Which side would you join?

[Werekitty]

It is a far better thing for someone to have a mind full of unanswered questions than to have a mind full of unquestioned answers.

One of the most flawed aspects a man could possibly have is the inability to change his mind.

It is good to have an open mind, but beware having one so open that your brains fall out.

Another one of man's flaws is the tendancy to bend at the knee.

[The JAM]

[...unWARP!]

Good evening.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

Hmmm.........

[does some searching]

This is interesting. One of my teachers openly stated that Einstein was a Bible believing Messianic Jew, or at least a full-fledged God fearing one. That, and this quote:

God does not play dice with the universe.

appeared to support what she said. A friend of mine also said that when Einstein was talking to a Catholic (or a Muslim or Hindu, I don't recall), he said, "Your god is too small to have created my universe," and then Einstein would proclaim his faith in the God of Ysrael. Also, in Soviet Russia, Einstein, despite being mostly accurate in his theories, was actively degraded for his beliefs in God, or at least, there were rumors throughout the communist bloc that stated that he was indeed a Christian (from the book "Tortured for Christ")

Now, I found the site that has posted his denial quoted above, and it has a few more that supports it. I don't know if earlier in his life Einstein was an active believer and later rejected Christianity. I'll do a bit more research, but I suppose the final proof won't be known until we reach eternity and see if he's waiting for us in the presence of YHWH.


?Zacatep?ngolas!

Until next time, remember:

I

AM

THE

J.A.M. (a.k.a. Numbuh i: "Just because I'm imaginary doesn't mean I don't exist")

Good evening.

[WARP!]

[RHJunior]

Quite frankly? That denial doesn't sound like him, not in the least. It's not his writing style or his manner of speaking. This dull, colorless denunciation of theism reads like a manifesto written for him by someone else, not the words of the man who said

"Before God we are all equally wise -- and equally foolish."

"I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."

"I want to know the thoughts of God. Everything else is just details."

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."


Sounds like an entirely different man made these quotes, doesn't it.

I would not in the least put it past the typical militant tooth-grinding atheist to write the aforementioned anti-religious quote and attribute it to a man long dead.

[Kerry Skydancer]

[...unWARP!]

Good evening.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

Hmmm.........

[does some searching]

This is interesting. One of my teachers openly stated that Einstein was a Bible believing Messianic Jew, or at least a full-fledged God fearing one. That, and this quote:

God does not play dice with the universe.

appeared to support what she said. A friend of mine also said that when Einstein was talking to a Catholic (or a Muslim or Hindu, I don't recall), he said, "Your god is too small to have created my universe," and then Einstein would proclaim his faith in the God of Ysrael. Also, in Soviet Russia, Einstein, despite being mostly accurate in his theories, was actively degraded for his beliefs in God, or at least, there were rumors throughout the communist bloc that stated that he was indeed a Christian (from the book "Tortured for Christ")

Now, I found the site that has posted his denial quoted above, and it has a few more that supports it. I don't know if earlier in his life Einstein was an active believer and later rejected Christianity. I'll do a bit more research, but I suppose the final proof won't be known until we reach eternity and see if he's waiting for us in the presence of YHWH.



[WARP!]

Well, that's a new one. I've never heard Einstein called a Christian before. My take on that is that 'one of your teachers' is an idiot. Einstein was Jewish, by birth, but never orthodox, and his personal religion was Deist. I've seen a lot of those quotes before, both the mystical-deist ones (the mind of God stuff) and the denial of the specific version of God that Sun Tzu mentioned. The difference in style is due to that last one being -written- as opposed to being a quote of him speaking conversationally. (His written English was always rather stilted.) 'God does not play dice with the universe' was in a spoken conversation with Oppenheimer, who reportedly replied, "Albert, don't tell God what he can't do."

As for the 'evidence' from the USSR? Sounds misquoted or misinterpreted. Both the Soviets and the Nazis were guilty of trying to make science fit their political views (a problem with fanatics, I've noticed - the current version is Global Warming), denounced relativity and quantum mechanics as, respectively, Bourgeois Physics and Jewish Physics, and crippled their R&D programs into nuclear energy as a consequence. Sakharov eventually told Stalin that if he wanted a nuclear bomb, he was going to have to stop such nonsense; supposedly Stalin was impressed by being told 'no' and gave him five years to produce. Heisenberg apparently decided that he did not -want- Hitler to have nuclear weapons and allowed the Nazi program to go down blind alleys until it was too late in the war for them to produce one.

The idea that the Soviets would spread rumors about someone's Christianity to discredit them won't fly unless it was intra-Party politicking. The Soviets did not -approve- of Christianity, but a big chunk of their population was Orthodox, and they knew better than to try to brand Christians as generally subversive in their public propaganda. Like their Nazi brethren, they reserved that honor for Judaism when they weren't simply attaching political labels to people they didn't like.

[The JAM]

[...unWARP!!!]

Good evening.


You're right, Kerry. That particular testimony in the book "Tortured for Christ" took place in Romania, not the USSR. Specifically, a student asked the teacher why they were being taught physics that were compiled by an "undesirable", i.e., a Believer in God. That student went on to ask that if the universe and everything in it came about randomly, why was it called "Einsteinian Space-Time", if Einstein was completely against everything else taught by the Communists. Eventually that teacher got so wrapped up thinking about it that she realised that the communist dogma was completely wrong, and that sparked another round of persecution in that school.

Again, me and my dad will do a bit more research to see what we can find.


And Kerry? That "idiot" teacher of mine was either incorrect or misinformed, or both, but she still had incredible knowledge of the Bible and was able to minister to teens and children like few teachers I know. I still have the highest respect for her, so if it's not too much trouble, I'd ask that you do the same.


Zacatepongolas!

Until next time, remember:

I

AM

THE

J.A.M. (a.k.a. Numbuh i: "Just because I'm imaginary doesn't mean I don't exist")

Good evening.

[WARP!!!]

[Sun tzu]

'God does not play dice with the universe' was in a spoken conversation with Oppenheimer, who reportedly replied, "Albert, don't tell God what he can't do."

I think that was Niels Bohr, not Oppenheimer.

[Kerry Skydancer]

'God does not play dice with the universe' was in a spoken conversation with Oppenheimer, who reportedly replied, "Albert, don't tell God what he can't do."

I think that was Niels Bohr, not Oppenheimer.

I've seen the story both ways, with various wording on the reply; more often with Oppenheimer, but it could be either.



JAM, I'll ... semi-apologize. You're right, I shouldn't have called your teacher an idiot across the board. But calling Einstein a messianic Jew...? Don't know where she got that from, but at best she swallowed some stupid story whole. Brilliance in one field does not translate to other fields. Einstein was one of the top minds we've ever had in physics, but he was hopelessly idealistic in politics.

[Mikhail Dragoslav]

As Einstein himself said: "If relativity is proved wrong the French will call me a Swiss, the Swiss will call me a German, and the Germans will call me a Jew."

He's a man of such fame and importance that everyone tries to lay some claim to him and his legacy.

According to the FBI: An investigation was conducted by the FBI regarding the famous physicist because of his affiliation with the Communist Party. Einstein was a member, sponsor, or affiliated with thirty-four communist fronts between 1937 and 1954. He also served as honorary chairman for three communist organizations.

He also wrote an essay called "Why Socialism?" and wrote contemptously of nationalism. ?Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.? Because of his political leanings, Communists claim Einstein as one of their own.

Because Einsten was Jewish, and (after a fashion) a Zionist, Jews trumpet him as one of their own. According to one exhibit I saw on him, he was even offered the presidency of Israel after its founding, but turned it down. I think even Germans try to claim Einstein as one of their own too.

Pacifists read his words and claim Einstein as their icon:

"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despicable an ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."

Scientists and secularists trumpet his colossal acheivements as a victory for science while the religious claim his religious bent as a victory for them.

Just from these few things you walk away with Einstein as being: Religious, Jewish, German, a scientist, a communist, and a pacifist. There's probably more too. They pick and choose the bits of the man they want to see and disregard that which contradicts with the image they're trying to put forward of him.

[Tom Mazanec]

Something I picked up from the UberCD is that the City and Villages are growing. IIRC there are also hamlets which are on their way to becoming Villages in their own right. While "Raccoonia" is bigger than I initially thought, it is still, even with lux for technology, a medieval society in a limited area. And Racconans live a long time. It is within the lifetime of the younger citizens that this question will HAVE to be faced.

[Tom Mazanec]

MikeVanPelt
I know this is several weeks late, but reading the UberCD's journal I saw a reference to "animal" raccoons.

[Jrynd2]

Ahh Jerusalem. Settled by the Jews, built by the Jews, lived in by the Jews for thousands of years

Not if you believe the Bible.

The area was settled even before Abraham's time.
Genesis 14:18ff
It was still settled, by a different group, in the time of Joshua.
Joshua 15:8,63
There are plenty of references in Joshua and Judges to the Jebusites.
Finally,
2 Samuel 5, when the Israelites finally conquer it fair and square.

[RHJunior]

Yes, and by that same argument it would be more accurate to say New York City was built by the local Indian tribes. Anything left by the previous pagan settlements in the region was brickdust and ash millenia ago.

It's a Jewish city, built and rebuilt by Jews, lived in by Jews, defended by Jews, and has been for longer than Europe has known the Earth wasn't flat. Are you getting the point? THOUSANDS OF YEARS. Centuries before the birth of Christ. Jews shed their blood on its walls, fighting the hordes, gave birth to their children there, buried their dead there. It has been inhabited by the Children of Israel, living and dead, for longer than most of the arrogant whelps on the UN have had nations, longer than quite a few have had written language.

Yet some cultist by the name of Muhammed thousands of miles away has a dream about it, and the world is supposed to accept that as a rightful claim of ownership by the Islamic world. Who oh who has the rightful claim to the land and capitol of Israel? I just can't decide! Can you??

The Muslims can go pound sand where the sun don't shine.

[Conlang]

Tell me, how many more decades do the Muslims get to kill us Infidels before we're allowed to criticize their religion for it?

Xellas, the Muslim faith was STARTED by a man who led his followers on bloody war campaigns. It was SPREAD on the point of the sword for four centuries prior to the first Christian "crusade" (see my Livejournal post of the relevant dates and information.) It STILL ESPOUSES slaying the Jew and the infidel, and demands conquest of the world. Those rare few Muslim leaders who don't preach Jihad whenever they can spend most of their time <I>writing apologisms for the actions of the terrorists</i> and threatening anyone who looks like they might "defame Islam" with lawsuits.

The "peaceful Muslims" are consistently proving the exception, not the rule.

Let's address this from a different perspective.

"Most Klansmen, neonazis, and Aryan Supremacists are actually generally peaceful and law abiding. Is it fair to judge them by the actions of a vanishing few?"

No, because we're not judging them "by the actions of a few," we're judging them <I> by the immoral content of their beliefs.</i>

Freedom of speech, press and religion is the right to express your beliefs in a public forum <I>for other people to evaluate and judge.</i> It is not a guarantee of government protection from criticism.

Islam has been up for public consideration for over 1400 years. And after 1400 years of spittle-flecked calls to Jihad against the Infidel, 1400 years of reciting Muhammed's call to slay the infidel "wherever ye may find him," 1400 years of oppression, brutality, and totalitarian war, <I>it has been found wanting.</i>

Oh boy. This is simply the first of several things (and several people) I want to respond to on this thread

I had a very good friend who happened to be a neo-pagan, who could easily have passed for the "Best christian" you ever knew. Never hurt a soul, and in fact has saved at least one life (her friend accidentally cut her wrist open, and she dragged the girl screaming and crying as she held the wound shut all the way to get help). Yet when she was living in Union County Tennessee, which has a large population of very conservative Christians, she could not go to school without being harassed or even beaten up, getting her head slammed repeatedly in a locker. It turned out later that the kids who had been doing this to her had been <i>put up to it by their own Christian parents!</i>

Based on that, how would you like everybody to conclude that all Christians are bad people who cannot accept other people for their differences, who determine to set out and exterminate everyone they happen to disagree with? In fact, for hundreds of years, Christianity as a whole was morally identical to the Islam you describe. One is reminded of the Spanish conquest of the Americas, and later the English, not to mention the centuries of in-fighting since the protestant reformation

It's not so clear-cut when you put the shoe on the other foot.

Very clearly, the misconduct of great numbers of Christians does not invalidate the entire religion, nor should the misconduct of many Muslims.

As for being backwards goat farmers, I must ask if I am the only one who knows that it was the Arab-Muslim world that made possible a large part of the European Renaissance? (a lot must also be credited to Christian monasteries, but that only serves my earlier thesis that not every member of a group is the same, as these were rare shining moments of a backwards society) The Midieval Arabs were great mathemiticians, giving us Europeans <i>Algebra</i> by their conquest of Spain, and bringing the idea of zero over to us from India.

(Similarly, the knowledge of Europeans was greatly expanded during the Age of Conquest.)

The fact that they are goat farmers is to be bemoaned, as it is a sad state of affairs when civilization falls to ignorance.

The "flaw" inherent in Islam is the same flaw inherent in Christianity--it's insistence on faith over conduct and reason. That is why the Muslim scientists fell to extremist Imams, and why the continent of Europe had so little resurgence of scientific thought until secular humanism. (One can argue back and forth to no end the religiosity of the Early european scientists, but the fact is, they rejected the Church as the ultimate authority, and excercised reason over faith, otherwise they never would have challenged the notions of Aristotle that the Church happened to be on when it stagnated.) Many of them were sorely persecuted for it.

The insistence of Faith over conduct is also at least one reason that the attempts to convert others to their religions were so bloody--in the end, God will forgive you so long as you believe in Him, therefore any means to bring new followers should be acceptable.

Much of the superiority of Christian society over Muslim society stems from the fact that we have had scientists challenging us and making us think hard about what we believe, while for a long time the Muslims have not been so lucky.

The effort to paint all Muslims as dangerous is nothing more than simple laziness--the same laziness that lead to the Napoleonic code. If we assume guilt, then we have no need to prove it, and we can get rid of these people before we have to put forth the effort of thinking about it. Unfortunately, the cost in terms of innocents is simply too great to apply such a principle, hence the old maxim "It is better by far that the guilty go free, than the innocent man be sent to the gallows." None of the muslims I've met have attempted to attack or hurt me in any way because I am different. Do you have any PERSONAL enecdotes to the contrary? (I am not refering to conservative alerts here. I mean personal experiences of friends and family). How about reliable numbers on hate-crimes versus infidels? Otherwise I have to disagree with your "exception not the rule" statement.

As for the Jews "trying to pass Christ off as a Charlatan" read here about the JEWISH requirements for a Messiah: http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

Go there and scroll down to "What wil the Moshiach do?" You find that the Jewish Messiah is a political leader that (in short) will restore Israel to its former glory, rebuild the temple, and banish all war and famine. Jesus, on the other hand, was purely a spiritual leader, which is why the Jews rejected him. They are not trying to "pass off" anything, but simply stating their own beliefs in their own context, not ours.

[Conlang]

Yes, and by that same argument it would be more accurate to say New York City was built by the local Indian tribes. Anything left by the previous pagan settlements in the region was brickdust and ash millenia ago.

It's a Jewish city, built and rebuilt by Jews, lived in by Jews, defended by Jews, and has been for longer than Europe has known the Earth wasn't flat. Are you getting the point? THOUSANDS OF YEARS. Centuries before the birth of Christ. Jews shed their blood on its walls, fighting the hordes, gave birth to their children there, buried their dead there. It has been inhabited by the Children of Israel, living and dead, for longer than most of the arrogant whelps on the UN have had nations, longer than quite a few have had written language.

Yet some cultist by the name of Muhammed thousands of miles away has a dream about it, and the world is supposed to accept that as a rightful claim of ownership by the Islamic world. Who oh who has the rightful claim to the land and capitol of Israel? I just can't decide! Can you??

The Muslims can go pound sand where the sun don't shine.

I don't think an exclusive claim is what's right for either party. We wouldn't expel the Native Americans, would we? The unfortunate thing is that what's right and what happens are very different things. Perhaps we can hope for modernization from an influx of American-born Muslims fearing persecution over here

[Yuoofox]

I believe that every group of people, whether it be a nation or a religion or whatnot, cycles through their "up times" and their "down times" throughout history. A group's power, prestige, moral quality, education, and compassion all fluctuate over time.

As a Christian, the way I approach Islam is to start by acknowledging the basic differences and go on from there. I believe one thing regarding God, Jesus, and Mohammad. They believe another thing. So far so good. I believe one thing about heaven, goodness, and salvation. They believe another thing. Okay, I can handle that. I'm not saying that the differences aren't important. I believe that Jesus's way is the True Way. So, I'm going to live my life by it, and I'm going to encourage everyone else to live their lives by it. Even so, I'm going to be respectful. I'm going to make sure I see the goodness in everyone, even if they believe different things than me. For me, that's the essence of it.

Of course, I acknowledge that I'm intentionally side-stepping all of the messy, complicated details. On the news, you hear about suicide bombings, terrorists, Osama, the War on Terror, innocent people being killed, Jihad, No Blood for Oil, airport profiling, and everything else. To sort through this mess, I usually aim for the positive, despite the grim and questionable things I see. I like President Bush (though I understand and acknowledge why some people don't like him), and I hope and pray that good things are in the works for everyone.

I know that this sounds too black-and-white, but I say: "Fight against the bad guys, but don't hold a grudge against a whole group of people. Listen to criticism, but don't let it completely paralyze you.

[Conlang]

I can go with that. In my opinion, rationalism should always win out over fear and contention. Sadly, that does not always happen, and some few years ago it had the effect of chasing me completely away from politics. Now I'm getting back into the fray. Go figure, right?

That said: [quote=yuoofox]I believe that every group of people, whether it be a nation or a religion or whatnot, cycles through their "up times" and their "down times" throughout history. A group's power, prestige, moral quality, education, and compassion all fluctuate over time. [/quote]

In other words, gloat while you can, Euros, cuz you may be exactly like these goat farmers are now in a few hundred years, and THEY will be the ones in space

Although I kight hazard to guess that that will have more to do with economics than culture.

In response to the rest of your post, I've always had a taste for what you don't see everyday. When my English class was assigned a project on European mythology, I was the only one who DIDN'T pick a Greek or Roman deity (my report was on Thor). That's my approach to other religions--some fascinatging new aspect of humanity that should be studied rather than condemned (although I must confess to knowing next to nothing reliably about Islam).

[GrayTiger]

So how does all this relate to open traders vs expansionists again?

[Conlang]

So how does all this relate to open traders vs expansionists again?

It's like an epic journey--you start one place and end up very far away

[The JAM]

I COULD give a few huge differences of Christianity and Catholicism, but I don't think this forum could stand the flame war afterwards.

[Conlang]

I COULD give a few huge differences of Christianity and Catholicism, but I don't think this forum could stand the flame war afterwards.

I've been hearing that for ten years, my friend, and it never gets less silly. I've already talked it to death, so all I'm going to say is do a little research, especially on history, and form your own conclusion--AFTERWARDS.