Nov 8

Postby The JAM on Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:40 pm

Shaul of Tarshish wrote:But what says it? The Word is near thee, even in your mouth, and in your heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; that if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in your heart that God hath raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.

Shaul of Tarshish wrote:And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father
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Postby TMLutas on Sat Nov 11, 2006 8:48 pm

The JAM wrote:
Catherine_Puce wrote:You will only have to bear odd stare by demonstrate your faith.


That's true, for now. But the bottom line is that the world, as a whole, is starting to hate Christians more and more.

I'll say this again: eventually, Christians, even those in the US, are going to have to bear quite a bit more than just an odd stare. It might mean losing your job (I lost a job once for disagreeing with faith matters with my boss, who was a Buddhist), failing school (some of the kids of our church have been given failing grades for refusing to participate in the Halloween/Day of the Dead celebrations that public schools hold, under the pretext of "not upholding our national traditions"), being denied running water (as it's happening in Chiapas and Oaxaca because they don't worship the virgin Mary (sorry, Tom, that's what's happening there)), or when push comes to shove, well, read Matthew 24.


I do not presume to deny what you claim is happening in Chiapas and Oaxaca. I find it fantastic but not having personal knowledge I will limit myself to the following observations.

1. Mary worship is a heresy in the Catholic Church and the Church has set up tribunals to handle this as well as any other heresy that may crop up from time to time. Non-Catholics have access to these ecclesial courts in a circumstance such as you describe. Such people would be excommunicated for Mary worship until they repent and reconcile.

2. Denying water in order to force conversions is strictly forbidden and a mortal sin. The same court procedures are available. Nobody in Rome throws away appeals unread.

3. Mary worship is a very common false accusation that protestants level against Catholics. It is not something that one should toss around lightly as it has been a marker for some very ugly bigotry over the years. There is a difference between requesting intercessory prayer of the spirits of holy dead and worshipping those dead. While Catholics can fall into the error of the latter, more commonly outsiders misinterpret the former as the latter. If you don't have a problem asking someone else to pray for you, the only difference between you and Catholic belief might be a difference of opinion on whether departed souls currently have volition, ie whether the dead themselves can pray. Catholics believe that they can, many (but not all) protestants do not.

4. Just because a Church is right about Jesus does not mean all its members are saints. Were they, there would be no other churches.
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Postby TMLutas on Sat Nov 11, 2006 8:55 pm

MikeVanPelt wrote:
Tom Mazanec wrote:Catholics do not worship Mary. We adore her.


That's the actual doctrine of the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, some Catholics, in violation or ignorance of that doctrine, go ... somewhat further than that.

A few years ago, there was apparantly some agitation within the Catholic Church to declare Mary to be a fourth person of the Trinity. (Then again, maybe the people reporting this got it wrong.) An active SF fan who is also a Catholic priest was on a panel at Baycon and was asked about this; he said it was wrong and would never go anywhere. Then another panelist said that there were some fairly prominent Catholics who were in favor of this, what would he do if the Pope was able to get all the Cardinals to go along with it and declared it ex cathedra?

He didn't have an answer, but he clearly found the scenario horrifying.


The ultimate firewall against such apostasies consists of the living stones of the Church, the body of believers. We've gotten back to that firewall in the past. I'm most familiar with the case of Arianism which utterly dominated the clergy for several decades but the laity would not stand for it and eventually trinitarianism won the day.

You may also consider the historical incidence of anti-popes as another solution.
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Postby RHJunior on Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:15 am

Romans 10:9-10, 13

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
"For whosoever shall <I>call upon the name of the Lord</i> shall be saved."

There are multiple other verses in the book of Romans that could be applied.
"What was that popping noise ?"
"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
--Dilbert
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Postby The JAM on Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:46 pm

[...unWARP!!!]

Good evening.

Dictionary.com wrote:wor‧ship
verb, -shiped, -ship‧ing or (especially British) -shipped, -ship‧ping.
–noun
1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
2. formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.
3. adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.
4. the object of adoring reverence or regard.
5. (initial capital letter) British. a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually prec. by Your, His, or Her).
–verb (used with object)
6. to render religious reverence and homage to.
7. to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).
–verb (used without object)
8. to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity.
9. to attend services of divine worship.
10. to feel an adoring reverence or regard.
[Origin: bef. 900; (n.) ME wors(c)hipe, worthssipe, OE worthscipe, var. of weorthscipe; see worth, -ship; (v.) ME, deriv. of the n.]

a‧dore
–verb (used with object)
1. to regard with the utmost esteem, love, and respect; honor.
2. to pay divine honor to; worship: to adore God.
3. to like or admire very much: I simply adore the way your hair is done!
–verb (used without object)
4. to worship.
[Origin: 1275–1325; < L adōrāre to speak to, pray, worship, equiv. to ad- ad- + ōrāre to speak, beg (see oral); r. ME aour(i)e < OF aourer < L]


Now, guess what's the Spanish word for "worship".


¡Zacatepóngolas!

Until next time, remember:

I

AM

THE

J.A.M. (a.k.a. Numbuh i: "Just because I'm imaginary doesn't mean I don't exist")

Good evening.

[WARP!!!]
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Postby TMLutas on Sun Nov 12, 2006 8:01 pm

The JAM wrote:
Now, guess what's the Spanish word for "worship".


I guarantee you that the distinction is made both in the national episcopal conference and at the Vatican which reviews such local conferences to make sure they don't run off the rails. The US is right in the middle of a process of correcting previous inadequate english translations of certain liturgical texts so I hear about this stuff as a practical matter. Something as simple as conflating Marian adoration with Marian worship has happened in the past. They pass the eventual "slapdown" notices around worldwide but they don't make a big fuss about them so you have to know where to look. This habit is an application of avoiding scandal and allows a lot of people to go through their spiritual lives untroubled by what some yahoos are doing halfway around the world.

I hope that you agree that a local segment of a 1B plus member Church that might be behaving against the Church's own rules shouldn't poison your opinion towards the larger body so long as those rules do eventually get enforced and the deviation gets corrected.

Rome has to balance between efficiently protecting the authoritative rules of the Church by issuing orders from the center and promoting subsidiarity and collegiality. It's not a very easy thing to manage.
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