Help fight the illegal immigration

[Axelgear]

He also took most of that, which has been nicely debated until now, out of context. I'll just leave this post and come back to it later, but I am wondering if I should bother dancing around some subjects or not...

[TMLutas]

Irrelevant.

So, essentially, you don't want to take responsibility for the bad situation we, as americans, have had a hand in creating all over the world?

I know illegal aliens. Many of them come, work up a stake that they couldn't back home and go back home voluntarily with their 50 or 100 thousand and become small business owners in Romania. They couldn't do this back home because in 1944 an old, sick FDR decided to draw a line at Yalta and things went to hell because of it. And that line had to get drawn, in part, because americans couldn't be bothered to forge a just peace after WW I and withdrew from the world after we were finished "over there" leaving Romania (our WW I ally) to choose which malevolent great power it was going to be prison bitch to this month.

But no, all you care about is that the backsplash doesn't inconvenience you. News flash, national sovereignty is an invention of the Peace of Westphalia so the entire framework that you're offended about only has a history of less than 500 years but the christianity that you proclaim throughout your artistic work long predates that and *comes to different answers* than are derived from the geopolitical theories that settled the 30 Years War.

Mexico is a special case as they have land claims against the US and a growing irredentist movement. But immigration is not something that is isolated from the rest of our foreign policy. We need to fix it all.

[TMLutas]

Uh huh... You're not within your rights to shoot at all unless they are an immediate threat to your personal safety (I.E. Brandishing a weapon and threatening to kill you). You're not a member of the Armed Forces, you're not a Police Officer, and you have recieved no governmental order to shoot on sight. If you shoot them, you will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

You should be aware that different jurisdictions have different laws regarding home-invasion. In some jurisdictions, you are correct. In some jurisdictions RH is correct. And in some jurisdictions, following either of your advice will land someone so imprudent as to follow it in jail (the UK comes to mind).

IANAL but then again, neither are you.

[Jwrebholz]

I was adopted, AND I grew up in the California group home system after my adoptive parents divorced. I had a rotten childhood, filled with beatings and mental anguish and even rape.

And guess what? I'm glad I'm HERE to remember these things that happened to me. I'm glad to be ALIVE. That wouldn't be the case if my parents had "taken pity on me" and had an abortion.

I guess I was one of the lucky ones. I was adopted while still a newborn, to two good and loving parents. Or maybe PA's adoption centers work better than California's.

My father's grandparents came over from Germany in the 1890s (the exact year escapes me at the moment). They did so legally. They learned English, they worked, they contributed to society and as a result they raised a good family. If they were willing to make the effort, so should anyone else.

[RHJunior]

Each man, each nation, is responsible for itself.

If we choose to aid, or choose not to, in the end it is THEY who are responsible for what they do with themselves.

The unwillingness to face the consequences of THEIR OWN ACTIONS, DONE TO THEMSELVES, is the point of it all.
It was the Germans, not the Americans, who chose for them to follow the swastika.
It was the Russians, not the Americans, who made the choice to worship at the altar of the hammer and sickle.
It was the Arabs, not the Americans, who chose-- and still choose--- to fall to their knees before a bloody, genocidal heathen god and his murderous pedophilic prophet, and who chose-- and still choose-- to blame all their misery and suffering on raving moonbat conspiracies between "the Great Satan" and "the Swine Jew," instead of admitting that they have done it to themselves.

It is the Mexicans, not the Americans, who have chosen a corrupt government for Mexico, and have chosen it over and over again.

We are not to blame for the miserable decisions of criminals and fools. If we deign to aid them, it is out of charity, not obligation. They would be very very wise to remember that.

But if those criminals and fools try to exploit us, or to violate our laws, or attack us, then God have mercy on their souls for we shall surely not.

[Axelgear]

Soooo... Lemme get this straight... People in places like Russia that were put into pogroms were responsible for that? The Tutsi's in Rwanda were responsible for being massacred? Oh! How about those schoolkids that were chained up then shot?

The fact is, people are not entirely responsible for their own destiny; others play a part in it. If you were responsible for your own destiny, RH, would you need people to buy your comics? To buy pictures for the front pane? You ENTIRELY depend on others, as does everyone in society. It is enitrely within the rights of farmers to keep all their food to themselves and charge exorbinant prices for it, but they don't because they rely on others and others rely on them in turn. The fact is, RH, we all depend on each other.

While independence must be shown, you cannot condemn others like the Mexicans and the people who immigrated from impoverished nations, not limited to but including Germany, to America and then return to make a better life for themselves and others. The fact is, not every German was a Nazi, and not every Russian was a Communist. They were just doing what was necessary to survive (As the Nazi Party provided tens of millions of jobs to people, letting them actually eat, as well as the fact that, despite their willingness to become racists, they were not aware of the true going-ons. Despite what is widely discussed, the "Final Solution" was kept very secretive and hush hush.. The Communists, meanwhile, got into power via revolution, not voting. I don't think you get to decide dictators), and I'm betting if push came to shove, people wouldn't do much different today (As is proven consistently in nations around the world).

And finally, I give you words that should mean a lot to you:

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." (Matthew 5:38-42, NIV)

Or, essentially stating the same thing but more directly relevant...

"Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." (Luke 6:28-31. King James Version)

Do not hate Mexicans for being forced to take actions that are illegal (As most are victimless crimes, though not all are), but try to find a way to assist them so that they no longer need to take such actions. No nation or people get a relable, competent infrastructure on their own. Even America, the land you espouse as a sign of independance, required help from France, Germany, and Holland to win. Americans would do well to remember this was charity, not an obligation, now wouldn't they? America has a place in the world as the Guardian of Peace and Harmony, but one cannot take such a mantle without expecting to have to help others .

Independence is not what we are. We are Human. And Humans require others to have progress.

[BrockthePaine]

Do not hate Mexicans for being forced to take actions that are illegal

I have a very serious problem with this statement. You always, always, always have a choice between doing what is right and what is wrong. And when you do what is WRONG, you must face the consequences of that. What these immigration people today are doing is trying to remove the consequences from their actions.

This is, at its heart, the sole motivator of the Liberal creed: "I shall do what I want and I won't take the consequences."

[Axelgear]

Saying that is like saying the heart of the Right is "I shall enforce my will upon others." It's just not true.

You have a choice between legality and illegality, but for these people, life and death, hunger and contentment... These are not always on the right side of the law. The law is not always just.

[NydaLynn]

I know I have no place in this discussion really, seeing how I live in Canada an' all, [...]

Oh. Everything makes alot more sense now.

[Axelgear]

I am opening a Pandora's Box here but...

What do you mean by that, pray tell?

[TMLutas]

Each man, each nation, is responsible for itself.

If we choose to aid, or choose not to, in the end it is THEY who are responsible for what they do with themselves.

The unwillingness to face the consequences of THEIR OWN ACTIONS, DONE TO THEMSELVES, is the point of it all.
It was the Germans, not the Americans, who chose for them to follow the swastika.
It was the Russians, not the Americans, who made the choice to worship at the altar of the hammer and sickle.
It was the Arabs, not the Americans, who chose-- and still choose--- to fall to their knees before a bloody, genocidal heathen god and his murderous pedophilic prophet, and who chose-- and still choose-- to blame all their misery and suffering on raving moonbat conspiracies between "the Great Satan" and "the Swine Jew," instead of admitting that they have done it to themselves.

It is the Mexicans, not the Americans, who have chosen a corrupt government for Mexico, and have chosen it over and over again.

We are not to blame for the miserable decisions of criminals and fools. If we deign to aid them, it is out of charity, not obligation. They would be very very wise to remember that.

But if those criminals and fools try to exploit us, or to violate our laws, or attack us, then God have mercy on their souls for we shall surely not.

If I were to raise a company of mercenaries to assassinate Nicolae Ceausescu in 1980, the FBI would have paid me a visit and stopped me. As a precocious 12 year old, they'd probably go light but I'd have done time in juvie.

Would the FBI's action have been moral in your opinion?

[TMLutas]

Do not hate Mexicans for being forced to take actions that are illegal

I have a very serious problem with this statement. You always, always, always have a choice between doing what is right and what is wrong. And when you do what is WRONG, you must face the consequences of that. What these immigration people today are doing is trying to remove the consequences from their actions.

This is, at its heart, the sole motivator of the Liberal creed: "I shall do what I want and I won't take the consequences."

I challenge anybody to successfully defend the proposition that what is illegal is wrong without qualification. You can't do it, christian, jew, muslim, buddhist, even atheist all have their justifications for breaking the law.

[NydaLynn]

I am opening a Pandora's Box here but...

What do you mean by that, pray tell?

Basicly, that I should take anything you say with a nice salt-lick side. I wrote more, but decided to close Pandora's Box, unless you would actually like a peek.

[BrockthePaine]

Do not hate Mexicans for being forced to take actions that are illegal

I have a very serious problem with this statement. You always, always, always have a choice between doing what is right and what is wrong. And when you do what is WRONG, you must face the consequences of that. What these immigration people today are doing is trying to remove the consequences from their actions.

This is, at its heart, the sole motivator of the Liberal creed: "I shall do what I want and I won't take the consequences."

I challenge anybody to successfully defend the proposition that what is illegal is wrong without qualification. You can't do it, christian, jew, muslim, buddhist, even atheist all have their justifications for breaking the law.

I specifically did not say Legal and Illegal for just that reason. I said RIGHT and WRONG. There are certainly laws which I might be willing to break if they were unjust - for instance, I would break any law which mandated me to do something against my personal beliefs, or prohibited me from doing something which is part of my beliefs. But in choosing between right and wrong, I know that if I choose to do wrong, then I would bear the consequences of that.

[BoKiana]

He also took most of that, which has been nicely debated until now, out of context. I'll just leave this post and come back to it later, but I am wondering if I should bother dancing around some subjects or not...

From what I can see, he didn't take them out of context. If you would, please kindly point out how things were out of context, and explain your side of the debate to clear them up?

[Axelgear]

Read through the original post and you'll find out. I'm beginning to think that it's a bit of a lost cause debating with him because we're obviously entrenched in our beliefs and nothing can change it. Why cause more conflict than is necessary? If he or you want to talk with me further, PM me and we can talk this out.

[Ringcaat]

It's been saddening to learn, over the last few weeks, what an angry man RH is.

Come on, folks. Please stop arguing about hot-button issues on this forum that have nothing to do with his comics. There are plenty of other places on the internet where you can argue to your hearts' content without forcing RH to defend his positions and making him even angrier.

When I frequented this forum for a couple of weeks, a year or two ago, I thought you were all really cool here.

[Axelgear]

I'll agree to that. Maybe we should work out some sub-forum guidelines to avoid this?

[Tom Mazanec]

Me too. Although these debates are interesting, they are not what I come to the forum to read about. I come here to read about TotQ.

[BoKiana]

Read through the original post and you'll find out.

I have, several times. And I can't see what is being taken out of context.

I'm beginning to think that it's a bit of a lost cause debating with him because we're obviously entrenched in our beliefs and nothing can change it. Why cause more conflict than is necessary?

Then that is where you are seeing things in the wrong light. Nobody, in any political debate on a forum, or even in real life, will change their minds just like *that* from your post, my post or anyones, even when hard core proof or examples are laid on the table. Don't believe me? Google the name "Flat Earth Society" and find their main forum. There, they discuss all the reasons, hows, whys and wheres that the governments of the Earth have withheld the secret that the Earth is and has always been flat, and the reasons, hows whys and wheres of the lies for keeping us thinking tha t the Earth is a globe. Go there and try to tell them differently. You'll get nowhere, fast. They will counter-site all kinds of things to prove their point, and numerous people have made threads trying to show them what is what.

My point isn't to change someone's mind through a post. The point is to learn where someone stands, and maybe make you think about one side or the other, through reasonable discussions. The problem is that many, if not most times the discussion turns into "Your side sucks, this is true! No it's not, mine is true, you're just filled with hate!" This is why I asked Calbeck to calm down a bit and said I would too. Because things were quickly devolving into that state.

I would like to continue this discussion, out in the open so everyone will know where you and I stand on things, and to keep it on the level. If this thread it too far out of subject for Mr Hayes, he can say so and lock the thread and ask for such a thread to not be posted in the ToTQ Forum. Subjects like these are frequently posted in the Nip&Tuck forum, and almost as much in the Goblin Hollow forum without major problems.

Unless Mr Hayes says otherwise, I would assume discussions would be allowed; he has said things in the past and locked out of control threads, and I'm sure he will continue to do so. I don't believe new sub-rules need to be made, as I've only seen Mr Hayes get angry over things or people that go beyond reason. However it is his forum, and if he says so, then I will do so.