, the same as any other group of humans. Of the noncitizens arested, most were involved in (up to 1996, the last year with available statistics) drug crime, crime of order, and "other". Please check your sources.

First claim second: The immigration system is set up for nothing of the kind. The standards used are:

Are you sick?
Are you of value to us?

Those of value to the United States include skilled workers, refugees from persecution (it's our tradition, y'know), individuals with valuable information, and similar. Unskilled labor would fall under the Guest Worker Porgram, which allows you to come here for six years... and then be sent back. (It has no path to the Green Card. Worse, it will scare away any illegal immigrant with half a brain; it would make them legal, but only if they pay a $3,250.00 fine, pay all their back taxes, learn English, and pass a background check. The last two, fine, but who wants to pay that much?)

Don't set up the immigration service as an American shibboleth; it's a job interview, and little more.

Yours truly,

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