Which side would you join?

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Mutant for Hire
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Post by Mutant for Hire »

RHJunior wrote: They would fall on the Left Wing end of the scale.
You had me until this point. You're trying to impose modern late 20th century to early 21st century values on what constitutes left wing and right wing values here, or rather your perception of them. What has constituted "left wing" and "right wing" is highly contextual.

At the threat of dragging in modern politics, I would say that the centralization of power has pretty much become an apolitical attitude these days. Both the Democrats and the Republicans have been trying to increase federal power not to mention government spending. The two groups merely disagree on what should be done with that power.

When it gets to foreign policy, things are even more murky. I could make a very good argument that the Expansionists are "Right Wing" as they aren't going to molly coddle and deal with these other races that have oppressed them in history whereas the Open Trade people are "Left Wing" and are trying to deal peacefully with other races.

In the end, we could spend a great deal of time arguing about what "Left Wing" and "Right Wing" mean, both in terms of our society and the society of this webcomic.

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Post by Sehvekah »

One of many reasons I've no faith in or respect for the party system(doesn't matter how many there are or arn't, we need to get to a no-party system).

That said, the traders have got a workable idea(really, the expansionists would have better luck with lux-powered smash-and-grab raiding parties), though personally I'd couple that with new colonies as soon as it's viable(purchace some land, increace production base, use to increace trade, buy more land, lather, rinse, repeate). Same net effect as the expansionists, but faster, with less mess.

Sure, the humans might grumble about their land getting bought up, but hey, they're the ones who traded their homland away for some glowing beads. Sides, get a couple more luxfonts going, expand the mistwall to encompass the new lands, then start more trading posts and colonies. They might not have the level of secrecy they used to, but many of their defenses would still be in place, and they'd have better resources. All in all, most walk away happy(except for the humans who sold their land, but TS on them if they didn't spend their beads wisely).

W00T! Lucky number 13! 8)
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Post by Tbolt »

Tom Mazanec wrote: BTW, I think it is fun to imagine the Racconans having these arguments over games of chess instead of games of cards. They seem to be more intelligent than humans.
Any Expansionists out there? It is no fun having a political debate with only one side! :D
OK, I'll take the part of devil's advocate here.

Trade is nice, but ultimately the rac-conans will have to expand their borders. They are effectively hiding behind smoke and mirrors and a wall of ignorance. The northern lake is a fairly effective natural border, especially when combined with the efforts of the weathermages. However ugly the swamp is, it can still be passable terrain with enough effort. The mistwall is just a cloak to keep outsiders from peeking in. Human mages are fewer and further between than rac-conan, but they are of superior quality. Additionally, get enough of them together at once and I could see the mistwall evaporating. As the human kingdoms around the Rac-conan lands expand and explore someone's going to get curious as to what is behind the mistwall. Humans aren't stupid, they will eventually figure out a way to defeat it, either out of curiosity or some unforseen necessity. How will the rac-conans fare against an invasion 10 - 1, 20 - 1, even 100 - 1 odds? Worse, what if they lose their technical edge because of the advances instituted by a brilliant person like DaVinci, Edison, Tesla, etc.? Isolationism is fine as long as the rest of the world stagnates.

The impression I'm getting about their land is that they are still a long way from populating it, however once it is fairly well settled and the internal hazards worked out there will be a population explosion. (Two breeding cycles per year should lead to at least 1 successful pregnancy and 1 or two kits every other year) Add to that a 200+ year lifespan... They are going to need space to house their people, they will have to grow beyond the mistwall, eventually.

Finally, there is the distressing lack of natural resources. Necessity is the mother of invention, but just how much can be accomplished with stone, earth and plants? Metals have properties that are just not found in other materials (ductility and malleability combined with durability). Metal tools and implements are just of superior quality to their stone or wooden counterparts. Luxcraft can alleviate this to a point: Slicer sticks are a great example, what should require a high grade of steel can be accomplished with lux and a twig. How many other workarounds are possible, though? And how effective are those solutions away from the lux font?


RH proposed three methods of expanding rac-conan territory:
RHJunior wrote: 1)Find some (lands) that are unclaimed.

2)Buy them from someone else.

3)Take them from someone else by force.

I propose that the answer to expansion is dependant upon one thing: What is the state of the kingdoms outside the mistwall?

1.) Locating "unclaimed" land. Human warfare and genocide have gone hand in hand for as long as history has been recorded and records survived to tell the tale. The rac-conans might not need to go very far in their quest for "unclaimed" territory. All they might need to do is wait for the scavengers to be done picking the bones. As an example Ghengis Kahn left a trail of destruction, not civilization in his path.

2.) Land purchase: Tricky, but feasible if the neighbors are civilized. Also a right of passage might be negotiated in order to explore for new lands. This option might work to an extent. But most kingdoms will not be willing to give up viable resources if they know about it. Additionally, if gold is struck in the desolate hills, they may want to reclaim their former territory.

3.) Open warfare: Similar to option 1, just doing the job yourself. Genocide has a grim practicality to it. If there are no survivors to come back to claim vengeance, then you don't have to worry about bloody reprisals. However, once "shock and awe" have worn off resistance will become fanatic to further expansion and nobody will think twice about returning the genocidal favors. Oh, and you can probably kiss free trade goodbye once an agressive war of expansion has started.

Regardless of the method of expansion the rac-conans will need the firepower to back up their claims. If they wait too long they might find that all surrounding lands are settled and there is no hope of peaceful expansion. In which case there might be one final terrible option:

4.) Capitulation: If you can't beat them, join them. This has the most incredible risk, but could have the greatest rewards. Join with a powerful neighbor and integrate with their population. Worst case scenario: Slavery and genocide. Best case: acceptance and equality. Can it be done? How did a small band of whacks in Jerusalem subvert the greatest empire this planet had ever seen? It wasn't by force of arms.

My conclusion is that the rac-conan society cannot exist independant of the rest of the world forever. At the very least they should have eyes and ears out in the world looking for opportunities to present themselves otherwise they might fine that the hour of opportunity has past and the time of extinction might be upon them.
Always tell the truth, that way you don't have to remember anything. -- Mark twain

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Post by RHJunior »

Mutant for Hire wrote:
RHJunior wrote: They would fall on the Left Wing end of the scale.
You had me until this point. You're trying to impose modern late 20th century to early 21st century values on what constitutes left wing and right wing values here, or rather your perception of them. What has constituted "left wing" and "right wing" is highly contextual.
There always has been, and always will be, a basic divide: those who strive towards more individual autonomy, rights, liberty, and equality and the objective morality that is its foundation.... and those who strive towards "collective rights," centralized power, and subjugation of individualism to collectivism, and the subjective morals and situational ethics that underpin THAT worldview. Names are irrelevent, "context" is a smokescreen.
At the threat of dragging in modern politics, I would say that the centralization of power has pretty much become an apolitical attitude these days.
Government growth is, yes, apolitical. It is a natural property of government to seek to expand itself. However, the difference in the PARTIES lies in how they regard this growth philosophically and ideologically. the Republican politicians ESPOUSE-- even if they do not practice--- "smaller government." As such, the GOP's greatest failing is its refusal to practice what it preaches.... not in the content of its sermon.
When it gets to foreign policy, things are even more murky. I could make a very good argument that the Expansionists are "Right Wing" as they aren't going to molly coddle and deal with these other races that have oppressed them in history whereas the Open Trade people are "Left Wing" and are trying to deal peacefully with other races.
It has taken many long years of leftist schoolyard indoctrination to convince silly children that it is the RIGHT wing that is the party of "warmongers."

And there is a hell of a lot of difference between the right-wing policy of engaging in open trade with equals, from a position of strength.... and the left-wing policy of appeasement and trying to appease hostile entities with dane-geld, from a position of weakness.

Republicans may fight wars, but Democrats make them inevitable.

The conservative espouses a strong and powerful military <I> because that is the surest way to insure peace.</i> The liberal espouses a weak military, and inevitably provokes war with an outsider by appearing vulnerable.

In review:

The Open Traders are espousing a reconfiguration of their nation's whole military/national security policy and their trade policy as well. Their argument is that their nation has grown, both in numbers, infrastructure and technological capability, past the point of needing to hide in darkness and isolation, and that in fact they cannot sustain such a policy and continue to thrive. They also point out that the Wall of Mists hasn't exactly been a 100% deterrent for determined explorers and invaders--- as the Archivist's own "Hall of Kings" demonstrates. They want a stronger, visible military, a more "solid" and traditional securing of their borders to supplement or even replace the Wall of Mists, and a policy of open trade with likeminded outsider nations, as free association and exchange is viewed as an innate right.


The Expansionists argue for a continuation of the existing trade/military policy. They argue that the current policy of secrecy and isolationism has proven sufficiently effective at securing the nation, and that the Villages are currently too weak to support the military infrastructure necessary for safe contact with the outside world. They also argue that outsider trade would destabilize the economy and disrupt their culture(or plead, more cloyingly, that Racconan culture and trade would destabilize the "lesser" societies)... and that having an obvious, powerful military would provoke attacks from fearful and envious outsiders. They insist that the current natural resources within their borders are sufficient, and that at most a policy of slowly expanding the outer borders would be sufficient to keep pace with growing needs.
In the Questorverse, both parties espouse a plan that will lead to contact with the outside world. The Open Traders want to explore and contact other likeminded societies for equitable trade.... and trade, exploration, and (hopefully) eventual settlement by necessity (especially in the Middle Ages) has to be paralleled by an enlarged military program. It's a package deal--- if you want to take a trade caravan out to strange lands, you'd best have armed guards along with you, and watchmen guarding the gates back home in case someone decides your people are a fat plum ripe for the picking.

The Expansionists, on the other hand, are attempting to maintain the status quo. They wish to remain hidden behind the existing curtain of secrecy and are consequently opposed to enlarging the Seven Villages' military capability--- as this would encourage bolder ventures and a more confident attitude towards reaching beyond their own borders. There are many reasons for their opposition to outside contact, of course: quite a number of them have accumulated considerable political power or wealth due to the lack of outside contact, for one thing.... and outside contact--- and the consequent reconfiguring of racconan society to accomodate this approach --- would destabilize their power and financial bases.

The border-expansion scheme is their namesake, but it is just a stopgap measure (or perhaps better termed "half-assed plan") they have devised in order to justify postponing... preferably indefinitely... strengthening the Seven Villages' martial ability and its taking a more forward place on the international stage. By expanding the borders--- or at least by constantly harping on the idea--- they can provide the ILLUSION of progress, thus mollifying the malcontents, without actually causing any "infrastructure-destabilizing changes."
They're basically trying to sell the populace on the notion that they can have their cake and eat it too. (The bread and butter of every liberal politician.)
A secondary consequence of this is that they have to convince the people that they have a right to something-- the land bordering the Swamp of Mists--- that is not theirs.
"What was that popping noise ?"
"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
--Dilbert

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Shyal_malkes
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Post by Shyal_malkes »

would anybody hate me if I just admitted here and now that I couldn't understand a word of that?

particularly...
RHJunior wrote:dane-geld
?
RHJunior wrote:stopgap measure
?
I still say the doctor did it....

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Tom Mazanec
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Post by Tom Mazanec »

dane-geld:
http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/k ... _geld.html
stopgap measure:
A person or thing serving as a temporary substitute for another; makeshift
Webster's New World College Dictionary Fourth Edition

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Post by Doink »

You know, Ralph, I've got to hand it to you; you are a great debater. You've managed to disillusion me from liberalism and encourage me to be more skeptical of news and politics.
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Post by Sharuuk »

Doink wrote:You know, Ralph, I've got to hand it to you; you are a great debater. You've managed to disillusion me from liberalism and encourage me to be more skeptical of news and politics.
Excellent, Doink.....welcome to the nuts & bolts of the real world... :D ..glad to have you. One of the things I love most about these particular forums is that given even a short length of time here, you will difinately get an education. And several others from the past have actually seen and recognized the inherent flaws in liberalism....how it strives to stifle individualism and capitalism. Whereas conservatism champions the individual and entrepreneur....and personal accountability.

Welcome...

Oh....BTW.....Open traders. :D

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Post by The JAM »

[...unWARP!!!]

Good evening.


Speaking of education...
Sharuuk wrote:you will difinately get an education.
d e f i n i t e l y

Just remember "finite", and add the suffix and prefix.


Zacatepongolas!

Until next time, remember:

I

AM

THE

J.A.M. (a.k.a. Numbuh i: "Just because I'm imaginary doesn't mean I don't exist", also a former English teacher)

Good evening.

[WARP!!!]

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Post by MikeVanPelt »

There are a few things I'm not clear on --

Is this "our world" (more or less), or another? Are there nonsentient raccoons on it? If so, how close, physically, are our friends to them? I'm thinking this might be one way they could do reconnisaince with little chance of being detected, if they can move around on all fours. Perhaps... unless knowledge of the Rac'cona is very widespread among humans. In that case, any raccoon might be seen as suspicious.

I don't think a human has appeared in any of the strips yet, though they've been mentioned, and most Rac'cona seem to know about them. What do humans know about the Rac'cona? There was contact in the past, of course, and some trade is still going on somewhere to account for the human coins the gangstas are using.

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Mutant for Hire
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Post by Mutant for Hire »

I've refrained from debating our esteemed host's reply to my post on the grounds I don't want to derail the thread any more than I have already, suffice it to say that I have pretty much total contempt for Democrats and Republicans. I find it difficult to express who I hate more, intellectually bankrupt Democrats who are mentally still stuck in the sixties or hypocritical Republicans who talk about small government and then proceed to outspend the Democrats and blithely pass laws increasing federal power.

I'm a centrist who thinks that there can be such a things as a too free market, which is why I think libertarianism with it's "privatize everything" philosophy is about as practical and viable as extreme socialism with the "the state owns everything" philosophy that the Soviets gave a whirl. I believe in a fair market, which is a vastly different thing than a free market. Corporations don't want a fair market, they want one that favors them. I do agree that you can strangle an economy with overregulation, which is why I think France is in trouble. The whole idea "if a little is good, then a lot more should be better" doesn't work in economics any more than it works in medicine, from both directions of regulation and deregulation.

Getting back to the main point of the thread, I suppose I'd be on the Open Trade side but frankly I'm not familiar enough with the geopolitical situation to know how viable it is for them to drop their magical protections and open up trade with the rest of the world. Not that I have any strong passions on the issue. Frankly I like Tales of the Questor despite the politics rather than because of it.

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Post by Xellas »

*claps at Mutant's statements* I'll just save us all a big headache and say I agree with him. I have equal contempt for both Republicans and Democrats, and while I'm MOSTLY centrist, I do have some left-leaning tendencies. Which sucks because I live in Texas, and go to a christian college... meaning I'm swamped in right-wing republicans.

In any case, I'd be with the Open Traders here... stopgap measures are only good when they lead up to a real solution, and the Expansionists don't have any long term solution to the problem. Assuming that they don't institute a population cap (which they obviously are not, considering they are in this mess in the first place) then the expanding population will simply continue to grow in resource consumption. As populations expand, the potential for faster population growth exists... before long, they'd have to constantly be moving that mist wall outwards, and then they'd have to start speeding up its expansion... it would reach a point where you couldn't hide the aggressive expansion anymore. Then you have an army knocking at your door, and no strong military to defend yourself.

I personally like Tales of the Questor because its very politically neutral. I find talking about politics ruins the rest of the day for me due to my intense loathing of both parties and the word and mind games politicians play.

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Post by Remmon »

Open Traders

And I do agree with the 'fair' market idea. You need some laws, some government regulation to keep the big from eating up the small and making a homogenic market. For the rest you'll want minimal government interference in the market though.

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Post by RHJunior »

"Too free a market."

So tell me, Mutant For Hire, how much of your personal private possessions that you have RIGHT NOW do you want the government to come in and take?

How about your house? What, no? You say it's yours? Okay, how about HALF your house? A timeshare maybe? Maybe just your furniture? How about your car, how about that? Would you be willing to have the government send in a federal employee to drive your car around for his own business once or twice a week on your dime? Tell you what, we'll let the government put a federal employee in your house to sleep on your bed, eat your food, wear your clothes, and take control of the TV remote.

Just how much of YOUR life are you willing to sign away to the greed, corruption, and control of those in power?

Of course, it's never you that needs government control, is it. It's always SOMEBODY ELSE who has "too much freedom" and needs to be reined in for your-- pardon me, <I>their own good.</i>

Freedom's evil, this I know, for Hillary Clinton tells me so.

You have completely failed one of the most basic tests of human understanding. The Marketplace is not some vast faceless entity, some terrible black monster that needs to be reined in for everyone's safety (that is, however, a damned good description of the government.) It is the dynamic interaction that goes on between all entities; the free and voluntary exchange of private property from private individual to private individual. It is the very stuff of life.
<I><B>Human freedom and the free market are not seperate concepts, they are an indivisible continuum.</b></i> The less free the marketplace is, <I>the less free, and inescapably the less prosperous, everyone within it becomes.</i> Even the segmented bits of the population you are allegedly trying to "help" or "protect."

And what harm is the free market doing? Well, I've listened to people burble all day about it, and it always boils down to one of two:

1) There are people lying and cheating and stealing!

And how is this the fault of the free market? Do we not already have laws against theft and fraud? <I>Are these laws not the automatic prerequisites of capitalism?</i> And how in the name of God do you think that adding the overweening meddling of lazy, incompetent, corrupt bureaucrats and politicians is going to mend the affair?

And the second, more HONEST one:
2) Someone I hate is getting rich (and I'm not.)

Here we come to the true core of the matter. Leftism has always been and always will be nothing more than childish spite writ large. It depends, utterly NEEDS, class envy to survive.
Tell me, how precisely are "the rich" hurting people? By creating jobs? Providing cheap quality goods? Paying nearly all the taxes? (the top 50% of wage earners--- households making $50,000 or more annually--- pay 95% of all income tax, just for starters.) The REAL thing that makes today's latter-day Tragic Hipsters tear their hair out over McDonald's is the fact that it has done what Karl Marx and Che Guevara never did and never could--- feed millions of people on the cheap

But of course the above facts are less important to them than the ability to use their Rent-An-Identity to sit around smoking clove cigarettes and seething over the unspeakable tyranny and gulag-like oppression of Wal-Mart.

It never occurs to them that, in a free society, they too can be millionaires. (Though the likelihood of that dips with every day they spend slacking at the mall with their little dipstick wannabee socialist Starbuck-slurper friends.) Do you know how many millionaires there are in America?
As of 2004, 7.5 million.

THAT'S what a free market does.

And nearly ALL of them started out at the same workaday wage as the rest of us, or worse. Even in Hollywood you see people who start out with nothing and climb their way to the top. Even those who inherit great wealth have to work and invest to make that inheritance prosper... otherwise inflation alone would devour their sustenance. The only place you generally find trust-fund babies and the Idle Rich is in Batman comic books and Congress.


A fool looks at a rich man and mutters "noone should have so much."

A capitalist looks at a rich man and says "EVERYONE should have so much, and more!"
"What was that popping noise ?"
"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
--Dilbert

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Post by Tom Mazanec »

I am a Republican. I feel strong sympathy for the disenfranchised minorities of this nation (and I am a white, conservative Christian male). I feel the most sympathy, however, for the most persecuted minority of all. Millions of unborn children in this country have been murdered by their own mothers, and the Left actually applauds this. This is the top issue to me, and the reaon I am on the Right.

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Post by Maxgoof »

MikeVanPelt wrote:There are a few things I'm not clear on --

Is this "our world" (more or less), or another?
Another. The racconan world has two moons, for one.
Are there nonsentient raccoons on it? If so, how close, physically, are our friends to them? I'm thinking this might be one way they could do reconnisaince with little chance of being detected, if they can move around on all fours. Perhaps... unless knowledge of the Rac'cona is very widespread among humans. In that case, any raccoon might be seen as suspicious.
As far as I know, no, there are no raccoons on that world.
I don't think a human has appeared in any of the strips yet, though they've been mentioned, and most Rac'cona seem to know about them. What do humans know about the Rac'cona? There was contact in the past, of course, and some trade is still going on somewhere to account for the human coins the gangstas are using.
Ah, for that, you should buy Ralph's CD archives. He has a lot of background on the relationship between racconans and humans.

And humans *did* appear in one strip, although only in reference, not actual characters.

There is not *supposed* to be any trade going on. That was what the mist is for, however it is pretty obvious that such trade is, in fact, going on, at least in a limited fashion.
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Mutant for Hire
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Post by Mutant for Hire »

How nice, RHJ, you completely missed my point and are attacking a caricature straw man of me.

Do I believe in the state coming and taking away all of my things? Don't be ridiculous. In fact I stated that I am against extreme socialism and the state owns everything model. I'm against ridiculously high tax rates, the government providing everything through a bureaucracy, etc.

However I do not believe in a privatized police force, a privatized fire department, and for that matter I think that the road systems are a public infrastructure that is best maintained by the government.

I have spoken for a *balance* between private ownership and state ownership. I believe that some things are best owned by the government and some things are best done by private industry under some level of regulation. In some cases I think that government involvement is minimal. I don't think the state needs to be my landlord and own everything I have.

Do you believe that corporations shouldn't have regulations to ensure the safety of workers operating heavy machinery? Do you believe that we should deregulate the food industry so that we don't need laws guarenteeing the quality of our food or that the ingrediants on the labels match the contents?

"Let the free market decide". The problem with that is that the average person doesn't have the time or the energy to make a well researched decision about the things they buy. For that matter, could the average consumer go and inspect the food plant to make sure they've got proper sanitation there? No. Someone has to do it, the government is the best one to make sure the corporations play fair with the consumers.

Corporations are only concerned about making a product. We have lemon laws for a reason, as well as a lot of other laws against things like hidden surcharges and so on. Corporations want to make as much money as possible for the people running them. Customer satisfaction is not job one, it's not even job two. Corproations like to trap consumers in relationships where they have no choice but to turn to the corporation time and time again, no matter how shoddy the laws have. That is why we have anti-monopoly laws and the monopolies we do have are carefully regulated to ensure that the consumer is not abused in the relationship they are trapped in.

The free market will solve that? Bullcrap. Monopolies engage in anti-competitive behavior that locks out people coming into the market period. Pass laws to ensure that the companies don't do that? Oops. All of a sudden we no longer have a free market. You see, that's the kicker about freedom. When you make a market free, you make the members of the market free to do evil things as well as good things?

There were a tremendous number of corporate abuses back in the nineteenth century that caused laws regulated to keep the corporations under control. You take a lot of things in society for granted that people a century ago did not take for granted.

Are you an anarchist? If you aren't then you don't believe in freedom. If you don't believe that corporations should be allowed to enage in any behavior they like, against consumers or other corporations, then you don't believe in a free market, period. I don't believe in unbridlded capitalism for the same reason I'm not an anarchist.

And incidentally most of your cracks about the left are passing me by because I've never considered myself to be leftist. I think that affirmative action is treating the symptoms rather than the disease, and I believe that any welfare program should be some sort of workfare program that actively encourages people to get off of the system.

I don't think people should be punished for being rich. I think that we need to be careful about how people are getting rich. Corporate executives ripping off the consumer is one of those cases. I'm from California where we had Enron ripping off the people of California for billions of dollars. They basically abused a whole bunch of laws and made a lot of money in doing so. I believe that corporations should earn their money openly and honestly without exploiting their workforce under degrading conditions. If you're in favor of that sort of thing under a free market, then there's no point in talking to you. I believe in a fair and just world, and if you believe that freedom is more important than laws against requiring everyone to treat each other as human beings, then I consider you a zealot who considers ideas more important than people.

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Post by Shyal_malkes »

oh, how the mighty (topics) have fallen (into worthless political debates)
I still say the doctor did it....

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Post by BlasTech »

Quickly! Get the fireproofs on, ready the extinguishers and somone bring the marshmellows! :P

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Sharuuk
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Posts: 2780
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 11:10 pm
Location: Right here for now.

Post by Sharuuk »

The JAM wrote:[...unWARP!!!]

Good evening.


Speaking of education...
Sharuuk wrote:you will difinately get an education.
d e f i n i t e l y

Just remember "finite", and add the suffix and prefix.
OKay...point made :P .....long day, late post, half asleep and no spell check.......gimme a break willya? Yeah, I know.....notta chance!! :D :lol:

S'aaruuk
We are NOT surrounded.....this is a "target rich" environment!

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