Human Technology

[Acolyte]

And why do YOU want to remain human? Seriously.

Frail fleshy body, so easy to break... doesn't even last for 100 years, the majority of them.

Gimme something in a nice hyper-alloy chassis, with a 500 year guarentee and optional replacement every other century.

Human isn't the meat, isn't even the 'soul'. We're the sum of our experiences and memories. As long as there is continuity, I'm still 'me'.

Or do you yean human extinction? 'cause if you're referring to the possibility of "oops, Skynet just launched because it wanted to be rid of us icky fleshlings", yeah, that could happen. A bit stupid on Skynet's part, though.

As the scumbag who betrays the good guys in the first Matrix movie points out "Just gimme a good sim - the BEST sim. Lemme spend eternity like a sultan. Real life? T' hell with THAT crap..."

Skynet would have been better off with bribes, not war.

The numbers of the human race who'd take that over the risks of RL would be both impressive and scary. We're all sell-outs, you know. We can ALL be bought. It's just a matter of "how much?" and "Can anyone *afford* that price?"

Human survival?

Please define what you mean by "human".

And why do you think the post-singularity machines will think it worth providing you with all these things? Why wouldn't a Skynet want to eradicate us? We use valuable resources, and having set the machines in motion will have outlived our usefulness. How would the underachieving human benefit the machine in any way? How would it improve a machine to meld it with a human mind, as you propose? It may seem to make sense from your perspective -- but why would it make sense to the machine? (The problem with The Matrix is that it proposed a completely bogus reason for the machines to want to keep us around. We make very inefficient batteries. Even we can design better ones.)

Humanity is created in the image of God, and is not made with a "hyper-alloy chassis", whatever "hyper-alloy" is supposed to be. Human is the meat, as well as the mind and the spirit. They go together, and their separation in death is unnatural but will be corrected in the future.

Personally, I don't think this Singularity is immanent, or even possible. Our present machines aren't even close to what will be needed, and it may very well be that achievement of them is beyond our capacity. Progress cannot be limitless. If the limit is reached prior to the Singularity, it simply will not happen. Sorry if that upsets your religious belief, but I have no doubt you find mine equally unlikely if not more so.

[Dapple]

How did we get to this point in the conversation?

[Acolyte]

How did we get to this point in the conversation?

We were wondering about relative technological progress outside the Mistwall. I pointed out that continuous progress has not been the rule for some periods of human history and great leaps forward need not be assumed. Ed said he'd rather we were all dead. It took off from there.

[EdBecerra]

And why do you think the post-singularity machines will think it worth providing you with all these things? Why wouldn't a Skynet want to eradicate us? We use valuable resources, and having set the machines in motion will have outlived our usefulness. How would the underachieving human benefit the machine in any way? How would it improve a machine to meld it with a human mind, as you propose? It may seem to make sense from your perspective -- but why would it make sense to the machine? (The problem with The Matrix is that it proposed a completely bogus reason for the machines to want to keep us around. We make very inefficient batteries. Even we can design better ones.)

Point to you.

However, again, define "valuable". Let's face it, politics and diplomacy often boil down to the essense of "What bribe will you take to NOT go to war?"

Organic life tends to be annoyingly hard to kill, and transcendent non-organic life may find it simpler and cheaper to buy us off.

Or, for that matter, there are cats.

Do we "own" them, or do they "own" us? We could easily become the cats of the transcendant types, should they indeed come in to existance.

As for "created in the image of God", I'm reminded of the words of the great author, H. Beam Piper. One of his characters, General Foxx Travis, said it better than I could.

"Draw, Soul! PRE-SENT, Soul!"

(Speaking as a retired military gunsmith, I find that both extremely amusing and extremely appropriate.)

Or, to misquote one of the few biblical characters I can sympathise with, gimme a Jesus whose wounds I can inspect, who's nail-pierced hands I can stick my fingers into.

Yeah, yeah, I know, he got (mildly) dissed with the comment of "blessed are those who who have not seen and yet have believed."

That REALLY irks me, as it tends to strengthen the "blind" bit of "blind faith". And trusting someone "just b'cause" *REALLY* gets my back up. I tend to trust people who are "in the same lifeboat with me", so to speak. Someone who's got just as much to lose as I do. Someone who, if I sink, will be dragged down with me. I can usually trust them, if only because of enlightened self-interest on their part. (Stupid people not included, and I do realize that yeah, there ARE quite a few short-sighted people out there, as well as people who are willing to die, just so long as it causes me pain, in a "I'll cheerfully cut off my own nose to spite my own face" sort of way.)

I much prefer things I can measure, and do not like things that I can't.

As for my mildly extropian views on future and progress, yeah, I could - and likely am - wrong about where we're heading. But let's suppose, just for a moment, the Judeo-Christian religion is correct, there IS a Heaven, and through some bizzare freak of injustice, I end up there.

First, I'd be bored to tears. It's PARADISE! Therefore, by definition I wouldn't be happy. Because I'm only happy when I'm unhappy.

Which means Paradise is, for me, pointless. I'd have to walk out.

Bizzarely twisted of me, isn't it.

And I rather imagine that the Old Man wouldn't be very happy with someone who'd take a look at his hand-crafted afterlife, and prefer something else.

Winning the "game" of life is, to me, losing it. And losing the game is losing it. The only winning move, for me, is for the game to never end.

I'm funny that way, I suppose.

[Tbolt]

Ed, you bring up some interesting points, have you ever read "The Great Divorce" by CS Lewis? The concept is similar; God doesn't send people to hell, they go there because they really don't want what heaven has to offer.


In some ways it makes total sense. God (at least from the Christian perspective) is capable of forgiving all our sins and shortcomings through the blood of Christ. The law offers us a path of least resistance to survive in this dying world. God made us to love Him, but He's not going to put a gun to our head to make us do so.

He designed the game and is willing to forgive us if we break the rules. But if one hates the game, and devotes one's life to breaking the rules, the GM is not going to force us into His house where the rules cannot be broken anymore, that would be cruel and unusual punishment.

[Acolyte]

Ed, you seem to be assuming that we would not be mere annoyances to the post-Singularity machines. Why should they buy us off? Do we buy off the armadillos, or do we just drive over them? Do we buy off vermin, or do we poison them? It actually seems to me that organic life is exceptionally easy to kill, especially species that take upwards of 15 years at minimum per generation.

I have no idea what would be valuable to a machine in any detail, but they will need resources to maintain themselves. These necessarily become valuable. It is dificult to conceive of a situation where they did not require at least some of the same resources as we did. When it comes to competition for them, we would definitely be the losers.

Would it be an injustice for you to get into heaven? I suppose -- perhaps even nearly as big an injustice as it would be for me. We prefer to call it "mercy" though. It was the whole point of the cross. If you're really only happy when you're miserable in some way, then in all sincerity I have to say that sounds like something that needs to be cured. Cures are available. They go with that injustice.

Thomas, incidentally, was not being a skeptic. He was following instructions. Jesus had told them earlier not to believe it when they heard, "There is Christ!" since there would be many false christs.

It's a question of who you believe, I suppose. I put no faith in a book, myself. We were never told that the gates of hell would never prevail against a book. Faith need not be blind. I hope mine isn't. It's important to walk around with your eyes open.

You're right about the end conditions of the game, though. I'd prefer it never ended either, even if I differ from you about how I might expect that to come about.

[Tom Mazanec]

Actually, it went something like "Thou art Peter, and on this Rock I will found my Church, and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it."
Yes, I am a Catholic. So sue me

[Doink]

Thomas, incidentally, was not being a skeptic. He was following instructions. Jesus had told them earlier not to believe it when they heard, "There is Christ!" since there would be many false christs.

Hmm. And what of claims that say Judas was given instructions as well?

[EdBecerra]

Ed, you seem to be assuming that we would not be mere annoyances to the post-Singularity machines. Why should they buy us off? Do we buy off the armadillos, or do we just drive over them? Do we buy off vermin, or do we poison them? It actually seems to me that organic life is exceptionally easy to kill, especially species that take upwards of 15 years at minimum per generation.

True of the armor plated rats, but not of feral cats, coyotes, squirrels, et cetera... there's even a rather fascinating Discovery channel special detailing all the various life forms, starting with rats, who've made the human race their primary supporter, and whom we can kill as individuals, but can't seem to ever eradicate the species.

I have no idea what would be valuable to a machine in any detail, but they will need resources to maintain themselves. These necessarily become valuable. It is dificult to conceive of a situation where they did not require at least some of the same resources as we did. When it comes to competition for them, we would definitely be the losers.

I'll grant you that, but then again, it's a BIG damn galaxy out there, and an even bigger universe. Lots of matter. And if some recent thought on the subject is correct, energy won't be a problem - it's been suggested there are anentropic levels of reality. From our tiny point of view, we'd be sticking an "extension cord into God", as a friend of mine put it in a fanfic. Unlimited power on any scale that's short of Creation itself.

Then again, the theorists could be wrong.

Would it be an injustice for you to get into heaven? I suppose -- perhaps even nearly as big an injustice as it would be for me. We prefer to call it "mercy" though. It was the whole point of the cross. If you're really only happy when you're miserable in some way, then in all sincerity I have to say that sounds like something that needs to be cured. Cures are available. They go with that injustice.

Eh, you miss my point. I get my pleasure from anticipation. The EVENT itself bores me to tears. The WAITING for my new computer was positively orgasmic, it's final arrival was a seriously depressive let-down.

Arrival at my destination bores me, the JOURNEY is the excitement.

I'm not sure, but I think Spider Robinson was quoting someone else in his "Callahan's Bar" series when he said that the true meaning of life was "Do the next thing". The next pizza, the one I HAVEN'T eaten yet, is the one that tastes the best. Once I have eaten it, it doesn't taste nearly as good.

"ANNNNN-TI-CI-PAAAAA-TION, It's making me wait, it's SLOOOOOW gooood..."

The pleasure's in the pain. And the pain is the pleasure.

That's not a sickness that needs cured, that's the natural state of the hairless ape.

It's a question of who you believe, I suppose. I put no faith in a book, myself. We were never told that the gates of hell would never prevail against a book. Faith need not be blind. I hope mine isn't. It's important to walk around with your eyes open.

*shrugs* Don't believe in trust or faith. I'm always suspicious.

You're right about the end conditions of the game, though. I'd prefer it never ended either, even if I differ from you about how I might expect that to come about.

It's the struggle I find enjoyable. If there's no struggle, nothing to push against, no one to fight, nothing to strive for, no threat at my back to keep me going forward, what's the point?

You reach the FINAL finish line, and just sit around for eternity? BOOOORING. Now, to someone from oh, 6K years ago, used to the old "work from sunup to sundown just to keep from starving, and dying old and worn out by the age of 35-40", yeah, sitting around on their arse for eternity being pampered would probably be paradise.

Just not for me.

[Acolyte]

True of the armor plated rats, but not of feral cats, coyotes, squirrels, et cetera... there's even a rather fascinating Discovery channel special detailing all the various life forms, starting with rats, who've made the human race their primary supporter, and whom we can kill as individuals, but can't seem to ever eradicate the species.

But the larger predators are very often endangered. We are a larger predator. We are not rats, or cats, or squirrels,and our life cycle is not similar to theirs. We do not become fertile before we're a year old. We're born helpless, dependent on our parents until we're over a decade old. Even fully functional adults are dependent on society. (The true loner is a very rare anomaly; humans are inherently social creatures.) If the geneticists are right, we were already nearly wiped out once. It could happen again, and for reasons other than this.

I'll grant you that, but then again, it's a BIG damn galaxy out there, and an even bigger universe. Lots of matter.

Yes. Lots of matter we can't get to or is not economical to retrieve -- by which I mean it requires more resources to go get them than can be gotten. The Singularity does not necessarily imply easy space travel, which may well be physically impossible.

And if some recent thought on the subject is correct, energy won't be a problem - it's been suggested there are anentropic levels of reality. From our tiny point of view, we'd be sticking an "extension cord into God", as a friend of mine put it in a fanfic. Unlimited power on any scale that's short of Creation itself.

Then again, the theorists could be wrong.

That it's wrong is likely. Or it's a level of reality that's inaccessible. Physics has a way of ensuring that the universe continues to work as it is, and thermodynamics is a very strict cop.

(snippage)

The pleasure's in the pain. And the pain is the pleasure.

That's not a sickness that needs cured, that's the natural state of the hairless ape.

I disagree that masochism is our natural state. Nor do I agree that achievement of a goal is inevitably disappointing. That sounds very much like a disorder to me.

*shrugs* Don't believe in trust or faith. I'm always suspicious.

You have said things in this very thread that contradict this.

It's the struggle I find enjoyable. If there's no struggle, nothing to push against, no one to fight, nothing to strive for, no threat at my back to keep me going forward, what's the point?

Who said there will be nothing driving us forward and no growth or progress? We're not talking about a silly caricature of fluffy clouds and harps here, but about participation in the living energies of God, becoming to a degree gods ourselves. We will never exhaust God; there will always be more of him yet to be understood and revealed. Lewis had it right in The Great Divorce and The Last Battle. So did Tolkien in Leaf by Niggle. It's an endless journey.

[Acolyte]

Hmm. And what of claims that say Judas was given instructions as well?

What of it? There were many gnostic and apocryphal gospels floating around in the second century. That one more has recently been discovered is neither surprising nor alarming. Some of them are downright silly, like Jesus fanfic or something. Google for the Infancy Gospel of Thomas if you want to see what I mean.

Actually, it went something like "Thou art Peter, and on this Rock I will found my Church, and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it."

Not sure what this is a response to, so I'll assume it was about my remark about Thomas. I had Mt 24:23 and Mk 13:5-6 in mind. Peter himself had yet to be reinstated from his denial at the time of Thomas' expression of unbelief. (Viz the triple reconciliation of John 21:15-19.)

[Wanderwolf]

You reach the FINAL finish line, and just sit around for eternity? BOOOORING. Now, to someone from oh, 6K years ago, used to the old "work from sunup to sundown just to keep from starving, and dying old and worn out by the age of 35-40", yeah, sitting around on their arse for eternity being pampered would probably be paradise.

Just not for me.

You must be an aficionado of Twain... you both have the same idea of Heaven.

But no, Heaven is an individual matter. Nobody finds Heaven in a cookie-cutter existence; like punishment, reward must be suited to the individual, or it is a waste.

You want a struggle, Kickaha? Try being the angel assigned to guide an inventor to the ONE way his invention will work, knowing you have to keep him going through thousands of failures. THAT is a struggle for you.

Yours truly,

The wolfish,

Wanderer

[AYBABTU]

<insert bashing of head here>All I wanted to know was if humans on the other side of the mistwall had reached our point in technology yet. That's it, bottom line. And THIS turns up. Sheesh. I REALLY need to learn when to keep my friggin' mouth shut!

[Acolyte]

SURELY you didn't expect a thread to stay on topic! You got a good page and a half of relevant discussion before it spun madly off course, including a nice bit of perspective from Wanderwolf, so that's something I suppose.

I suppose the answer is, who knows? There's good reason to think they might have, but there's also good reason to think they haven't. We'll find out before long, and Ralph has no reason to tell us before we find out in the story.

[AYBABTU]

Still, I need something to think about till we get there. But really, once again, human mercenaries armed with choppers, tanks, M-16s, frag grenades, shotguns, demo charges and those jeeps with guns on top!

[Wanderwolf]

Still, I need something to think about till we get there. But really, once again, human mercenaries armed with choppers, tanks, M-16s, frag grenades, shotguns, demo charges and those jeeps with guns on top!

Eek! Um, no. At least not at first, okay?:) Sirius-ly, as Quentyn first ventures out, a modern experience would have him first meeting the local humans... since it's been established that the Seven Villages are in a swampy area, and given that Rac Con Daimh rather blatantly resemble raccoons, we can assume New World. That means either Lousiana or Florida.

Great, either he meets the backwoods of the bayou or "It's a Small, Small World". At least in the bayou he could hide... Disney doesn't allow costumes to be worn by their customers and he's much too small to be a Cast Member.

Language thought: Three hundred years ago, if you drank an All Nations, you might cast up your accounts and be Admiral of the Narrow Seas. Your fellow would likely take the owl, swear like a cutter and call you a dog booby... if he didn't send you to the Diet of Worms. And if that's a Banbury story to you, then you don't know B from a bull's foot.

All of that is common, ordinary slang from the 17th century, taken from the 18th-Century Slang Dictionary. Slang changes constantly; while some terms have stayed (gibberish, nab), others have gone with the wind (beargered, hop the twig).

And that's without allowing for the printing back then... when an "s" was printed like a cursive "f" to make it stand out on a broadsheet and distinguish it from a "z". Thuf, affuming your underftanding if ftandard if fimply filly, yef?

Yourf... er, Yours in history,

The linguistic,

Wanderer

[BrockthePaine]

And that's without allowing for the printing back then... when an "s" was printed like a cursive "f" to make it stand out on a broadsheet and distinguish it from a "z". Thuf, affuming your underftanding if ftandard if fimply filly, yef?

The reason the "f" was substituted for the "s" was because of moveable-block printing machines. The printer would run out of "S"s, since its one of the most common letters, and thus he would insert the "F"s earlier in the document since they looked similar, and save the "S"s for later on down the page. If you read the documents closely you will see that they do not substitute the letters all the way through (at least in most cases I have seen).

And why can I not type apostraphes in this text box? Every time I hit the apostraphy key I get the text search menu. And it only happens on this forum!

[BrockthePaine]

I yeah, I want my own lux railgun. Simply get the lux to act like a really powerful localized magnet when the trigger is pulled, and then slip a little metal bullet in there... whammo! Automatic rifle time!

[Acolyte]

The reason the "f" was substituted for the "s" was because of moveable-block printing machines. The printer would run out of "S"s, since its one of the most common letters, and thus he would insert the "F"s earlier in the document since they looked similar, and save the "S"s for later on down the page.

Um. Not quite.

[BrockthePaine]

The reason the "f" was substituted for the "s" was because of moveable-block printing machines. The printer would run out of "S"s, since its one of the most common letters, and thus he would insert the "F"s earlier in the document since they looked similar, and save the "S"s for later on down the page.

Um. Not quite.

I was taught otherwise in my typography and design class. I'll certainly accept that the medial s was be used the way you mention - though I've never heard of it before now. And unfortunately I can't get a cite of what my teacher said to see whether he was accurate or not.

Ah, all the things they didn't teach us in school...