Public Schools OR Hell in a Handbasket

[RHJunior]

http://www.spinninglobe.net/againstschool.htm

http://nj.npri.org/nj98/05/prussian.htm

http://www.dvschool.org/psngatto.htm

http://slashdot.org/articles/99/04/25/1438249.shtml

http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/d ... ntID=11520

http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html <--- very, VERY good article! Very insightful.

http://www.paulgraham.com/renerds.html <--- followup article, also very insightful, though I fear the author discredits the inherent influence of the school system's design in its results.

[StrangeWulf13]

Thank ya, Ralph.

And Mjolnir, while you might not think you were a jock, it's more a matter of whether the other students thought that. Since athletes tend to be given a great deal of respect in public school (and sometimes it borders on cult worshiping), anyone they perceive as a "jock", no matter that person's interests outside of school and the sport, is instantly raised up in the heirarchy that naturally forms within the system.

So, even if you find the idea of being a jock laughable, it is quite possible that many people at least thought of you like that in some way, enough to keep ridicule from being directed at you at least. Yes, I know you think they'd probably be nuts to call you a "jock", but sanity is too expensive of a commodity in public school.

I should know. Mr. Lucas, my Drama teacher, couldn't afford to spend a single dime on it!

If nothing else, the jumping off the roof stunt proves it... Man, I miss that guy.

[Mjolnir]

Well, let me put it this way. Yes, I played football and wrestled, but so did others. In fact, if they looked at me as a jock, then they'd also have looked at one of my other classmates that way as well, and he weighed close to 350 lb while being only about 5'-6". Somehow, I don't see that. Beyond the fact that no one I was in class with/talked to ever refered to me that way, or put me in a group with otehr jocks. And I knew allot of people.

What I was originally trying to say, though, is that not all school experiences are horrible. Heck, several of my friends, most of which were "band geeks", still look back and say how much fun some of the stuff was. But, again, it seems like our school had teachers a cut above the rest, even if we didn't like some aspects of their classes we still were treated well and fairly. That, IMHO, is probably one of the biggest reasons we all had a decent time in HS.

- Mjolnir

[Jwrebholz]

Ralph: The article you linked above titled "Why Nerds are Unpopular" was a real eye-opener for me.

I mean, I already basically KNEW the public school system was a massive crock of $%&@, but I'd never looked at it quite that way before.

I was a nerd in high school. Thing was, I was willing to do whatever it took to fit in with the rest of the student body. My ultimate goal in high school was to simply be ignored and left alone, but it never happened. A stocky build, poor eyesight and a short temper all conspired to ensure I stuck out like a sore thumb no matter WHAT I did to blend in. I wore the clothes, I listened to the music (and for a time, even convinced myself I LIKED it), I tried my best to do what everyone else was doing--or at least, what I thought they were doing. My grades deliberately suffered--the logic being that popular people got average to marginal grades.

Nothing worked. No matter what I did, I was a pariah along with the very small group of friends I had. I was stuck in a no-win situation, surrounded by a bunch of savage beasts waiting to rip me to shreds at the first inclination. That's what high school is. It is a highly polarized society--you are with us or against us, and they won't let you be with them.

That it is this way deliberately is a crime against humanity. I would suggest those responsible for doing this should be punished, but they are most likely already dead--this has been going on for centuries after all. I'm not sure what's worse--that it started, or that nobody has seen what's wrong and sought to change it. The US public school system has produced a couple generations now of child-adults. That is, adults that still behave like children. If you've spent any time in the corporate world, you'll see a lot of parallels to high school. You have management that's there just to keep the rank and file in line, you have the rank and file willing to do ANYTHING to get ahead, even if it means smearing someone else. You have the childish gossip, the backstabbing, it's every bit like high school--the only major difference being now they pay you.

I apologize for this long-winded pile of vitriol, but I felt it needed to be said.

[Acolyte]

The alarming trend now is the developing theory that one leaves the children with their mothers too long by ripping them away as late as kindergarten. There's a push out here in California to offer free government-funded preschool, ostensibly so that single parents (or both parents if they "need" the money) can work. Once that system is in place it will require a mere stroke of a pen to make it mandatory.

[EdBecerra]

Well, let me put it this way. Yes, I played football and wrestled, but so did others. In fact, if they looked at me as a jock, then they'd also have looked at one of my other classmates that way as well, and he weighed close to 350 lb while being only about 5'-6". Somehow, I don't see that. Beyond the fact that no one I was in class with/talked to ever refered to me that way, or put me in a group with otehr jocks. And I knew allot of people.
- Mjolnir

I think I can speak to this.

One thing sports does is give otherwise hopeless people hope. FALSE hope mind you, but hope.

I live in northeastern Colorado, and when I say school football is a religion here, I'm not exaggerating. The county and town that wins the annual state competition gets huge cash prizes, along with political power.

One year, we had the son of a Samoan immigrant, from a family that carried what some folks call the "Royal Hawaiian" gene. (For those of you who don't get that, it's a thing in what was the Hawaiian royalty... you end up with heart problems and often die early, but you are built like the famous Andre the Giant - naturally, and without glandular problems.)

Kid could walk up to any standard football team, let every single one of them grab on to him and just hang off of him as dead weight, and still casually amble down the field as if they were feathers.

His father, the coach, was offered jobs, awards, and money, simply to change schools so that his son would be on THEIR team, not ours.

Something similar happened to me. I was a nerd and a geek, but my father's family carried a recessive gene that tends to result in larger than normal lungs, and a slow-beating heart. For about a year in high school, once the local track coach found out, I was the marathon runner for the entire school, and the entire town would "Little League father" me to death, telling me that the pride and prestige of the town hung on my winning that state trophy, no matter what.

For that one year, and that one year alone, I was popular. Because I had something the town wanted.

It's that simple, really..

[Doink]

Ralph: The article you linked above titled "Why Nerds are Unpopular" was a real eye-opener for me.

Ditto. Although the popularity problems aren't that much of an issue (I can't remember when I first stopped caring about that. Also, I'm not trying to downplay anyone else's school experiences.), I am quite worried that I'm not going to be qualified enough to do what I want to do as an adult.

The going through the motions thing? Boy oh boy does that hit close to home. I'm forced to take subjects I don't care about and I'm corraled in Curriculum Assistance, which is a bit of a prison in itself. Why can't I just study art and writing all day long? It hurts when I think of all of that wasted effort!

This is why everyone likes college so much. It's as if their endless trek through the burning desert of scholastic learning has come to an end at long last, and they can drink water for the first time in years.

I just finished my junior year of high school today. Only one more time and I'm free forever.

[Acolyte]

There are many things you need to know besides art and writing in order to be well-rounded. As a writer, you'll find that you'll have to know more than just how to put a story together to write good fiction. Not all of these things are necessarily fun to learn, but it's good for you to learn them anyway. It's kind of like eating your vegetables.

Of course, the experience can vary widely depending on how enlightened your local school system or individual teachers are. I had a raft of mediocre teachers in high school -- and three or four exceptional ones who made all the difference. If you don't have any of those, I feel for you.

You will find requirements for courses you'd rather not take in college as well, but yes, you will of necessity take mostly those for at the major subject you choose, especially once you get past your first year.

[Aurrin]

There are many things you need to know besides art and writing in order to be well-rounded. As a writer, you'll find that you'll have to know more than just how to put a story together to write good fiction. Not all of these things are necessarily fun to learn, but it's good for you to learn them anyway. It's kind of like eating your vegetables.

Of course, the experience can vary widely depending on how enlightened your local school system or individual teachers are. I had a raft of mediocre teachers in high school -- and three or four exceptional ones who made all the difference. If you don't have any of those, I feel for you.

You will find requirements for courses you'd rather not take in college as well, but yes, you will of necessity take mostly those for at the major subject you choose, especially once you get past your first year.

Indeed. A bit of all-around learning (at least in the practical subjects) is required simply so that you don't end up like those people on 'Jay-walking' who can't even tell you where Canada is. Most importantly, you need to know:

1) Basic Sciences for safety
(Why shouldn't I put an egg in a microwave?)

2) Geography & History for comprehension of current events
(Why should I care about the middle east? Where is that, exactly, anyway?)

3) Mathematics through Algebra, for basic problem-solving
(If I want to make x amount in y time, how many to do I have to sell in a day? How much do I tip the waiter if it's 15% of the total tab?)

4) English and Composition for efficient communication and safety
(What does that funny little red sign with 8 sides say...? How do I write a letter to tell the senator I don't like what he's doing?)

These are all skills that everyone needs to have simply to go about the business of living and fulfill the duties of being a citizen. Beyond that, I think it should be mostly elective-based or choice-structured (like the major/minor system in college). I mean no slight to the arts, but they're not required in order to meet the minimum obligations of living and to others. I think children should have some exposure to them, and they should absolutely be available for study, but kids shouldn't have it rammed down their throats like they do in courses now. If they want it, fine, and if not, then no.

(Frankly, that comes from the fact that you're born with a sense of style, taste, likes and dislikes, even if they don't match anyone else's. But you're not born with innate knowledge of world events, maths, sciences, and communication. Those you must learn.)

[Atarlost]

History and composition are dangerous. There are people out there who use a People's History as a history textbook. Composition and literature classes weed out anyone who can't write bullshit. You want me to write about racial preferances? "There is no such thing as race". Not much of an essay is it? How about "Race is an artificial cultural construct with no relevance to reality." Still not much of an essay. Want me to write on the morality of warfare? Sure, I can do that. Want me to write about the balance between security and freedom? Sure. Want me to write about literary symbolism in Julius Caesar? It's greek to me.

This is basically why I dropped out of college. I can't get through the basic humanities requirements.

[Bengaley]

I learned very little in highschool, aside from what I really wanted to learn. At almost any time, I could have taken (and would have passed) the GED to get out of highschool early. My mother was trying to make me go down that path, as well.

I'm damned glad I didn't. I wouldn't have been prepared to deal with people.

Thing is, I wasn't a very sociable child when I was 9ish. Rather... the opposite. One of the few 'ADD Children' that actually needed ridalin. I was out of control... and the school systems were fighting over who had to deal with me. My mom got disgusted after the GATE program lost my paperwork for the second time, and put me in homeschool for 5th through 8th grades.

While Homeschooling, we had to turn in one example of my work from each subject a month. What my mom and I did, is once a month, we sat down, and I did one assignment from each subject, and turned that in. The other days of the month, were free to roam and play. I learned NOTHING... and since there were (and still are, actually) no people my age where I live, I had no social interaction. I spent most of those four years watching TV, sleeping, eating, playing video games, (mostly) reading...

I learned nothing. Zero. Zilch. Nothing about curricular subjects. Instead, I learned a very important skill: How to fake being knowledgable until you've a chance to actually sort out what you need to know.

I never realized that until college, though. Served me in good stead my entire life, that ability, specifically the latter part of it. Highschool... didn't teach you that.

But back to the timeline... I enter into highschool with the expectation that I'll be crying to go home within a few hours of hte first day. I could have, if I was just more secure in what I knew, taken the advanced courses for incoming freshmen - my math teacher taught several levels of math courses, gave a placement test - excepting my score of 42/50, the highest score amoung all his classes was 23. That's just an example. @.@

I'm a freelance writer. I've got some assignments going. I've got medals for writing essays, back in high school. It wasn't until I got to college that I knew the difference between 'active' and 'passive', or learned the nuances of the parts of speach. Still don't know 'em. Yet I write.

As for the administration picking the wrong targets... Yup. That's me. School shrink was CONVINCED that Laguna Hills High School was going to be another Columbine, and that I was going to be the one shooting. I don't think he ever changed his mind. Now, I get mad, but its beserk-mad. I'll tackle and kick and bite, but once I'm done doing that, I'm done. No plotting.

But my point is, is that I wasn't ready to leave highschool, regardless of how useless my time was spent there. I honestly wasn't ready, and even if I theoretically was ready, my BELIEF (Much like a stone belives in hardness) that I wasn't ready made me unready.

As for public vs private.. I'm sorry, but it wasn't until College that I met a decent Christian in person, and the only decent private schools were religious. And homeschooling through highschool was not an option - My mother is a single parent, and needed to work to support me and herself.

Is there a point to this post? I dunno.

But to chime in about the Preschool? I went to Head-Start, a preschool program. I'm certain that this helped me out alot.

[Acolyte]

But to chime in about the Preschool? I went to Head-Start, a preschool program. I'm certain that this helped me out alot.

If you're in a situation where you can benefit from Head Start, then the preschool program is a great help. Both my children have needed it. (One is severely handicapped with CP, the other is high-function autistic.)

But is preschool universally necessary? To me it seems an odd coincidence that a number of studies are being published to suggest it is right at the same time there's this movement for making it available to everyone for free. Contradicting earlier studies too, but that doesn't seem to strike anyone in the media as odd.

[Bengaley]

But to chime in about the Preschool? I went to Head-Start, a preschool program. I'm certain that this helped me out alot.

If you're in a situation where you can benefit from Head Start, then the preschool program is a great help. Both my children have needed it. (One is severely handicapped with CP, the other is high-function autistic.)

But is preschool universally necessary? To me it seems an odd coincidence that a number of studies are being published to suggest it is right at the same time there's this movement for making it available to everyone for free. Contradicting earlier studies too, but that doesn't seem to strike anyone in the media as odd.

Most studies that I've seen these days saying punishing your children is too harsh. I take it that you are also living in California? Ya, y'see, that's the the symptom of another problem in Cali, the illegal immigration issue. Preschool for All isn't going to go through.

[Doink]

There are many things you need to know besides art and writing in order to be well-rounded. As a writer, you'll find that you'll have to know more than just how to put a story together to write good fiction. Not all of these things are necessarily fun to learn, but it's good for you to learn them anyway. It's kind of like eating your vegetables.

Of course, the experience can vary widely depending on how enlightened your local school system or individual teachers are. I had a raft of mediocre teachers in high school -- and three or four exceptional ones who made all the difference. If you don't have any of those, I feel for you.

You will find requirements for courses you'd rather not take in college as well, but yes, you will of necessity take mostly those for at the major subject you choose, especially once you get past your first year.

I suppose you're right. I guess I'm just a bit too impatient with high school to appreciate the well-rounded education I'm supposed to be getting.

That reminds me. I've noticed that I'm the only person in this thread who's actually still going through public school. Is that fact going to cloud my judgment in this matter, or am I worring over nothing again?

[The JAM]

Be afraid, be very afraid......

[Madmoonie]

I went to public school, and I had a good time. Well, a good a time as one can have at school. I liked school and I don't think that i am any worse for the wear. But I also have no problem with home-schooling. Its produced some very intelligent people as well. You really have to choose which option is best for the student concerned. Personally, I am in college and......I WANT TO GET OUT! AAAAAAAAAAAAA! One more year! Wanna graduate!

[Mjolnir]

Then it's time for the real world and you realize just how good school was.

- Mjolnir

[Madmoonie]

Then it's time for the real world and you realize just how good school was.

- Mjolnir

I hear that! Recently, I have been having to make plans about my future and relly starting my career. Not just a job, but my CAREER! Kinda daunting.

[Maxgoof]

I have a problem with Head Start.

See, there was a time when the first grade was your first encounter with school.

Then, someone said that that was too harsh a change, and created Kindergarten, where you usually went for a half day, to get you used to being away from your parents, and in a classroom setting, where you could play. You didn't learn much, really, but just had fun away from home.

Then, someone decided that Kindergarten was a good place to learn your ABC's and some early numbers.

Then someone decided that some children needed to be prepared to go to Kindergarten, and thus Head Start was born.

I say, if your kid isn't ready to be away from home for half a day, and isn't ready to learn simple ABC's there is either something wrong with Kindergarten (which was supposed to be doing what Head Start is supposedly doing), or there is something wrong in the HOME!!!

The problem should be fixed there, not in some classroom.

[Trump]

Personally, I was already starting to be able to read when I started Kindergarden. I at least was reading "Hop on Pop" by Dr. Seuss.