Marksmanship 101

[RHJunior]

GUN CONTROL:

The belief that a 100 pound woman should fend off a 250 pound rapist with her bare hands.

The conviction that a man who will grab at a gun that is pointed at his face will stand there and let you dial the police on a cell phone.

The dogma that armed guards should protect banks, but mothers should defend their children with nothing.

The certainty that dialing 911 is any more effective than dialing Dial-A-Prayer.

The delusion that a cop will arrive BEFORE the attacker has killed you.

The fairy tale that a politician is taking away your firearms to make you SAFER.

[Kitwulfen]

A Human Right.

[StrangeWulf13]

An execellent resource, kitwulfen, especially for those who want to lecture on why gun control is a bad idea. It gets down to the bare facts, and uses common sense reasoning to appeal to intelligent minds.

The martial arts article is particularly interesting. Some people think that you can learn a martial art and never have to pick up a gun. This is true; if you train hard enough and dedicate yourself to a practical form of self defense, you might not need a gun. After all, some crooks ain't so good at aiming for the target. Drive-by shootings have been dropped by some for their "inaccuracy" in favor of walking up and shooting someone.

Anyway... the fact remains that there may be some situations where having a gun would be to your advantage, even if you have advanced martial arts training. Your fists usually don't snap off your hands and hit someone across the room, now do they? And there are some martial arts instructors who do encourage or even practice the art of fine marksmanship themselves. Heck, if I'm not mistaken, the guy who founded the art I'm studying likes to shoot a few rounds on his annual visits here! Imagine that, one of the last true Okinawan masters, a short Japanese man who can kill with his hands...

...and he still shoots a gun. *shrugs* Not what one would expect, is it? Least not if you watch all them Hollywood movies.

Now... my point with all this is I think that it'd be a good idea to take some martial arts while you're learning to shoot. The training gives you self-control, which is important while learning any kind of self-defense, whether hand-to-hand or point-and-click. I would encourage any of you who want to learn shooting to also pick up a good, practical martial art. Not only does it give you execellent self-control, but it comes in handy for those times you forget to reload, or the bad guys get too close.

'Course, on that point, even boxing might be a good one to choose, so long as it's something you can learn to protect yourself should your gun fail. Plus, I don't think many crooks who get shot at expect the equivilent of Muhammed Ali or Jackie Chan behind the gun...

[Bigdude]

There are two ways to control ammo costs:

1) Reload. This is tricky and not safe unless you're willing to read at least one full reloading manual cover-to-cover - very technical and dry material. Unless you're motivated to do that, don't even think about it. The amount of care and caution involved in both researching the gear and techniques and then performing those actions correctly every time is not for those who are sloppy and/or tend to take shortcuts in life. M'kay?

2) Even cheaper if you're going to shoot a lot: get two guns, one of the type and caliber you really want/need and a second that works the same way but is set up for 22LR ammo. 22LR ("Long Rifle") rimfire ammo is VERY cheap. $10 for a brick (500 rounds) is typical.

Look, a brand new box of practice-grade centerfire handgun ammo will run you $8 for 50 rounds on the lowest end (38Spl/9mm), to around $15 for a box of 50 for higher-end calibers like the 40S&W, etc. Real combat/hunting grade hollowpoints often run $20 for a box of *20* but you don't usually buy huge amounts of those so it ain't such a big deal.

Handloading can drop your cost for a box of 50 practice-grade centerfires down to around $4.

Rifle ammo is sometimes more than handgun ammo, sometimes less - if your rifle is set up for a common military caliber you can sometimes get bulk military surplus stuff pretty cheap as governments rotate it out of their arsenals. Not just the US gov't - check places like ammoman.com or Southern Ohio Guns and you'll see they get batches of military-grade ammo from all sorts of odd places...Greece, South Africa, Argentina, you name it . Or old Soviet/Chinese stock for guns in their calibers.

If your rifle is NOT a common military caliber, whoa nelly, prices for fodder can get downright insane depending on what it is. Really weird stuff like 45/90 or something, $5 - per bullet. Ow. Time to get into reloading or don't even think about it!

This is why you sometimes see very odd things indeed just to keep ammo costs low. Example: CZ makes a line of mid-sized bolt-action deer rifles that are just perfect for the North American market. 5rd magazines, classic styling, nothing at all "combat looking"...except they're set up to eat the same ammo as an AK47. Why? Not because the round is all that potent, it's because that ammo can be had dirt cheap and it's plenty potent enough for deer. It's got ballistics just like the old 30-30 people have been hunting with for over 100 years except since the 30-30 isn't a military caliber and there's no massive supplies of cheap imports, the ammo costs 5x as much as AK47 fodder (technically the 7.62x39).

[Zobeid]

2) Even cheaper if you're going to shoot a lot: get two guns, one of the type and caliber you really want/need and a second that works the same way but is set up for 22LR ammo.

For many people 22 Long Rifle will be the caliber they really want and need. They're fine for plinking, target shooting, small game hunting, and some short-range pest (or "varmint") control. Although they aren't combat weapons, they can be used for self-defense in a pinch. It's the world's most versatile and popular caliber.

[BrockthePaine]

Although she is not against my learning how to shoot a gun, she will, never, ever let me own one as long as I live with her.

My poor mother told me that too. It had no effect.

Of course, my dad was a big help to her. I started showing off my first .22, and he nods and says "I'd like to have an M16 like they had when I was in the Army."

A particularly striking point was that if you should accidentally shoot someone, it will haunt you for the rest of your life. If you shoot someone you expect to attack you, only to discover it was a relative who dropped by for an unexpected visit, well, sucks to be you, then. She told me about people who get careless with their guns, leaving them for their children to discover, that that scenario happens quite often, in fact. Finally, she noted that in the hands of the inexperienced a gun can actually be quite painful. Let's say a woman was attacked in her home. She had a gun, but couldn't use it, so her attacker grabbed it and turned it on her. Bang.

Sounds like you might benefit from reading over http://www.guncite.com/. [/url]

[StrangeWulf13]

Hello, is there a newbie on the forum? Exxxxcelent...

Welcome to the Asylum! You'll find your free straight jacket in your room, along with the complimentary abestos suit! And please, if you must eat, don't feed Solidus.

Have fun! We hope you enjoy your stay! You're going to be here a while...

[Doink]

Cool. Another new guy. Feel free to let yourself go, but remember: Liberals will be shot (or flamed, whichever sounds more reasonable).

[Sharuuk]

A particularly striking point was that if you should accidentally shoot someone, it will haunt you for the rest of your life. If you shoot someone you expect to attack you, only to discover it was a relative who dropped by for an unexpected visit, well, sucks to be you, then.

Your Mother, sadly is parroting all the same old anti-gun pablum that I've heard for years as the "enlightened" reasons for not owning or having anything to do with a firearm.

To the first part.

If you accidently hit and killed a pedestrian with your car, will you somehow be less "haunted" for the rest of your life than if you'd accidently killed them with a gun? An accidental human death at your hands is still a human death at your hands. The mechanism of their demise is irrelevant.....dead is dead. It'll follow you to your grave.

She told me about people who get careless with their guns, leaving them for their children to discover, that that scenario happens quite often, in fact.

I would suggest that she check with the Nation Safety Council before making blanket statements like that.....she might be surprised to find that childrens' accidental death at home by firearm are at an all time 50+ year low. MOF on the top 25 list of ways kids die at home, firearms are number 21 I'm pretty sure. The only reason it seems so prevalent is that the media make such a issue of it.....and have been known to deliberately leave out pertainent, relevant details just to get thieir own anti-gun agenda pushed a bit further.......seen it done and can prove every word I've just posted.

And just because it a relative, doesn't mean that they can't be a rapist or criminal....so that particular statement is purely rhetorical. And what relative unexpectedly drops by and tries to come thru a window or back door late at night with no phone call? Again, more scare mongering rhetoric.

Finally, she noted that in the hands of the inexperienced a gun can actually be quite painful. Let's say a woman was attacked in her home. She had a gun, but couldn't use it, so her attacker grabbed it and turned it on her. Bang.

So ask her what kind of "woman" would buy a defensive handgun and NOT learn how to use it? Ask her to find any documented cases from any law enforcement agency, you can ask for the stats and they'll usually comply, ANY solid evidence at all where a mugger or rapist actually took a defensive handgun away from their intended victim and used it against them EXCEPT ON TV or as related from the "Brady Bunch".

Not one point your mother tried to make is rooted in anything other than an emotional rhetoric. All I and the other forumites have given you is substantiated, documented facts and references to back up our position. Can your mom do the same? And again, NOT throwing rocks, just requesting facts to back up the statements.

Rest assured that neither I nor any other members here would consider trying to tell you HOW to think, we just want you TO think. Think rationally, and unemotionally. The last thing the anti-gun crowd wants you to do, is to think about what you're told, they just want you to react emotionally withOUT thinking. This is how they try to stampede voters to browbeat lawmakers into passing stupid laws that have no effect whatsoever on criminal behavior but make it that much harder for peaceful, law abiding citizens to acquire, possess or use a gun.

An example of this kind of process is the ridiculous "enhanced" penalties for using a semi-automatic firearm in a crime. This goes back to my first statement at the beginning of this post......are you somehow less dead if I shoot you in the head with a .38 snubby revolver rather than a 9mm semiauto? You mean I'll serve a less severe sentence if I kill someone with a revolver and not a semiauto? What manner of legislative stupidity is this???? It's what I've been battling for 30yrs and will continue to do so to my dying breath. And to try and educate not 'enlighten' people like you, new to guns and shooting.

S'aaruuk [/i]

[BrockthePaine]

Cool. Another new guy. Feel free to let yourself go, but remember: Liberals will be shot (or flamed, whichever sounds more reasonable).

Hello, is there a newbie on the forum? Exxxxcelent...

Welcome to the Asylum! You'll find your free straight jacket in your room, along with the complimentary abestos suit! And please, if you must eat, don't feed Solidus.

Have fun! We hope you enjoy your stay! You're going to be here a while...

Pleasure to be here. I'll decline the straightjacket, thanks, it messes me up when I'm taking down my M1. I guess since people welcomed me I'd best introduce myself - I'm a graphic designer/web designer/technical writer with a very big interest in military firearms (which is why I started posting); I'm also an amateur historian and (unplublished, so far) science fiction and alternate history writer. Blame RH for bringing me here - I just can't stay away from a good webcomic.

[Jamestox]

Well, I had another talk with my dad, and later one with my mom. The one point my dad raised was an issue about money. He said that firearms and ammunition are not cheap, and I doubt that I'll be able to pay for this hobby myself. Airguns, however, are a different story.

Firearms can be expensive or inexpensive, depending on what you get. A used Marlin model 60 or model 81T is available nearly everywhere (check pawn shops) for less than $75 and with a few exceptions are good, solid rifles in .22lr caliber. .22 caliber ammunition is available in "bargain packs" of 500 rounds at WalMart, Kmart, etc., for about $10-15. That "brick" of .22 ammo will give you plenty of fun and practice for the dollar and is a great way to get introduced to shooting. These rifles or the aforementioned Ruger 10/22 can also be shot on indoor pistol ranges, where other, more powerful cartridges aren't allowed. On the other hand, an AR variant can run from $650 to more than $1200, and the 5.56/.223 ammo it eats costs significantly more than the humble .22lr. You also can't usually shoot the 5.56/.223 on most indoor ranges.

My mother was concerned, but not as closed-minded as I had anticipated. She asked about my mental state of being, citing teens who get depressed and shoot themselves without realizing the consequences of their actions. Although she is not against my learning how to shoot a gun, she will, never, ever let me own one as long as I live with her.

Her house, her rules. It does no good to buck the system unless you can get her on your side by showing her how responsible you are as a person. The simple fact that she showed some open-mindedness is reason for hope, but don't push - and even invite her to come with you to the range to supervise your sessions; it can be a really good icebreaker.

She has shot a gun before, by the way.
A particularly striking point was that if you should accidentally shoot someone, it will haunt you for the rest of your life. If you shoot someone you expect to attack you, only to discover it was a relative who dropped by for an unexpected visit, well, sucks to be you, then. She told me about people who get careless with their guns, leaving them for their children to discover, that that scenario happens quite often, in fact.

This is why gun safety should be taught to not only gun owners, but everyone who has children. It helps to keep your guns in a safe or lockbox, but what happens when the children find a dropped or discarded firearm in the woods or a nearby park? They need to be taught what to do (even by gun-fearing liberals). Your first step as a responsible shooter and gun owner-to-be is to memorize the four basic gun safety rules already quoted:
1. All guns are to be assumed to be loaded and should ALWAYS be pointed in a safe direction.
2. Never point a firearm at anything you don't wish to see destroyed.
3. Keep your finger out of the trigger guard and off the trigger until your sights rest on the target and you're ready to fire.
4. ALWAYS know your target and what is beyond it.

Finally, she noted that in the hands of the inexperienced a gun can actually be quite painful. Let's say a woman was attacked in her home. She had a gun, but couldn't use it, so her attacker grabbed it and turned it on her. Bang.

True. That is why owning a firearm carries a high moral responsibility. The one rule about carrying for self-defense is, "Don't pull the gun unless you are FULLY READY to take someone's life." A gun as a threat can deter a crime, but the person holding the gun HAS to be ready to make good on the threat and use it in case the attacker calls it a bluff. This is where training and practice becomes a NECESSITY.

I haven't yet told my parents about this forum's effect on my decision on this issue yet. I may have to show them this thread in order to get my point across, as I have trouble with oral debates.

You could do that, but it would be better to formulate your own reasons and simply state them without engaging in debate. Say your mind, give your own reasons (if some are based on our posts, well, you're welcome to our ideas) and discuss - not debate - the issue. They are still your parents, legally they are still responsible for protecting and leading you, and they are in charge. You may not like to hear that, but it's true.

But if I tell them about you, I'm worried that they'll jump to the conclusion that you're coercing me to do something I don't truly want to do. That all of this conservative influence is changing me for the worse. I don't want to be forced away from this place. I like you guys, even if you are a bunch of right-wing nutjobs.

Again, formulate your own ideas and share them with your parents. Be open to compromise; invite your mother and father to the range to "supervise" your practice. Make them aware that you want to be a safe and responsible shooter by telling them you are focusing on learning firearm safety before you ever go to the range. Even offer buy them inexpensive ear protection and safety glasses if they will accompany you to the range. Show them you want to do it the right and responsible way. You might be amazed at the results. Maybe I'll see you on the range someday soon. In the meantime, you can look up my posts at Rimfire Central.

JTox (Owner: Stevens double-barrel "coach gun", Winchester 37, Winchester 140 Ranger, Winchester 190, Winchester 62A, RGI 22, Marlin 60, Taurus 62)

[T.s.a.o]

"...And remember 'There's no more important safety rule, than wearing these: Safety Glasses'"[/url]

[BrockthePaine]

"...And remember 'There's no more important safety rule, than wearing these: Safety Glasses'"

You've got that right. A friend of mine had his dad's old .22 pistol (which his dad had swapped for a broken radio when he was a boy scout) and was shooting it... and the tinkertoy pistol done blew up on him. Slide hit my friend right between the eyes - another inch and he would have gotten that gash on his eye and not his nose. I think he was stupid to be shooting that little pistol to begin with - it had a history of flying apart anyway.

First gun I ever fired was a Marlin-60 - a good quality rifle, IMHO. Ammo's cheap and everything - I use mine primarily for warming up at the range.

If you find you like shooting and already have your first .22, might I suggest a Mosin-Nagant 91/30? Old military bolt action rifle (Russian WWII) runs about $70 or less (I've seen them as low as $40 at the store). Ammo's not expensive either ($60 will get you an 800-round can).

All this talk of guns made me decide to take my new .45 to the range on the way home from work...

[Tom Mazanec]

The four rules remind me of a Dragnet episode I once saw. Three kids found an abandoned gun. Smart Kid says "Let's take the clip out and we can play cops and robbers with it". Smart Kid forgets about the one bullet already in front of the firing pin ready to go.
He kills one of the other kids...

[Doink]

Hmm. Well, I'm not so sure about my debate skills. I was going to print a copy of this thread and show it to my parents, but now I'm not so sure about that.

Your arguments are so well formulated, though! It would be a shame not to share them...

Anyways, another question I want to ask is reading material. Reading is one thing I excel at, after all. I checked out the Shooter's Bible 2001 edition from the library, but I was in a hurry and didn't know what sort of content it had (not for newbies). Is there some sort of 'For Dummies' book I can look at, or would it be too [sarcastic voice]'controversial'[/sarcastic voice] for that company to publish that material?

(The more I hang out here, the more I learn to despise political correctness.)

[The JAM]

[...unWARP!!!]

Good evening.

(The more I hang out here, the more I learn to despise political correctness.)

Hey, we do our best

¡Zacatepóngolas!

Until next time, remember:

I

AM

THE

J.A.M. (a.k.a. Numbuh i: "Just because I'm imaginary doesn't mean I don't exist")

Good evening.

[WARP!!!]

[BrockthePaine]

Anyways, another question I want to ask is reading material. Reading is one thing I excel at, after all. I checked out the Shooter's Bible 2001 edition from the library, but I was in a hurry and didn't know what sort of content it had (not for newbies). Is there some sort of 'For Dummies' book I can look at, or would it be too [sarcastic voice]'controversial'[/sarcastic voice] for that company to publish that material?

I don't know of any single book that comprehensively addresses firearms. I have a few different links that I can provide to you for your reading pleasure...

Data
http://www.world.guns.ru/main-e.htm - Site run by a Russian, this is one of the most comprehensive databases of 20th Century firearms.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/ - Site detailing the various military surplus weapons from around the world - a personal favorite.

Maintenance
http://www.gameandfishmag.com/hunting/g ... aa116902a/

Laws
http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/StateLaws.aspx?ST=NC - You said Raleigh, so here's the ownership laws of NC.

General
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm - Generally, a very neutral article discussing generic history, a few basic terms, etc. This should probably be the first thing you read.

http://myweb.cebridge.net/paines4/shootingglossary.html - My own website, with a glossary of widely-used gun terms.

And, should you have any questions, I'd be more than happy to answer them.

[Sharuuk]

Doink....

Betcha didn't expect this much help or info from such a diverse group when you originally asked didja?

(The more I hang out here, the more I learn to despise political correctness.)

Like JAM said...We do our part....and enjoy doing so.

S'aaruuk

[Madmoonie]

Doink....

Betcha didn't expect this much help or info from such a diverse group when you originally asked didja?

(The more I hang out here, the more I learn to despise political correctness.)

Like JAM said...We do our part....and enjoy doing so.

S'aaruuk

Dude....I totally disagree with them all. You should totally go for the strawberry jam with the penguin option.



I just said that to be weird.

[Sharuuk]

Dude....I totally disagree with them all. You should totally go for the strawberry jam with the penguin option.

I just said that to be weird.

Consider your effort successful.

S'aaruuk