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Does Quentyn have any moral flaws?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:49 am
by Tom Mazanec
I don't mean foibles which come from his lack of maturity. But I mean actual ethical failings, or at least struggles with temptation. I can't think of any off the top of my head.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:42 am
by Deckard Canine
There was the time he forced a kiss on Miss Mayberry right before leaving. I got pretty sore at him for that, tho I recognized his imminent extended absence (with a fair chance of never returning) as a mitigating factor. The onlooking males approved, but Miss Mayberry herself seemed not to welcome it. Even if she did, it was a crude move on his part.

He also did some shady things while trying to get his sword back: theft, deception, assaulting an officer of the law, declining to turn the other cheek...

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:28 am
by Tom Mazanec
Good points. Come to think of it, he also committed mega-vandalism, literally collapsing a building (a rickety building, but still...). Thank you for reminding me of those.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:00 am
by The JAM
I don't know if this is from a lack of volunteers (or very non-attractive volunteers that he met in the Tumbledowns) or low self-esteem or just being totally turned off by the thought of it, but I find it commendable that he's not actively trying to disperse his DNA. Other than that, any serious moral flaws aren't very discernible.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:34 am
by Tom Mazanec
Maybe he disperses his DNA in the chamber pot. Of course, Ralph could not show us that, even in the unlikely event that Quentyn did so.

Re: Does Quentyn have any moral flaws?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:17 am
by Kchishol1970
Tom Mazanec wrote:I don't mean foibles which come from his lack of maturity. But I mean actual ethical failings, or at least struggles with temptation. I can't think of any off the top of my head.


Well, I thought he was out of line assaulting the doctor about his bad parenting advice.

That was clearly a self-righteous over reaction.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:43 am
by Deckard Canine
Tom Mazanec wrote:he also committed mega-vandalism, literally collapsing a building (a rickety building, but still...).


I wonder if he knew or figured that the building was condemned. Is it technically illegal for a nonprofessional to level a condemned building? It doesn't seem particularly immoral aside from the resulting injuries.

I also wonder what will happen with many of those gang members after their release. Probably most will seek a new hideout and go back to what they were doing before. Tho they might form different gangs this time.

The JAM wrote:I don't know if this is from a lack of volunteers (or very non-attractive volunteers that he met in the Tumbledowns) or low self-esteem or just being totally turned off by the thought of it, but I find it commendable that he's not actively trying to disperse his DNA.


He seems basically set on one particular woman, but he doesn't know how to win her over. I suppose you might commend him for not looking for other DNA outlets in the meantime, but to me that's just decency -- not the kind of thing I'd go out of my way to commend, any more than I'd commend him for not playing pranks during those dull periods between quests.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:45 am
by Tom Mazanec
He didn't exactly "assault" the doctor, although he could have phrased his criticism a bit more diplomatically.
I used to think his getting drunk was a character flaw, but it turned out that, like Noah, he did not know the strength of what he was drinking.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:25 pm
by Deckard Canine
Tom Mazanec wrote:He didn't exactly "assault" the doctor, although he could have phrased his criticism a bit more diplomatically.


Sure looked to me like he was chasing the doctor and hitting him with a crutch. Or at least he threatened to do the latter. Unfortunately, I don't feel like taking the time to look it up again.

like Noah, he did not know the strength of what he was drinking.


I'd overlooked that Genesis detail. It would explain how Noah, the worthiest man to be spared, got so slovenly.

Re: Does Quentyn have any moral flaws?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:34 pm
by Capnregex
kchishol1970 wrote:Well, I thought he was out of line assaulting the doctor about his bad parenting advice.

That was clearly a self-righteous over reaction.


What of Christ clearing the temple of the moneychangers?
If I recall, Christ used similar methods in that example.

We tend to remember Christ as being peaceful.
We forget that he also has a temper.
It's more a matter of how he chooses to employ it.

I don't accept having a temper as a moral flaw.
Being controlled by one's temper on the other hand.

If we view a moral flaw as something that we allow to controll us, rather than being in controll of it, I think the closest thing I can think of is his link to Wildcard. Even there he has demonstrated a good deal of temperance. After all, with Wildcard, and the lux burst he made, he could have just left all the gangsters dead.

The leader was lucky to get out of the deal with only a broken nose.. Had Questor had Enders mindset, he would have been dead.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:03 pm
by BlackWingReg
I think something that's important to remember in this discussion is the fact that Quentyn was called, by an agent of God, to be a Questor.

He's not Joe Raccoonan off the street - certainly he seems to be, but it's clear that he's destined for bigger things than it may at first appear. The fact that he's managed to hang onto his humility and sense of wonder despite all of this speaks strongly for his basic character.

It is that basic core of rightness, deep down inside him, that brought him to where he is. Certainly, he's not perfect - no mortal is. But he's better than most, and he's chosen to dedicate himself to the service of others, and for very little reward to himself.

As for his love life? He's got a girl he likes... but I suspect that somewhere down the line, a few years from now, one heck of a powerful Lux User is going to come looking for him, and give him something of a suprise. Sure, she's got a bit of growing up to do, but so does Quentyn.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:37 pm
by RHJunior
Personally I find it extraordinary that people have gotten so Humor Impaired and Politically sphincter-clenched that <I>stealing a kiss</i> rates as high as <I>assault or rape.</i>

I note that the expanding sexual license in our society has been matched, step for step, by a sort of hysterical prudery <I>from the exact same people that advocated the licentiousness.</i> Once, sex was restricted to husband and wife, and flirting or stealing a kiss was looked on with amused benevolence. Now everyone can bang each other stupid, yet saying any one of twenty key phrases in the wrong context--- like, ANYWHERE--- can get you accused of sexual harassment. Mooning after a girl is now called "stalking." Schools are filled with little boys afraid to even be on the same side of the playground as the little girls because the principal handed out a sexual harassment code that could get them sent to the principal's office for looking at a little girl crosseyed.....and a little first grade boy giving a little girl a kiss <I>that she instigated</i> is grounds for expelling him.

Huzzah for the sexual revolution. In a few years we might finish burying all the casualties.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:43 am
by Wanderwolf
RHJunior wrote:Personally I find it extraordinary that people have gotten so Humor Impaired and Politically sphincter-clenched that <I>stealing a kiss</i> rates as high as <I>assault or rape.</i>


You're the first person to mention rape, Ralph, and I presume YOU don't think it equivalent. Over-react much lately?

"Assault" it was, by the strict definition; he grabbed the woman and forced a kiss. That is, according to the letter of the law, "assault". According to the spirit of both Law and Intent, however, I don't think she's going to charge him, hm?

Alas, the Kissing Bandit shall never be met with again...

Now, if you're quite done fashioning your hyperbolic narrative, Ralph?

Yours truly,

The wolfish,

Wanderer

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:27 am
by Deckard Canine
If a woman I was not involved with, even one I had a crush on, ran over to give me a big, unexpected kiss in public and then left without a word before or after, with other people going, "Hoo yeah, that's the way to do it!", I would be mortified. At best, it's low on tact.

EDIT: Just so you know, I do think that Quentyn is above average in morality, compared to both his world and ours.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:26 pm
by Luna_Northcat
Hmm, yeah, I'm with Deckard straight the way through on this one. And Wanderwulf. (A cat agreeing with two canines -- what next?)

The forced kiss was crass, but it wasn't rape. It wasn't anywhere near rape.

I don't actually consider his temper that much of a flaw, most of the time. Truth is, if you're going to stand up for what you believe in and not be a doormat all your life, then you actually need a bit of a temper. Getting angry is useful at times.

I don't think Quentyn is a saint or anything, but his failings are small failings; at heart, he's just a really good kid.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:38 pm
by The JAM
Well, that's two felines agreeing with two canines, so that even things up. :-D

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:41 pm
by RHJunior
And the committee got themselves a vote, and the bill was ratified,
A dog's tail would be called a leg, so now the dog had five...

Rubbish.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:21 am
by Wanderwolf
RHJunior wrote:And the committee got themselves a vote, and the bill was ratified,
A dog's tail would be called a leg, so now the dog had five...

Rubbish.


You're so busy being mad, Ralph, that you're imagining at least half of what you're mad about.

1. You're the only person to use the word "rape" in this thread to describe the attitude about Quentyn's stolen kiss. Unless you, the author, believe it is equivalent, then no, nobody thinks Quentyn's stolen kiss was equivalent to rape.

2. As stated, is was technically assault; she didn't ask for a kiss, he didn't ask to give her a kiss. He grabbed her around the waist and forced a kiss in true "romance novel cover pic" style. That is an assault. Heck, technically yelling at someone is assault; scaring someone is assault; insulting someone, even in jest, is assault. Assault is defined as:

"a sudden, violent attack; onslaught" (Random House Unabridged Dictionary, definition 1.)

It comes from the word saltus, meaning to leap. (As in the Spanish word salta, meaning "jump".)

Given she didn't scream, however, or apparently take offense, she seems willing to overlook the impropriety.

So no, before you leap upon the soapbox and declaim otherwise: We are not calling Quentyn a rapist, a sex fiend, a sex maniac, a swinger, or any other such term. He did something rash and impulsive; it was technically an assault; and that was the end of it.

That's it. Nothing more. So please stop being offended by our inoffensiveness, and begin reading what we actually write, okay?

Yours truly,

The exasperated,

Wanderer