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The tomb is empty! Praise GOD! HE loves me!

....I dunno if I should say anything about this or not. Easter isn't a day you should be celebrating really.....

Ok, I gotta ask....why not?

probably something to do with it having pagan roots and how it's only a holiday because of it's fertility symbolisms that appealed to the romans at the time and in order to become more accepted in the world it was adopted by the church and etc.

that or because it causes tooth decay

Madmoonie wrote:Ok, I gotta ask....why not?

I suspect he is taking the position Easter is a pagan holiday that has been incorporated into the Christian calendar. (ditto for Christmas)

There are two views on this:

1. These holidays should not be celebrated by Christians since they are basically pagan holidays that were taken over and reinterprited by the church. As a result there is still too much of a pagan influence (e.g. Easter bunny, etc.) associated with them to allow them to be valid. Easter itself is a pagan term and not of Christian origin.

2. Even though #1 may be true they still celebrate true Christian beliefs and from their early origins are valid celebrations.

I understand the concerns of #1 but tend toward #2 myself. If Jewish celebrations that resulted from monumental historical events (e.g. Passover) were celebrated by Jesus as valid I believe it is valid for us to celebrate the monumental events of the incarnation (Christmas) and resurrection (Easter). In this I believe the early church was correct in proclaming these holidays.

Well, if it's the Pesach, I'm all for it. And yes, we had a Resurrection Sunday service today, even with the kids.

Hmm, from the Gospels we know Jesus was crucified just before Passover, which falls in the spring and lets us nail down a date. There is some confusion going from the Jewish calander (which is still used for their holidays and runs 340 odd days IIRC), and the modern Greogorian one but that is a matter of a couple weeks, not months.

for me it's the meaning I want to celebrate it for that matters, not what it origionally meant. Easter means to me a particular emphasis on the savior. and that to me is what is important.

The date is of little consequence. What happened is....

The idea of using the days and seasons as a sort of 365 lesson plan catechesis system has a long history and development that actually starts *before* the Bible gets written, much less the question of which books are canonic is settled. It's inconceivable that the resurrection shouldn't be on that lesson plan somewhere as it's the center point of christianity. If you don't like the Western name of Easter, the Eastern one, Pascha is certainly available for use.

The fact of the resurrection is what's being celebrated, using this day (or next Sunday if you're on modified Julian time like I am) to especially focus on that miracle and what it all means is not pagan at all, merely accessing one of the oldest and most successful christian lesson plans of all time, the apostolic religious calendar. Hopefully, very soon (i.e. 2008), we're all going to settle down to a universal Easter date. What's really fun is that the 1.1B Catholics seem to be bending to the 300M Orthodox on this one.

Madmoonie wrote:Ok, I gotta ask....why not?

Two reasons:

One: It's an amalgamation of pagon and christianity things. Which right off the bat makes it false religion, which the bible says stay away from. No if, ands or buts about it.

Two: No where in the bible does it say to celebrate or hold a memorial for Jesus's ressurection for it holds no meaning. Jesus said to hold a special celebration in rememberance of him and the sacrifice he was about to make (the last supper). He said to keep doing that once a year on Nisan/Nissan (month on Hebrew callendar) the 14th.

This year that date falled on the same day as passover, (If you're of the belief that passover starts at sundown the day before the first full moon after the spring equinox.), now I'm not sure if this happens every year. But this last supper memorial superceeds passover, because Jesus fullfilled what it represented as well as most of the other Judaism practices. Basicly Judaism 'evolved' into Christianity.

Anyways, to find the date this memorial should take place on, count 14 days forward from the closest new moon to the spring equinox. I do not know how they calculate Easter, but they used to use the methoid above before it was changed to always fall on a Sunday. Which is going against what the bible says and could proball be considered false religion.

Sorry if I rained on your parade Madmoonie.

You do realize that, according to that logic, we should also not celebrate Christmas/Yule, Halloween/Samhain, or St. Valentine's Day/Lupercalia, right?

It's true enough that all of these have roots on older, pagan celebrations. But they were co-opted by the church as it grew and sought out more members.

Easter, for example, still bears the name and symbol of the pagan goddess in whose honor it was originally held: Oestre, a fertility goddess (thus the symbolism of eggs and rabbits). But Christianity has made it its own.

Yours truly,

The wolfish,

Wanderer

Agreed, if one really wanted to get nit-picky about it, there are only about 365 days per year, in just the past 3000 years of recorded history, how many cultures have come and gone? Every one had its own set of holidays, calendars, etc.

I would daresay that with enough digging one could find a non-Christian celebration on any given day of a calendar year. Symbolism in those days as well would be irrelevant, what is one celebrating in one's heart?

I see your point, Schwepie regarding that Christ made no mention of celebrating his resurrection, or ascention, but I also see no specific prohibitions against it either.

The resurrection is so critical to Christianity as this was Jesus's ultimate credential. He laid down His life, and He picked it up again. Without the resurrection, we are following a dead Rabbi, who, in all honesty got what he deserved for making unwarranted claims. Now we have undeniable proof that Jesus was who He said He was. The sacrifice on the cross is valid for the remission of my sins. I hang my head in shame on Good Friday, as this is the payment, in blood, for my iniquity, but I raise it in praise on Easter Sunday because....

Tetelesti!!!

The debt has been paid, and I am free!

I'm sorry if this is nitpicking about words, but there seem to be some errors here...

Shwepie wrote:Two: No where in the bible does it say to celebrate or hold a memorial for Jesus's ressurection for it holds no meaning. Jesus said to hold a special celebration in rememberance of him and the sacrifice he was about to make (the last supper). He said to keep doing that once a year on Nisan/Nissan (month on Hebrew callendar) the 14th.

Luke 22:19 "And he took bread, gave thanks and said, 'This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."
This says nothing about when or how often to eat and drink in remembrance - just to do it.
As to the Resurrection - it is crucially meaningful.
1 Cor. 15:17 "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins."

Shwepie wrote:One: It's an amalgamation of pagon and christianity things. Which right off the bat makes it false religion, which the bible says stay away from. No if, ands or buts about it.

I could understand different reactions to the pagan elements of current holiday celebrations... my family has just always tried to exclude those from our celebration traditions: we don't use a Christmas tree, but a manger scene instead; we focus our Resurrection Day celebration around the resurrection (and call it Resurrection Day); we don't really touch Halloween at all. But that's us (and really established by my dad). But in the end, I think the issue of the pagan roots of certain traditions bears a lot of similarity in its central issues to the question of eating meat offered to idols discussed in I Cor. 8 (just gonna let folks read it if they wish). In the end, it's not about the pagan elements, but about loving God and one another. And God knows the heart.

Shwepie wrote:

Madmoonie wrote:Ok, I gotta ask....why not?

Two reasons:

One: It's an amalgamation of pagon and christianity things. Which right off the bat makes it false religion, which the bible says stay away from. No if, ands or buts about it.

So is paganism a bit like cooties, they get attached to something and you just can't shake them off? Sorry, I can't really go along with that. It gives the pagans too easy a road to manipulate christianity.

Shwepie wrote: Two: No where in the bible does it say to celebrate or hold a memorial for Jesus's ressurection for it holds no meaning. Jesus said to hold a special celebration in rememberance of him and the sacrifice he was about to make (the last supper). He said to keep doing that once a year on Nisan/Nissan (month on Hebrew callendar) the 14th.

This year that date falled on the same day as passover, (If you're of the belief that passover starts at sundown the day before the first full moon after the spring equinox.), now I'm not sure if this happens every year. But this last supper memorial superceeds passover, because Jesus fullfilled what it represented as well as most of the other Judaism practices. Basicly Judaism 'evolved' into Christianity.

Anyways, to find the date this memorial should take place on, count 14 days forward from the closest new moon to the spring equinox. I do not know how they calculate Easter, but they used to use the methoid above before it was changed to always fall on a Sunday. Which is going against what the bible says and could proball be considered false religion.

Sorry if I rained on your parade Madmoonie.

Serious christians who have taken lifelong oaths to serve Christ as priests and monks were discussing and arguing over the calculation of these sorts of dates within a century of Pentacost. The point of such celebrations is not to mechanistically observe a date but to serve in the salvation of souls. The Sabbath was made for man. Man was not made for the Sabbath. Man wasn't made for Pascha either. Pascha was made for man.

Why Sunday? It's because Sunday is the third day, the day of Christ's resurrection after his trials on Calvary. It would be... odd, wouldn't you think, to run through the lesson plan of Christ's arrival in Jerusalem, the events there, and his resurrection not fall on Sunday. It's just not pedagogically sound. The 14th of Nissan goes because maintaining it would be a replication of the very problems the Pharisees succumbed to, a legalism and formalism that hollowed out the love of God and made all empty ritual.

Now a good ritual here or there can be very useful to get people into the habits that are going to make them good christians. If sticking to the 14th of Nissan gets in the way of that, ditch it. At least that was the opinion of the same guys who decided which books go in the Bible and which stay out. I think that lot is pretty reliable on christian pedagogy.

Yay! People disagree with me! Can't have a conversation on forums without a little bit of disagreement.

Wanderwolf:

Yes I do realise that, and I personally do not celebrate them. I haven't for several years.

I beg to differ, Christianity couldn't of made it its own. Neither GOD nor the bible says to celebrate it. The bible, however, says to stay away from false religion and goes into detail what that means. Easter falls into the defenition of false religion. If you are aware of its pagan roots and thus its falsehood, you should not celebrate it.

Tbolt:

There actually is a holiday on everyday of the week in my county, this holds true for most places in America actually. But symbolisim is still important, if the holiday is a religious one or religious in nature. Some people consider birthdays to be religious in nature cause it can be considered a form of worship. I don't think it is, but I am not extreamly well versed in the bible to make such a call.

You spelled my name with a 'c' hehe, you'd be surprised at how many people do that. You are right, there are no restrictions against it. However, the way things are now, it is mingling with pagon things which makes Easter a part of false religion. A part of Babylon the Great Empire, which the bible uses as a symbol for false religion and it clearly states to get out and to stay away from it.

Yes, the ressurection is crucial Christianity and was Jesus's ultimate credential, as well as the many miracles he performed. Now, I personally see nothing wrong with celebrating his ressurection in general. However, most people celebrate this in a manor of false religion, in addition to celebrating it in lieu* of what Jesus said to do.

* = Is that the right word? I'm trying to say they do one, which is okay, but are doing it instead of something else, which is bad.

What's the big red word in your post mean Tbolt? Also, even if the debt has been payed, you aren't automatically free. You must still seek salvation, but you seem like someone that does that already so yay!

Wayfarer:

I am fairly sure it is in the bible that you should only do it once a year. Either Jesus said to do it or Paul did and apostles (Paul were second to Jesus who was second to GOD. So I'd take his word for it. If you give me time I can get better confermation on this then just my mouth shaped orfic.

Yeah the ressurection is cool and I have no problem with celebrating it if they choose to. I congradulate you trying to weed out the bad stuff from your celebrations that is good.

Um...eating meat offered to an idol. After reading it, it sounds like it is bad or a form of idoltary (worship of idols), which the bible says not to do. Also from that chapter I get the feeling you should inform others of your religion that such a thing is bad. But you should not lord it over them or go into a holyer then thou attitude, lest you slip up and then have a greater sin on your hands.

In the end, it is about the pagan roots and about loving GOD and your fellow man. By celebrating a holiday wrapped in false religion, when you are fully aware that it is false religion (according to Christianity). As well as aware that GOD, by virtue of the bible, says not to do this, you are in effect commiting original sin all over again.

Even if you aren't aware of that, it is still a bad thing. But it is true that GOD knows the heart. You will have a chance to alleviate that bad thing if GOD knows your heart holds the slightest sencarity to do so. If not....

TMlutas:

Basicly yes, but that doesn't mean you can't throw something out and start over. It also doesn't give pagans a easy road to manipulate christians, they can always distance themselves from pagans and start over. I am not totally sure if it was the roman empire that mixed pagan and christian customs or if it was the christian churches at the time. But there was a mixture way back when that still exists today.

Not totally sure what to make of your second and third paragaphs or I would comment on them, sorry.

Now for the final one, good rituals are okay, but false religion isn't according to the bible, especially if you know it is false religion. Easter, however, has nothing to do with Nisan 14th or the last supper, it is about the ressurection of Jesus as well as pagan stuff. Any chruch that teaches the celebration of easter is teaching false religion and has already been judged in the wrong according to the bible. Individuals in the chruch still have the chance to get out and away from it, but the orginization itself will be gone in the future.

To All:

I would like to give you all a quick question...or not so quick question:

If I offered you a glass of crystal clear water to you, but before I actually hand it over you clearly see me put a drop of poison into the glass and tell you that it is poison I put into the drink. Would you drink it?

Now please remember, you don't know what type of poison it is, if it is lethal or if the one drop is enough to affect you, do you REALLY wanna chance it?

Okay so that is two questions but still. This is how I view false religion, as a poison contaminating something (glass of water) and you are better off not chancing (drinking) it.

Shwepie wrote:I would like to give you all a quick question...or not so quick question:

If I offered you a glass of crystal clear water to you, but before I actually hand it over you clearly see me put a drop of poison into the glass and tell you that it is poison I put into the drink. Would you drink it?

Now please remember, you don't know what type of poison it is, if it is lethal or if the one drop is enough to affect you, do you REALLY wanna chance it?

Okay so that is two questions but still. This is how I view false religion, as a poison contaminating something (glass of water) and you are better off not chancing (drinking) it.

Jesus is the antidote to the poison of the world. I see the situation in reverse - we have taken pagen celebrations and co-opted them.

<edit> - added link
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=News ... friendly=1

Shwepie wrote:One: It's an amalgamation of pagon and christianity things. Which right off the bat makes it false religion, which the bible says stay away from. No if, ands or buts about it.

NONSENSE!

After 1600 years, this one still brings the house down. Orthodox Christians (who do not celebrate it this year until this coming Sunday) hear this preached every Easter:

The Paschal Sermon of St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople:

If any man be devout and loveth God,
Let him enjoy this fair and radiant triumphal feast!
If any man be a wise servant,
Let him rejoicing enter into the joy of his Lord.

If any have laboured long in fasting,
Let him how receive his recompense.
If any have wrought from the first hour,
Let him today receive his just reward.
If any have come at the third hour,
Let him with thankfulness keep the feast.
If any have arrived at the sixth hour,
Let him have no misgivings;
Because he shall in nowise be deprived therefore.
If any have delayed until the ninth hour,
Let him draw near, fearing nothing.
And if any have tarried even until the eleventh hour,
Let him, also, be not alarmed at his tardiness.

For the Lord, who is jealous of his honour,
Will accept the last even as the first.
He giveth rest unto him who cometh at the eleventh hour,
Even as unto him who hath wrought from the first hour.
And He showeth mercy upon the last,
And careth for the first;
And to the one He giveth,
And upon the other He bestoweth gifts.
And He both accepteth the deeds,
And welcometh the intention,
And honoureth the acts and praises the offering.

Wherefore, enter ye all into the joy of your Lord;
Receive your reward,
Both the first, and likewise the second.
You rich and poor together, hold high festival!
You sober and you heedless, honour the day!
Rejoice today, both you who have fasted
And you who have disregarded the fast.
The table is full-laden; feast ye all sumptuously.
The calf is fatted; let no one go hungry away.
Enjoy ye all the feast of faith:
Receive ye all the riches of loving-kindness.

Let no one bewail his poverty,
For the universal Kingdom has been revealed.
Let no one weep for his iniquities,
For pardon has shown forth from the grave.
Let no one fear death,
For the Saviour's death has set us free.
He that was held prisoner of it has annihilated it.

By descending into Hell, He made Hell captive.
He embittered it when it tasted of His flesh.
And Isaiah, foretelling this, did cry:
Hell, said he, was embittered
When it encountered Thee in the lower regions.

It was embittered, for it was abolished.
It was embittered, for it was mocked.
It was embittered, for it was slain.
It was embittered, for it was overthrown.
It was embittered, for it was fettered in chains.
It took a body, and met God face to face.
It took earth, and encountered Heaven.
It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen.

O Death, where is thy sting?
O Hell, where is thy victory?

Christ is risen, and thou art overthrown!
Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen!
Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice!
Christ is risen, and life reigns!
Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in the grave.
For Christ, being risen from the dead,
Is become the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep.

To Him be glory and dominion
Unto ages of ages.

Amen.

(Note from source website: Rendered in stanza format by M.C. Steenberg. Please feel free to print, copy, distribute and post this text without need for written permission.)

Shwepie wrote:I beg to differ, Christianity couldn't of made it its own. Neither GOD nor the bible says to celebrate it. The bible, however, says to stay away from false religion and goes into detail what that means. Easter falls into the defenition of false religion. If you are aware of its pagan roots and thus its falsehood, you should not celebrate it.

Glad you like the Bible. The same authority by which it was selected and assembled from the much larger corpus of christian books of the time is also the same authority that established Easter. So why is one exercise of that authority valid and the other not? You seem to have a problem...

Shwepie wrote: I am fairly sure it is in the bible that you should only do it once a year. Either Jesus said to do it or Paul did and apostles (Paul were second to Jesus who was second to GOD. So I'd take his word for it. If you give me time I can get better confermation on this then just my mouth shaped orfic.

A little tip. If you're going to go all sola scriptura, it's crucial that you actually use the Bible. I'm pretty sure that neither Paul, any of the other apostles, Jesus, God the Father, or the Holy Spirit have ever said any such thing like we should only celebrate the last supper once a year only.

Shwepie wrote: Basicly yes, but that doesn't mean you can't throw something out and start over. It also doesn't give pagans a easy road to manipulate christians, they can always distance themselves from pagans and start over.

We're supposed to be going out there and converting them from their false beliefs to the true faith, the belief in Christ. There's not going to be a whole lot of conversion if we're always distancing ourselves from them. We have to uphold the truth, that always. This means that there *is* some necessary separation to keep things clear. Too much separation is so easily interpreted as being 'holier than thou', stuck up, or just plain rude, YMMV.

Shwepie wrote: I am not totally sure if it was the roman empire that mixed pagan and christian customs or if it was the christian churches at the time. But there was a mixture way back when that still exists today.

What do you do with the city's pagan temple? If you just plow it under, people will just come to the site and worship out of habit. The early church converted such temples, turning them into Churches and, over time, turned the pernicious habits of the people to good. Some of the harmless stuff stuck around because, frankly, it just wasn't worth the effort.

Shwepie wrote: Not totally sure what to make of your second and third paragaphs or I would comment on them, sorry.

Well, what do you think I'm saying? The point is that all this feast and fast stuff is an ancient school text. It's catechesis woven into the rythms of our daily life. Like all school texts, they have to be set up in a pedagogically sound manner so that the lesson isn't jarring or seems out of place. You can learn to love God in a number of ways. I'm not arguing that you *have* to take part in this particular method. I think it's a bit bold to be attacking one of the oldest method around of teaching christianity.

Shwepie wrote: Now for the final one, good rituals are okay, but false religion isn't according to the bible, especially if you know it is false religion. Easter, however, has nothing to do with Nisan 14th or the last supper, it is about the ressurection of Jesus as well as pagan stuff. Any chruch that teaches the celebration of easter is teaching false religion and has already been judged in the wrong according to the bible. Individuals in the chruch still have the chance to get out and away from it, but the orginization itself will be gone in the future.

I hope you do realize that Nisan is a variable, not a constant and can simply be taken away by a decision of the rabbis of the world. They adjust those calendars on a semi-regular basis. So where are you then with your pharisee-like fixation on Nisan 14 the calendar date? Do you deny the jews the right to shape and reform their own calendar as it pleases them?

Shwepie wrote: I would like to give you all a quick question...or not so quick question:

If I offered you a glass of crystal clear water to you, but before I actually hand it over you clearly see me put a drop of poison into the glass and tell you that it is poison I put into the drink. Would you drink it?

I hope you do realize that you've just described a perfectly ordinary dosing event in homeopathic medicine which very much is about administering very weak doses of all sorts of poisons as medical treatment. In other words, you've left out sufficient context for me to give an honest answer.

Shwepie wrote: Now please remember, you don't know what type of poison it is, if it is lethal or if the one drop is enough to affect you, do you REALLY wanna chance it?

I don't know you from Adam. I do know that Christ exists. How I know is that his Church was founded by the miracle of Pentacost. I know that those apostles elected successors because they provided an example (the first) of the process in the Book of Acts. I know that the Bible was picked and assembled by further successors of those apostles and I know that those successors exist to this day.

Nowadays they're called bishops or eparchs (depending on whether they're drawing from the eastern or western lines). Do I have faith in the continuation of the miracle of Pentacost? Do I believe that the process for electing successors as laid out in the Book of Acts is Godly? It's in the Bible, isn't it? The question for me is why you have so little faith in the Bible as it's actually written.

Shwepie wrote: Okay so that is two questions but still. This is how I view false religion, as a poison contaminating something (glass of water) and you are better off not chancing (drinking) it.

All poison is dose related, that is there is always a safe dose and a dangerous dose for most materials. I understand your position but you've picked a very bad way of putting it.

TMLutas wrote:I hope you do realize that Nisan is a variable, not a constant and can simply be taken away by a decision of the rabbis of the world. They adjust those calendars on a semi-regular basis. So where are you then with your pharisee-like fixation on Nisan 14 the calendar date? Do you deny the jews the right to shape and reform their own calendar as it pleases them?

You're right in principle here, but incorrect in detail. If any group of rabbis tried to eliminate the month Nisan, they'd be roundly ignored. You cannot be an observant Jew and not observe Pesach. (I almost wrote "Pascha", which is the very non-pagan name for Easter, derived from Pesach, used by most of the world.) Pesach must begin on 15 Nisan. (Which is to say, at sundown when our civil calendar date is that corresponding to 14 Nisan for that year.) It's the first month of their lunar year. Eliminating it would be like eliminating January. Except nothing so important happens in January as Pesach.

The lunar year is 354 days long. In gross, the deficit is made up at intervals by adding a month, essentially repeating the last month of the year Adar. There are other adjustments that are periodically made. It is not a simple system, and I refer you here for the details.

However, in support of your point it's worth noting that this was not the system being used in the time of Christ's ministry. 14 Nisan then is not necessarily 14 Nisan now. To be perfectly Pharisaically Quartodeciman about it, you'd have to use the 1st Century AD system, but this is sadly no longer available.

(By the way, in the East a bishop is a bishop, even though "eparchy" had long been the usual word for what is called a "diocese" in English.)