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*Hits Brock with a tranq dart, then drags him off to a secret location.*

Brock: *Wakes up* "Huh?"

Rokas: "Wakey wakey, Mr. Paine..."

B: "What? What's going on?"

R: "It's time to tell us what you know, Mr. Paine."

B: "I'll never talk!"

R: "Oh, you'll talk... It's only a matter of time... And pain." *Puts on headphones and then plays a boy band CD*

B: "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

I know something you don't know, I know something you don't know...

Alright alright, Rokas, you win. The guy in the cage is a bat critter, as Kerry said on the previous page, and when Quintyn frees him (of course he's going to free him, duh), Peph's going to "borrow" Wildcard and try to attack the townspeople. Except Wildcard is bonded, and Peph is promptly electrocuted and barbequed. The townsfolk are annoyed that Quintyn "zapped" Peph (even though they were planning to kill him anyways), and chase Quentyn back to the ship, where they are swarmed by the Dryads, whom Quintyn pays off with some more honey as he gets the ship ready to lift off. This whole experience teaches Quintyn that folk can and will try to earn his trust and then use it for their own selfish ends...

bigdude wrote: To Ralph's credit, Quentyn's firing stance in that Wright scene was awesome. Near a perfect Weaver stance as I recall. Lesse if I can find it...
...
http://npc.comicgenesis.com/d/20050117.html

It's Weaverish, but not quite right. The most obvious difference is that instead of his left hand..err paw...or whatever... should be cupping underneath the pommel and up around his trigger hand instead of supporting higher on the wrist.

Also, notice that his shoulders appear to be square and his right leg is either even with his left or slightly in front of. A proper weaver stance would have him 'cheated out' (sorry...acting term...means turned more so that his chest is somewhat facing us), his back leg behind his left and turned slightly outward, and his right shoulder back somewhat.

Ok, ok, so they are minorish details, but still!

BrockthePaine wrote:I know something you don't know, I know something you don't know...

Alright alright, Rokas, you win.

Heh. Be grateful - I was going to use Sailor Bubba on you.

You are absolutely wrong about "cupping" with the off-hand.

Whoever taught you that was flat wrong.

The fingers of the off-hand go around the front of the grip on top of the shooting hand fingers. If he's really doing it right he's pushing forward with the strong hand (errr...yeah, "paw") and pulling back with the weak. This tension is what solidifies the Weaver.

Lesse...I'll try and google Jeff Cooper on the subject...

Wait. Bangs head. Before we go there: Ralph drew him cupping his strong-hand WRIST. Sigh. RALPH! That's worse! And now that I look again...dangit, you're right, his legs are crossed up. RALPH! You've got his sword handling down pat, doing great there, time to get your butt to a shooting range and learn something if you're going to show him using that crossbow-thing.

Sigh. Missed that too in all the other coolness of that pic.

Never mind. Back to Cooper...well damn, google isn't showing his tutorial on the Weaver. Found some other references though:

http://pistolsmith.com/viewtopic.php?t= ... b052450efc

This is one of the more professional sources I was able to find:

http://www.nwtccja.com/documents/Daat/D ... 202002.doc

Quoting:

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WEAVER STANCE: A shooting position invented by Jack Weaver in 1959. The stance offers good recoil control, a stable firing platform, and mobility and flexibility in application. Components: reaction side forward, strong side back, knees slightly bent, support elbow flexed and pointing down, strong elbow locked or slightly bent, strong arm pushing out slightly, support arm pulling back slightly.
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You can't pull back on the off-hand while cupping. Note the source on that:

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Defensive and
Arrest Tactics

A Training Guide For
Law Enforcement Officers

Wisconsin Department of Justice
Law Enforcement Standards Board
April 2002
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OH! Hah, here we go, written by Jack Weaver's son quoting his father (yes, the inventor of the hold):

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I remember a "pistol shoot" sometime around 1960 at Big Bear, California. As a boy of six, I was an old hand at shooting competitions having witnessed many shootouts where the targets were balloons wedged into old tires. I was hanging around backstage and overheard two gunslingers talking about how "someone should break Weaver's left arm." Holy cow!! I ran straight to my trusted sidekick, my mother, and revealed the details of the plot I had just discovered. She explained to me that these men were most likely not serious about breaking dad's arm, but were upset because they couldn't shoot straight one-handed and dad was wiping them all out using his two-hand technique.

For myself, from that day forward, the Weaver Stance has meant using both hands. But forget me, here is what my father wrote describing his method in the article entitled "Jack Weaver Speaks" from Handguns magazine, February 1994. "Number one, there are people who for some reason or other like to take something that is very simple and make something complicated out of it. The important thing is the hand position on the gun (no wrist grabbing or palm-under-the-hand stuff). I put my left thumb over my right and squeeze tighter with my left (weak) hand than the right. The rest is up to the individual. Unless you are a Jack Weaver clone, you can't be expected to do everything exactly like I do." For an in-depth analysis of this stance and good information on handgunning, read the book "Shooting Handguns" by Mike Mangiaracina (see link on home page).

Source:
http://weaverstance.com/about.htm
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Bigdude again. OK, now we got it.

Ralph, hope you're reading this. Have the little furball get some training in gun-fu somewhere along the line .

EdBecerra wrote:

BrockthePaine wrote:I know something you don't know, I know something you don't know...

Alright alright, Rokas, you win.

Heh. Be grateful - I was going to use Sailor Bubba on you.

You are truly evil.

I cannot abide competition, goodbye. *Sends his robo-ninjas after you.*


And how would you know this stuff, Brock?

Rokas wrote:And how would you know this stuff, Brock?

Same way I've got several pictures of the Rebel Cry.

'Course, there's no reason to think any Rac Conan version of Weaver ever existed. Ralph hasn't shown the existance of any Rac Conan handguns firing solid shot, and he hasn't told us whether firing lux elf-shot involves any recoil. Lux is energy, not material. It may have no weight or mass.
Just tossing in a bit of confusion...

BrockthePaine wrote:I know something you don't know, I know something you don't know...

Alright alright, Rokas, you win. The guy in the cage is a bat critter, as Kerry said on the previous page, and when Quintyn frees him (of course he's going to free him, duh), Peph's going to "borrow" Wildcard and try to attack the townspeople. Except Wildcard is bonded, and Peph is promptly electrocuted and barbequed. The townsfolk are annoyed that Quintyn "zapped" Peph (even though they were planning to kill him anyways), and chase Quentyn back to the ship, where they are swarmed by the Dryads, whom Quintyn pays off with some more honey as he gets the ship ready to lift off. This whole experience teaches Quintyn that folk can and will try to earn his trust and then use it for their own selfish ends...

It would've made a neat story arc, and now I certainly hope it -isn't- what's going to happen. Besides, bats are honorable creatures! We wouldn't do anything like that...

Forgive a silly statement, but...

How would Quentyn know a Weaver stance (other than the stance of a weaver at the loom)? His elfshot crossbow doesn't have as much recoil, and isn't a killing weapon anyway. (Well, unless you're up against a mad budgie.)

Here's what happened the first time he fired it. As you can see, there's no perceptible recoil. In fact, he's in an almost-perfect Weaver stance at that one instant... well, the instant just before he jumped almost a foot high (and that's high for a Rac'Conan). Strong side back, weak side forward, both hands on the grip.

By contrast, in the strip others have cited, he's facing off against a small army of rat-wights. He's less concerned with individual accuracy than spreading the hurt around as much as possible. So he's strong side forward, weak hand grasping strong wrist (because of the stiff action) to keep his arc of fire steady. He needs to keep his aim low to hit the rats, after all, and his own heartbeat will make his aim jump if he's not careful.

Weaver's great when you have time for it. Otherwise, you do what you can.

Yours truly,

The wolfish,

Wanderer

Well the push-pull effect is more stable. No question. It's directly derived from how you handle a long-gun, pulling it into the shoulder, and THAT they definately know!

As to recoil that first time he fired it there sure looked to be SOMETHING going on!

Bruce Bergman wrote:And Quentyn's thinking in the last panel "now would be the time to get out of there before they all focus on me..."

Shyeah, Right... That'll never happen - this comic would be over in another week if he didn't have the huevos to get involved when he was needed.

At the typical lynching party, there's only one person who objects. And rven if they're valid objections, they usually get overruled.

--<< Bruce >>--

Yes, you see the trick is to present *invalid* observations, not valid objections. Appeals to the mob listing the prisoner's sterling qualities will *not* be listened to. Take a look at how the mob was taken out of its lynching mood in Blazing Saddles and you start to see what works. It's replacing unreasoned angry emotion with something else, in that case concern over a hostage.

I was told once of a story of how a priest stood down a mob. He just started talking, talking about this fellow he knew and that, about their children, their wives, how their crops were. The thought of home and hearth and all that is good and just in life melted the anger away and they just all decided one by one that now would be a good time to go home.

bigdude wrote:You are absolutely wrong about "cupping" with the off-hand.

Whoever taught you that was flat wrong.

The fingers of the off-hand go around the front of the grip on top of the shooting hand fingers. If he's really doing it right he's pushing forward with the strong hand (errr...yeah, "paw") and pulling back with the weak. This tension is what solidifies the Weaver.

Heh, yeah, I was actually thinking along those same lines as I wrote the previous, but it seemed a bit easier to describe it that way. The way I shoot though has my hand mostly in front, but slightly angled down, so it is partially underneath and 'cuppish' (really only the pinky and it's cooresponding second of hand...). I wasn't aware that you would be intimately familiar with the weaver, so for the sake of lazy typing and thinking, I let it slide. Forgive meee! heh

Also, it was actually my first time describing it, or hearing it described, and not just doing it. No one ever taught me to shoot, I just picked it up as I went along and taught myself. I somehow came across a close approximation of the weaver stance on my own before I ever even first read about it on the internet years ago. So mine probably mixes a small bit of the old with the new. Alas for the lack of teachers! Oh well, self-sufficiency isn't the worst thing in the world...unless we start talking of spiritual matters...then of course, there is only the illusion of self-sufficiency. But that would be a long post...and I've got work to do! (and breakfast to eat! yay food!)

bigdude wrote:Well the push-pull effect is more stable. No question. It's directly derived from how you handle a long-gun, pulling it into the shoulder, and THAT they definately know!

As to recoil that first time he fired it there sure looked to be SOMETHING going on!

Not much, if anything. He jumped, certainly: He was expecting "spang", just one little "spang" when he pulled the trigger. Instead, he pulls... pulls harder... harder... and... "SPANG!" Given that his shots still hit the scarecrow (at least mostly), there can't be much kick, if any. With him jumping, his whole body twitching, any significant amount of recoil would've had luxdarts decorating the ceiling... not the floor.

Yours truly,

The physics-checking,

Wanderer