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Kerry Skydancer wrote:Sounds like a plan, Rokas. You need any help on that plot, let us know. (Well, maybe not Wanderwulf... )

Can I help?

Rokas wrote:

BrockthePaine wrote:American kids these days are all about firing as many rounds as possible in the shortest space of time possible. They're all about MAC10s and Uzis and AR15s and Glocks. Only the old-timers seem to realize the beauty of a FAL or Springfield '03 or a .357 revolver...

Or a Barrett .50BMG M82A1...

Ahhh @#$#$ Brock....ya beat me to it!!

And Rokas is absolutlely right..."spray & pray" theory....throw a bunch of lead out there and somebody's bound to run into one of them. One of the primary reasons most gangbanger shootouts have more collateral damage than participant casualties. That and the fact that this gutter sludge has no more respect for human life than Hezbolla does.

S'aaruuk

"Volume of fire" is also an accepted U.S. military principle these days, introduced no later than the assault rifle. (Although it could be said to have it's origins with massed gunfire as far back as the musket. It's just that the assault rifle made it possible to apply the principle to individuals.)

This idea is also mentioned in the movie version of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, when Sean Connery's "Allan Quatermain" commented on the methods "Tom Sawyer" used in combat.

Allan Quatermain wrote:Oh, I saw... Very American. Fire enough bullets and hope to hit the target.

Earl McClaw wrote:This idea is also mentioned in the movie version of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, when Sean Connery's "Allan Quatermain" commented on the methods "Tom Sawyer" used in combat.

Allan Quatermain wrote:Oh, I saw... Very American. Fire enough bullets and hope to hit the target.

On one hand, I was kinda offended when I saw that line in the movie, but it's definately true. It's why I prefer teaching new shooters on bolt-action rifles. Gives them a space to pause and reflect...

How did this thread get to be about guns so quickly? ...oh yeah, I started it. :whistles innocently: I was just interviewing for the position of Rokas's Minister of War.

I remember going to a black baptist church once, and was utterly shocked at the ... well... EMOTIONAL display in the service. Both my family, and later the Jesuits who taught me, worshiped in a way that made you wonder if they had sticks jammed up their @$$es. Displaying emotion of any type was considered a shocking breach of manners, and the demonstrative, openly passionate service in the black baptist church stunned me

That's really more cultural and doctrinal, though -- my father was a minister and he travelled a lot, so I got to go to churches that were largely white, and churches that were largely black. I never noticed a difference, because they were all Pentecostal churches, believing in the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Now most black churches of any denomination have a spiritual tradition rooted in the south, where pentecostal/charismatic doctrines are very strong.

When you see people up and shouting and being passionate during church services, that's an echo of Asuza Street and the Upper Room, not Africa. You put black people in Catholic churches, or you put them in Anglican churches, and they're quiet, because that's the way it's done in those denominations. I mean, can you picture a Catholic priest giving his homily and someone jumps and shouts "WELL GLORY JESUS!" in the middle of it and the priest stops and points at him and says "AMEN BROTHER, FEEL THE SPIRIT IN THIS HOUSE OF GOD THIS MORNING!"

What I find especially sad is those people who attack Bill Cosby instead of refuting his argument.

But... but he was -blaming- people for doing bad things! And everyone -knows- it's only rich white males who cause problems by being, y'know, rich and white and male and stuff... so he -must- be one of -them-! So that makes him eeeevil!



The Left thinks the Right is evil. The Right thinks the Left is -stupid-.

The Right has a lot more evidence.

Skydancer

Kerry Skydancer wrote:The Left thinks the Right is evil. The Right thinks the Left is -stupid-.

The Right has a lot more evidence.

Skydancer

OOOOooooo.....WELL SAID friend bat....WELL said!!

And you're right on the money why Cosby got pilloried for his words. He espoused personal responsibility for a great majority of the problems a lot of blacks face today........and talk like that is strictly verboten on the Great Liberal Plantation.

S'aaruuk

I remember having a "discussion" with just such an individual which ended when I said:

"YOUR ancestors were slaves for ninety years. MY ancestors were slaves for SIX HUNDRED years. WE got over it."

Woulda LOVED to have seen the look on his face when you said that.

Slightly OT here, but now that the "cease fire" is in effect.....anyone wanna speculate, or place a bet for that matter how long it's gonna be before:

(A) Something goes "BOOM" in Lebanon and Hezbollah screams that lsrael has violated the cease fire, or

(B) Something goes "BOOM" in Israel and Hezbollah screams that Israel is trying to frame them.

I'm giving it at best 2 weeks.....any takers?

I could be dead wrong here, but I just have a feeling......

S'aaruuk

Sharuuk wrote:(A) Something goes "BOOM" in Lebanon and Hezbollah screams that lsrael has violated the cease fire, or

(B) Something goes "BOOM" in Israel and Hezbollah screams that Israel is trying to frame them.

10 rockets have already been fired by forces in Lebanon (not confirmed as Hezzies) during the ceasefire. They didn't hit Israel, but the mere fact that they were fired doesn't bode well for this momentary peace. Hezzies have also been seen trucking troops and weapons to southern Lebanon mixed in with refugees. Israel forces have been ordered not to engage these obvious targets. 2 Fox News reporters were kidnapped by forces in Lebanon in plain view of military forces. The forces, under orders not to open fire unless threatened, did nothing. Israeli forces have killed 3 (number may have changed) Hezzies who "acted threateningly" towards them since the ceasefire.

BrockthePaine wrote:American kids these days are all about firing as many rounds as possible in the shortest space of time possible. They're all about MAC10s and Uzis and AR15s and Glocks. Only the old-timers seem to realize the beauty of a FAL or Springfield '03 or a .357 revolver...

A bit of a correction. A "Uzi" carbine is cheap and available (most that you see/find are probably gonna be copies). A Glock is cheap and available. MAC10, I couldn't say either way. For the cost of a Bushy AR15, you could've bought two Glocks (I could build one for little more than a Glock, but I doubt these people have anything resembling gunsmithing skills); they are not cheap, but they are available. A WASR10 AK is cheap and available.

Rifles, in general, don't see much use in crime by urban minorities due to their size. Hard to make off with your bit of poundcake with a 3 foot long hunk of steel in your hand. C&R rifles don't see much use due to the obscure calibers (real easy to find .303 Brit or 8mm in the ghetto, neh chummer?) and the fact that these rifles sometimes need some TLC before they're good to go (boo Cosmoline, hooray beer!). They're also often larger/heavier than newer weapons (wood stock heavier than synthetic, recent trends towards shorter barrels).

According to an FBI study (can dig it up if necessary), the two primary considerations in why a criminal chose the weapon they did were cost and availability. Secondary considerations were personal taste and popularity (rap songs about "cappin" people with your "Glock fo-tay," anyone?).

They are not seeking weapons that will specifically enable them to put as many bullets in the air as possible. They do this by mere expedient of not having trained sufficiently with their weapon.

Edit: Spelling.

Kerry Skydancer wrote:The Left thinks the Right is evil. The Right thinks the Left is -stupid-.

Technically, vice versa is also true, albeit less common. A lot of hooey is raised by the left about how 'ignorant' red state citizens are, and I can't even count the instances of corruption amongst the left.

kitwulfen wrote:They're all about MAC10s and Uzis and AR15s and Glocks.

A MAC10? Does that have a boxlike appearance, by any chance?

Doink wrote:

kitwulfen wrote:They're all about MAC10s and Uzis and AR15s and Glocks.

A MAC10? Does that have a boxlike appearance, by any chance?

Disregarding that it wasn't actually me that sad that, a quick search on Wikipedia reveals this picture, which shows that it is rather box-like. The article indicates that the MAC10 was widely available before NFA ban on them in '86, and has led to them be some of the least expensive NFA firearms available. Of course, you're still talking several months worth of background checks, a 200 dollar transfer tax, and the several thousand dollars you'll have to pay for the firearm itself. So legal full auto MAC10's are beyond the realm of any gangbanger. I am not prepared to speculate on the availability of illegal machine guns. That said, it appears that there are some semi-auto version available.

Oh yeah, I definitely saw that gun in a manga. Looks like they got their information right. Is it fully automatic?

Kit: I wasn't talking about gangers, I was talking about young shooters/gunowners in general, who seem to have missed the whole "aiming" lesson in favor of the "see how fast it goes" mentality. Basically - the more ammo in the magazine, the more rounds per minute, the "cooler" the gun. (I should note, however, that I am in this age group and do not follow this pattern - my rifle of choice is the Garand with an 8-round clip, even in preference to my AK47...)

Doink & Kit: yes, the MAC-10's a wee bit boxy. I could find you a semiauto variant for about $250, and a full-auto variant for $3,000-$3,500. If you know the folks to call (I do) you can usually find ten or fifteen Class 3 MAC10s in the store. According to the current count on my favorite dealer's website, they have 11 Mac10s and variants running about $3000 to $5000 depending upon caliber variant. Uzis start around $8,000, M16s at $13-18k, FALs about the same... and a full-auto M60 runs you $29k. Myself, I've got a line on a full-auto Springfield Armory SAR-48 for $13,000, which is pretty much the best military firearm ever made.

Doink wrote:Oh yeah, I definitely saw that gun in a manga. Looks like they got their information right. Is it fully automatic?

Some versions, yes. It's properly a "machine pistol" which means accuracy sucks and rate of fire is high. Basically, a close-quarters weapon. I can't think of any reason I'd need one.

Just a couple notes.

1. You can tell when someone's out of verbal ammo when instead of attacking the point, they attack the person. This happens a lot on the Internet. "I'm right!" "No, I'm right!" "You're a moron!" (usually not that quickly)

2. All the arguing in the world doesn't change the fact that Mr. Cosby was 100% RIGHT. The people most responsible for "oppressing" black people are OTHER BLACK PEOPLE. It's the "thugg life" culture and the feeling that "the man" is keeping them down that's keeping them from getting anywhere. I can't say so, or I'll be branded a racist.

3. Cheapskate, lazy gunmen are the best marksmen. A, they don't wanna spend the money on more bullets and B, they don't wanna carry them all. So they get better aim. Be lazy--do it right the first time and you don't have to do it again.

4. I scarcely believe the Israeli cease-fire lasted as long as it did. I didn't think it'd last ten minutes. As far as THAT situation is concerned I'm increasingly of the belief that only two things will stop it--the complete elimination of radical Islam, or the complete elimination of everything BUT radical Islam--and neither of those seems likely.

5. I don't know anything about guns compared to the rest of you, so that's all Greek to me. My knowledge lies in other circles.

Kerry Skydancer wrote:But... but he was -blaming- people for doing bad things! And everyone -knows- it's only rich white males who cause problems by being, y'know, rich and white and male and stuff... so he -must- be one of -them-! So that makes him eeeevil!



The Left thinks the Right is evil. The Right thinks the Left is -stupid-.

The Right has a lot more evidence.

Skydancer

The way I heard it - the Right is stupid, but the Left is batsh__ insane. Granted, a pack of dullards and idiots is hardly the group you want in charge of the government, but it's a clear improvement over a gang of psychotics, lunatics, and escaped mental patients.

BrockthePaine wrote:Kit: I wasn't talking about gangers, I was talking about young shooters/gunowners in general, who seem to have missed the whole "aiming" lesson in favor of the "see how fast it goes" mentality. Basically - the more ammo in the magazine, the more rounds per minute, the "cooler" the gun. (I should note, however, that I am in this age group and do not follow this pattern - my rifle of choice is the Garand with an 8-round clip, even in preference to my AK47...)

My mistake.

Doink & Kit: yes, the MAC-10's a wee bit boxy. I could find you a semiauto variant for about $250, and a full-auto variant for $3,000-$3,500. If you know the folks to call (I do) you can usually find ten or fifteen Class 3 MAC10s in the store. According to the current count on my favorite dealer's website, they have 11 Mac10s and variants running about $3000 to $5000 depending upon caliber variant. Uzis start around $8,000, M16s at $13-18k, FALs about the same... and a full-auto M60 runs you $29k. Myself, I've got a line on a full-auto Springfield Armory SAR-48 for $13,000, which is pretty much the best military firearm ever made.

Your dealer's prices sound a little high on the M16's. I'm personally saving up for an RDIAS to go with my LWRC SOC AR15 upper (gas piston, yummy).

Think as you will. I am a young shooter with an AR15. I prefer the 20rd mags to the 30rd mags, because the 20's actually make the rifle usable in prone and bench positions, and they balance better with offhand.

3. Cheapskate, lazy gunmen are the best marksmen. A, they don't wanna spend the money on more bullets and B, they don't wanna carry them all. So they get better aim. Be lazy--do it right the first time and you don't have to do it again.

Gonna have to go with, "wrong" on this one. Shooting is a skill that's acquired through practice. In order to get into the range of "superb" or "best," you have to send thousands upon thousands upon thousands of rounds downrange to build muscle memory and practice technique. Bump-firing and just squeezin them off doesn't count. You don't get to be this good by being lazy.

kitwulfen wrote:

3. Cheapskate, lazy gunmen are the best marksmen. A, they don't wanna spend the money on more bullets and B, they don't wanna carry them all. So they get better aim. Be lazy--do it right the first time and you don't have to do it again.

Gonna have to go with, "wrong" on this one. Shooting is a skill that's acquired through practice. In order to get into the range of "superb" or "best," you have to send thousands upon thousands upon thousands of rounds downrange to build muscle memory and practice technique. Bump-firing and just squeezin them off doesn't count. You don't get to be this good by being lazy.

I don't think that's what he meant...

I'm a 'lazy' gunner myself, in the way that I take my time to aim and fire the weapon instead of just dumping a truckload of lead at the target. If I can hit it with one bullet, why waste a magazine?
(I was considered a good shot with the AG-3, a Norwegian built version of the H&K G3, and that weapon isn't exactly listed under 'Accurate' in any Encyclopaedias... )

What you were thinking of was bloody idiots, the kind who takes a rifle to go deer-hunting once every year without firing a single shot as practice the rest of the year...
Every time I see or hear about that kind I feel an overwhelming urge to violate the hole they sit on with the barrel of their weapons...