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Now, I don't agree with Ralph on abolutely everything. Who does? But the guy does have a point about the state of public schools. I've been sifting through his LiveJournal and found a rant defending home-schooling and raising it above public schools.

Now I consider myself a very lucky guy, and I have yet to experience the worst of what has been described in school (I haven't had a bully problem since sixth grade.), but I have noticed some stuff going on that really pisses me off.

When I first began my math class last semester, the teacher skipped town without any notice and I had to endure a parade of substitutes, during which no work was accomplished whatsoever, until balance was restored to the universe with the arrival of a permanant teacher. My grades in math never recovered from this incident, and I now pretty much loathe the subject.

Another problem I've been noticing is the general apathy of students. I'm pretty neurotic when it comes to my grades, having been trained via pavlovian methods to hyperventilate whenever I get a C or worse. Compare that with another kid I know who just doesn't give a damn that his grades are going to crap. Granted, he is working a job and all, but he still has absolutely no excuse to cut classes as much as he does.

Another huge problem I've been noticing is the, ahem, open displays of affection in the halls of this 'prestigious academy' (sarcasm). I have seen no less than five displays of frenching, and once in the bus parking lot I swear I saw a guy lifting a girl over his back. Now, I doubt that these smacktards have the cranial capacity to establish a meaningful relationship with anyone, so basically this means that they have no self-control and probably have sex in a closet somewhere. One of the people I know has displayed disturbing tendencies of womanizing and two-timing (flirting with other girls when he's technically dating one, asking if I'd draw geckos in bikinis).

Which birngs me to point number four. I've mentioned in the Marksmanship thread that my school is composed of predominantly black children (I myself am a seventeen-year-old caucasian male.). Now, some of my friends are black, but guess what all of them have in common? That's right, they stand up straight and fly right, acting like complex human beings. Most of the black kids at my school sadly do not qualify as deep, only as 'gangstas'. When all of these retards talk about 'bitches and hos', it makes me want to kick in the screen of a computer monitor and scream obscenities until I'm blue in the face. Martin Luther King Junior did not give his life to the civil rights cause so you could brag about how much how much 'bling' you have, you sex-crazed nutjobs! When you actually refer to yourselves as 'niggas', you forfeit any sympathy from me, and you lose all rights to complain about the 'white man keeping you down'!

But if I had to choose which part of school pisses me off the most, I'd have to finger the social group. I have Asperger's syndrome, which means that I have a specialized IEP that I have to follow if I want my CA teacher off of my back. Now, my teacher (name withheld in case she finds out ) is a nice enough person, but she nags everybody like there's no tomorrow. 'Put away the book, Bradley.' 'Get up off of the floor, Bradley.' 'Make sure you come to the social group on Tuesday, Bradley.' She's working my last nerve by forcing me to make small talk with complete strangers! God forbid I read a book instead of having a conversation. The way that woman acts, it's as if she's the only one standing between me and total social abandonment. Well, I've made about five friends at school and many more online, all without her help. It's fortunate for me that she's leaving for a new job at the end of the year and I don't have to put up with her crap for much longer (frankly, I'd prefer dealing with the Future Gangbangers of America). Here, let me show you the door. The one that'll hit your ass on the way out.

So anyways, that's my beef with my current school. I'm just thankful that I haven't run afoul of drugs or gun violence at school. I don't actually hate public school, in fact, reading over a student's shoulder while he was at the computer a few years back led me to some of my favorite websites of all time. Also, my english teacher is a very interesting and admirable woman who encourages reading and controversy, even if she does tend to lean to the left (I've tried to get her to get an account here so she can debate on this forum. She's very good at that. So far, no luck.).

But other than that, I think that Ralph hit the nail on the head with this one. I think I could stand to spend a little bit more time with my parents...

I know I don't actualy live in the Us, so the situation could be totaly difrent out there, but the problem with our school system is that the people running it are compleat hippercrits. They keep talking about how pupils are responcible trustworth people, how we are all individuals and yadda yadda yadda. Yet the entire system relies specificaly on every pupil that walks through their doors being a total idiot, a blank drone that needs to be taught everything from the ground up in exactly the same way as every other drone in the class, theres no room individuality.
Home schooling is all fine and dandy, but you need someone who already knows what they're doing at the helm, and a good persentage of adults wouldn't have the slightest idea where to start, especialy if they intend to school their child solo. Maybe that should become Another module in Citizenship, oh but wait, I forgot, thats not 'culturely developing enough for the students'. Thats another thing that pisses me off as well, the whole idea that we need to actualy teach our students what it is to be British. And these morons are sitting there, scratching their heads wondering 'why our kids are getting less tolerant'. The whole thing is just one grate big bole of hipocrocy, political corectness and govermental spin'doctoring.

Just to play the devil's advocate here, I'd like to point out that I had absolutely no problems in school, which I probably have mentioned before.

Some quick facts:
- Graduated High School in 1994 (#76 in a class of 406)
- Took many Honors and College Prep classes
- Was in the Math Club, Spanish Club, National Honors Society, Class Steering Committee, & Computer Club
- Played township soccer during elementary school
- Played Freshman Football and Wresting
- Woked 20 hours a week at the local Pathmark (supermarket) in the maintainence department during Junior & Senior years
- Had friends in just about every clique
- Was never bullied or maliciously put down, even though I was overweight & a self-proclaimed geek
- Had wonderfuly dedicated teachers (even the ones I didn't like)

In short, I had a good experience in public school and it prepared me to, eventually, receive my Masters in Civil Engineering. I agree that we need to take a good, hard look at the funding and staffing of public schools, but they are not inherintly evil.

Just my $0.02.

- Mjolnir

I'm not saying that public school isn't completely enjoyable, just that mine has some problems that could potentially be avoided with homeschooling. This is mainly qualifying a rant Ralph posted in his Livejournal a few years back.

Mjolnir wrote:I agree that we need to take a good, hard look at the funding and staffing of public schools, but they are not inherintly evil.
- Mjolnir

I'm well aware. Ralph may beg to differ, though.``

I have made my opinions of the public indoctrination system in the US a few times in the past. (That sentence alone should give you an idea what I think of it) But as long as we're comparing notes, allow me to tell you what my life was like in the meat grinder we call public school.

It was HELL. The teachers didn't care, the students didn't care, the principal was a champion of "ZERO TOLERANCE" regulatory bull, every dime the school had went to the freakin' football team. We were treated like prisoners, watched like hawks everywhere we went. To give you a few examples of the sheer idiocy that ran this establishment:

A school locker was "your responsibility" if something was stolen out of it (someone stole my CD player, so it was my fault for bringing it in). However, my locker was searched 4 times in one year because they suspected I was carrying drugs. So it's theirs when it's convenient for them, and mine when it isn't.

If two students were involved in a fight, even if the victim does nothing but curl up into a ball and take the beating, BOTH students are suspended. I've been dumped into trash cans, shoved into lockers and nearly pushed down the stairs multiple times, and the administration would do nothing. I let fly with one expletive to express my frustration and it's a one-way ticket to detention for me.

Anyone who stood out was ostracized by the student body. I'm somewhat taller and somewhat larger than most, I wear glasses and look kinda dorky. So of course I was singled out and ridiculed on a daily basis.

The school now forbids backpacks of any kind, and all students must pass through a metal detector and are subject to random searches by campus security. The problem here is that the average student is loaded down with so much homework that you can't possibly carry everything you need home in your hands. 7 textbooks each the size of the NYC phone directory, plus notebooks, plus binders, plus whatever else you need.

The really sad part is I know my school isn't the worst out there. People spend so much time laying the smack down on these kids there's no time left to learn. (Like they're actually trying to teach. ALl they want is for the kids to conform)

If it's possible to homeschool, it should be done. Plain and simple.

I have had the good fortune to have attended public, private, and home schools. Homeschooling is not for everybody, but it was pretty decent for me (though I probably would have been better taking math from a real school, thats the one subject I had difficulty with). Frankly, public school was a waste of my time: I learned more from regular trips to the library than I learned in school, and being an advanced reader usually put me a grade or two ahead of my classmates. Thus, I was not actually taught knowledge, but I was rather taught how to take my existing knowledge and fake it. Essentially I learned that I didnt have to work for my grades. When we started homschooling when I was in the 7th grade, I had to slowly unlearn all that, and I dont think its entirely been unlearned. Public school, IMHO, teaches people how to be average whereas homeschooling teaches children how to excel.

I intend to homeschool my children from day one. IMHO, the best thing you can teach a child is not math and science and literature - the best thing you can teach them is how to think for themselves, be a hard dedicated worker, and then watch them change the world. I saw a quote the other day that said "There is no limit to what a person can achieve if they determine that doubling their effort can compensate for a lack of skills." (Or something along that nature).

BrockthePaine wrote:IMHO, the best thing you can teach a child is not math and science and literature - the best thing you can teach them is how to think for themselves, be a hard dedicated worker, and then watch them change the world.

I'm with you 100%. My parents helped me in that regard as well, but I also have many teachers that did the same. Were there teachers that didn't care to go the extra mile? Of course (and the problems I still have with spelling things correctly is a sign of that) but I found that they were in the minority, at least in my region.

Far more, I found that the teahcers were willing to force us to think. The spanish teacher I had for 3 differant classes did that. he didn't hold our hands during the class, but he spoke in spanish about 90% of the time. It forced us to try and pick up what he was saying by thinking about what he was trying to get across. He wouldn't just say what the word for table was, he'd say it in spanish and point until we caught on.

I, also, was fairly ahead in my reading and math skills during school. I had some trouble breaking bad habits when I went to college, but it wasn't overwhelming. I still had to work for some of my grades, especially in the higher math courses during high school. The fact that I was beyond whatever my parents had taken when they were in school meant that it was all on me to learn it.

In any case, what I'd really like to see is a system set up where the taxes paid toward education would follow the child, not just go to the public school. That would force the public schools to compete with private and home schooling for the tax dollar. A little bit of capitalism wouldn't hurt the system, I think, and it'd help out the families that wouldn't send their children there anyway.

- Mjolnir

Mjolnir wrote:In any case, what I'd really like to see is a system set up where the taxes paid toward education would follow the child, not just go to the public school. That would force the public schools to compete with private and home schooling for the tax dollar. A little bit of capitalism wouldn't hurt the system, I think, and it'd help out the families that wouldn't send their children there anyway.

Like vouchers, you mean? Oh horror of horrors if we allow vouchers we're not going to be funding our children's education and the schools are going to die and we'll become a backwards third-world poverty-sticken country oh my waaaaaaahhh. No one has ever been able to tell me how vouchers are a bad idea... I really wish I could find somebody who could make a decent argument against them.

Exactly! Vouchers are definately the way to go. They'd let parents shop around for the best school which, in turn, would improve all schools.

- Mjolnir

Mjolnir wrote:Exactly! Vouchers are definately the way to go. They'd let parents shop around for the best school which, in turn, would improve all schools.

What's funny is that public schools don't like vouchers because it means they get less money.

Here's the funny part...the voucher is only a fraction of the per student income to any school district. This means if half of a school district leaves because of vouchers, the amount of money the district can spend per student GOES UP!!

Oh, they may have to lay off teachers, close buildings, and (GASP) lay off administrators, but in the end, they will end up with more money per student.

I also think it is high time to end the stupid social experimenting in schools. It makes absolutely no sense for a school to have someone signing for the two or three deaf students at $30,000 a year, when there are schools in every city for this. I recall playing basketball against the Columbus School for the Deaf. And they nearly beat us!

In some things, separate but equal is far more economically efficient.

maxgoof wrote:
In some things, separate but equal is far more economically efficient.

But we can't do that because THAT'S DISCRIMINATION!!!! Every nutjob in the country comes out and plays the race/disability/poverty card and threatens to sue if everyone isn't treated exactly the same (read: unless their group gets preferential treatment over the rest)

Thank God I never went to public schools. I had enough problems in private schools as it was.

Mjolnir, not to be picky, but there's another reason you had a good time in high school:

You were, technically, a jock. You play sports, of any kind, you're a jock. Also, the sports you competed in were football and wrestling, not exactly "wimpy kids" sports. Takes a tough person to be in either one (I should know, my brother has played both).

While I won't discount the fact you had execellent teachers (in fact, we need to clone them and have them employed in every school in the nation!), I submit that playing any sport raises one's standing within the student body, thus staving off ridicule and winning you lots of friends.

Unfortunately for me, I didn't have many teachers like that (we need to clone my drama teacher, Mr. Lucas, if only to increase the level of insanity in the nation), and I was at the bottom of the food chain. I never played sports. I didn't really do much in any of the school plays I was in (supporting cast anyone?), and the improv club didn't work out so well. I gave my best performance, as a school bus, on the stage... during practices.

I was a shadow, a hurt little boy with only one friend, who didn't do much except keep his grades up because mom and dad said to.

It was hell for me and I still carry a bit of a grudge. *sigh* I should probably get rid of it, but it's not something you can just drop on a moment's notice, y'know?

And what's most infuriating is that my dad just cannot see why I hate public school so much. I'm convinced the system needs to be scrapped in favor of better schools. Dad thinks they just need a tune-up.

*sigh* And all I can think about is that of course he doesn't understand. He was a friggin' jock in high school, and now he's a teacher! He was top of the food chain, and now he's in charge of the aquarium. And he doesn't even realize it.

Ralph, give me some links on so-called "public" schooling and how it got started. I need to flood my dad's inbox.

Sorry for the rant, y'all. I just have a lot to get over...

I think my main problem with the school system boils down to the core values embedded into it.

The first one is that you are dependent on other people. You are dependent on the teacher to tell you what to do, and the system to tell you what to learn next, to meet a minimum standard. Education has to involve other people or you would be discovering all knowledge yourself, but in the actual practice there are always students who try to lean on the teacher without doing anything remotely learning-related, or the teacher who treats the class like army basic training or proceeds along some idealized lecture pattern that is mismatched to the students. And then the teacher has to deal with their department, the rest of the administration, etc. and along the way ideals go out the window. What education should really be doing is not promoting the importance of other people to advance your knowledge, but helping you discover your interests so that you can proceed to spend sleepless nights pursuing them. That didn't *ever* happen in school. It was always "why am I here?" in my head, every day.

The second is that time is used very, very poorly in a typical U.S. school schedule. When you go to every class every day, you waste time travelling, you waste time settling in before the class starts, teachers are obligated to cover all material in an equal amount of time regardless of difficulty(a big problem for the math/science stuff), and mandatory attendance policies make the assumption that attending a class is *always* the best use of a student's time.

The last weighs a lot on me. I was a very good boy and deliberately skipped only once or twice, ever, while I was in high school, because they made the penalties very harsh, but honestly, it made those years terrible, because I while was always finding better, more instructive things to do outside of school between library books and the Internet, I faced a long school day every weekday, 7:30 to 2:30 or often 3:30. That's 7 or 8 hours of *class*, and then afterwards any clubs or sports, homework, etc. At least at a job, when you put in that much time you're done for the day. I really didn't have much energy for anything but video games and web browsing....there were things I remember wanting to learn but not feeling *able* to. That was a terrible feeling.

To me, High School was the worst time of my life.. I was an overweight, shy nerd.. I was dead meat to all the bullies.

I can honestly say I had no friends in High School, in part because I thought everyone was against me except for the teachers. And I just got in trouble whenever I tried to defend myself.

...if I could've had a better educational option, I would've taken it.

The real main problem that I really had with public schools was that there was a lack of a real punishment. I had the misfortune of getting into trouble a total of two times in my Highschool career, due to exagerated events.
The first time, a lunch room incident, I was sent to in-school suspension. As for what people did in in-school suspension, was simple... nothing. Well not absolutely nothing; a little conversation near the beginning of it; a chance to do any homework or just study; a game near the end of it all... If by now you aren't going "A GAME!?" congradulate yourself for not being nearly as naive as I use to be towards the concept of ISS. The whole point of it in theory was to be a punishment, and yet it just ended up being a rather silent goof off day. Also, despite the threat of getting any zeros on assignments on the day of a student's ISS, I was still able to turn in my stuff for their proper grades, and received the homework I missed, though I think it may have been that the teachers knew the kind of kid I was.
The second time, an exagerated pushing incident when a thug deliberately blocked my way when I was in a rush to get an absentee slip (that I accidently left in the previous class) before the bell rang, the thug and I were sent to the office (though he didn't go with me, if he even went), where the only person to give punishment was the principal herself. Being quite distraught after running clear across the school three times (to class to be on time, back to previous class to get missing absentee slip, to class to be on time with said slip), still recovering from an illness, having to go to the principal herself and being of a somewhat sensitive nature, I was in no condition to explain what happened and was given Out-of-School-Suspension. After calming me down as I started to bawling my eyes out at the mention of just "Out-of" and explaining several times that the whole "Permanent Record" thing (the only discernable thing she got out of me after giving me OSS) didn't really matter outside of highschool , I was sent home. Now even me, Mister Honest Mcgilacudy (or however the fake honest name is suppose to be spelt), didn't spend the whole day studying, doing homework, or even thinking of what I did (at least in the terms of absolute repentence). With the homework done the previous day, and after looking over the current subjects in each class twice over, I found I still had several hours left which naturally was spent on watching TV and forgetting the affairs of the previous day. The next day, once again I was able to get assignments turned in, and recieved missed assignments with no penalty from teachers. I also found out from a friend in that class, that it seemd that the thug that from the beginning of this affair, apparently didn't get any type of punishment, which I would have ignored (considering he didn't do anything directly to break the rules I suppose) except that I never even saw him go into the office, and there was no other person he could have gone to at the time, except the principal, to attempt to clear his name of any accusation that was placed on the office slip he was given. Considering the type of teacher that sent the two of us to the office, I was able to come up with the following; the teacher in question, being rather lax, had only given us the formality of the slip to the office, without actually filing the report that teachers claim they file to ensure that students do indeed go to the office to accept punishement, thus if I did not actually go to the office, I wouldn't have even suffered penalty, provided I just avoided going to the remainder of that class (being the last one) and/or just said I got off with a warning the next time I did attend it, thus meaning I wouldn't have had one wasted day of learning and wouldn't have had to play catch-up with the assignments on that day.
Overall, both forms of suspension were jokes. The kids that actually care about their assignments and learning, are rarely the ones to go around causing trouble, while the opposite is true of the kids that don't. And since they simply don't care, suspensions just end up being free days for them. And since we are expected to be honest, any teacher that doesn't file any report that he sent so-and-so to the office (provided that it isn't another thing I have been naive about), any dishonest kid (which would be most of the trouble-makers) can and will avoid taking punishment for what they did, if they wanted to avoid having suspension for any reason.

Hmmm, what did I learn in school?

Kindergarten (public) – Life isn't fair, it's OK for someone to destroy your property, but unless you have absolute proof of the deed the authorities just want it to be kept quiet.

1-5 (private/Christian) – Don't be different, be quiet, the Horde hates different people. Don't go to the authorities to try to solve your problems (with the Horde), in the long run it only makes them worse. Religion can be used as a bludgeon to crush one's spirit.

6 (public) – When physically attacked, don't fight back, you'll get the same punishment as the aggressor. Some teachers are willing to help, but that is limited.

7-8 (public) – Starting into physical maturity sucks. Sports are gods. There are actually cool teachers, but their power is very limited. Friendships don't last in the power of the god of athletics.

9 – 12 (public) – Foot-baal is the greatest of the gods of athletics, all acolytes of this god are to be given preferential treatment, punishment for transgressing their holy persons will be swift, sure and immediately meted out. Stay quiet, don't make noise. Some classes are actually fun. Communism is the only fair form of government, gun control will bring peace to America, Atheism is the only true religion.

College (state) – There are other freaks out there like me, I'm not alone in the universe! (=^^=) There are people who will accept me for who and what I am. Human interaction is so much more fun than endless hours of study (BAD idea!!! =X.X=) Engineers must breed by macro-cellular division, because most of the females still gravitate to the acolytes of foot-baal. The universe is far to complex a structure to be a product of random happenstance.

Military (boot camp) – Please tell me I wasn't that much of a whiner when I was a junior in high school! (Fearful that I probably was...)

Military (AIT) – With good leadership, it is possible for a diverse group of individuals to form a team and function well, regardless of age, race, faith, or ethnicity.

Military (in general) – There is such a thing as “a joke” and sometimes people really don't mean what they say. Don't be so thin skinned. A good NCO is a priceless commodity! Bad leadership will destroy a good thing. DO NOT complain (directly) to the (bad) leadership about perceived shortcomings (>X.X<). A diverse group of individuals can form a family.

Home / independent study – I am a unique creation, crafted in the image of God. If I would bear Christ's name, I will be placed under a microscope by the world and my actions reviewed. I need to study the Bible more often.

50% of all the crap that has happened to me I brought upon myself through my own shortcomings, failings and ignorance. Were it not for God, I would have probably killed myself sometime during High School or College.

I am not, nor will I ever be a perfect individual.

OK, that's my rant, but it feels good to get it off my chest =^^=.
The schools can only work with the materials that is given them, and that applies to both sides of the teacher's desk. The more politics that is involved, the worse everything will be.

StrangeWulf13 wrote:You were, technically, a jock.

Sorry, but did you just call me a jock? You, my friend, have been sadly misinformed. Playing sports does not grant jock-hood, any more than sending an e-mail makes you a nerd. Heck, half of the people on my soccer team were geeks (I know because we played D&D together) and the main reason we were there was because our parents signed us up.

To be a jock, IMHO, you have to care more about sports, and the popularity they bring you, more than anything. Sports were just something I did and were easily dropped as I need more time for homework or my job. Also, I had confrontations with some of the actual jocks I played with. Nothing major, but since I wasn't "fully devoted to the team" I was some what of an outsider.

Me, a jock. Now that's comedy.

- Mjolnir

P.S. How could anyone with a sig like mine be a jock?

Hmm. Interesting stories.

A couple of books I've read focus on this problem:

Speak by Laurie Halse Anderson;
The Chocolate War by Robert Collier;
and Beyond the Chocalte war, also by Robert Collier.

They're all excellent reads.

In other news, there's been an article about parents complaining about the allowance of certain books in schools (The Chocolate War, Beloved, and The Color Purple), but most of these parents homeschool their kids, so the books aren't going to reach their children regardless. My English teacher (one of the cool ones) was pretty pissed that these people were interfering in matters that didn't concern them, not to mention trying to make public schools more vanilla than they already were. To be fair, if the parents were trying to get books UNBANNED, I'd probably side with them.

"In that promising land {England} the spirit of I'm as good as you has already become something more than a generally social influence. It begins to work itself into their educational system. How far its operations there have gone at the moment, I would not like to say with certainty. Nor does it matter. Once you have grasped the tendency, you can easily predict its future developments; especially as we ourselves ill play our part in the developing. The basic principle of the new education is to be that dunces and idlers must not be made to feel inferior to intelligent and industrious pupils. That would be 'undemocratic'. These differences between the pupils - for they are obviously and nakedly individual differences - must be disguised.

"This can be done on various levels. At universities, examinations must be framed so that nearly all the students get good marks. Entrance examinations must be framed so that all, or nearly all, citizens can go to universities, whether they have any power to profit by higher education or not. At schools, the children who are too stupid or lazy to learn languages and mathematics and elementary science can be set to do things that children used to do in their spare time. Let them, for example, make mud-pies and call it modeling. But all the time there must be no faintest hint that they are inferior to the children who are at work. Whatever nonsense they are engaged in must have - I believe the English already use the phrase - 'parity of esteem'. An even more drastic scheme is not impossible.

"Children who are fit to proceed to a higher class may be artificially kept back, because the others would get a trauma - Beelzebub, what a useful word! - by being left behind. The bright pupil remains democratically fettered to his own age-group throughout his school career, and a boy who would be capable of tackling Aeschylus or Dante sits listening to his coeval's attempts to spell out A CAT SAT ON THE MAT.

"In a word, we may reasonably hope for the virtual abolition of education when I’m as good as you has fully had its way. All incentives to learn and all penalties for not learning will be prevented; who are they to overtop their fellows? And anyway the teachers – or should I say, nurses? – will be far too busy reassuring the dunces and patting them on the back to waste any time on real teaching. We shall no longer have to plan and toil to spread imperturbable conceit and incurable ignorance among men. The little vermin themselves will do it for us. "

--CS Lewis, "Screwtape Proposes A Toast," 1960.