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Kerry Skydancer
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Post by Kerry Skydancer »

Okay, I didn't express myself well. Yes, there are limits to what the Raccona can use in terms of weapon firepower. Nonetheless, I think we could build smaller and lighter weapons within those limits, improvements on their actual equipment. And they do -not- seem to have developed the idea of crew-served automatic weapons; they may be toddler-sized, but they're adults, with coordination and time to have developed the muscles they have. Give them an automatic loader and booster seats, and they could handle an M1A2 just fine - and they're small enough that you could -fit- an autloader into the tank without cramping them.

And I shouldn't have re-used the word 'manipulate'. No, humans cannot directly manipulate magnetic fields, and few enough of us can even directly detect them (I'm one of the exceptions, apparently. 8) ) But we can detect, direct, control, and use them through machinery. As long as the control mechanism on a lux device is physical, we can use them.
Aurrin
....and then a solar event happens. Radiation pours from the sun in copious quantities that would make even a nuclear strategian blanche. The atmosphere does the bulk of the work of shielding, true enough. But what does escape finds its way to the surface and irradiates the people badly. Now, radiation is survivable, to some extent. But radiation also has a peculiar property with metals. When encountering the heavy nuclei of those atoms, it tends to knock out one or two. This results in much deadlier neutron radiation, and sometimes produces radioactive metals that then further irradiate the people nearby. Hundreds of thousands die instead of only thousands.
Bad example. Solar - or even supernova - events do not create large amounts of neutron flux, which is the only way to activate new radionuclides (it's not just metals, btw - all elements can do this. It's just that most elements are metals.) If you had enough radiation reaching ground level to create activated radionuclides, you'd be too dead to worry about cobalt-60 residuals later on, let alone what the effects on your comm systems were.
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Post by Nikas_Zekeval »

RHJunior wrote:Heavier than air craft WOULD be of use to the Rac Cona Daimh. It's a major area they haven't made much progress. Internal and external combustion engines--- steam engines, stirling engines, gasoline and diesel engines--- would be a major leap forward as well. Long range communication devices would be another valuable commodity.... the light towers are the result of technological advances following a different route, and are terribly limited in their own fashion--- as are the messenger birds and other message-carrying methods.

Really, the majority of their technological handicaps are directly related to their shortage of certain resources, namely metal. Steam engines? Internal combustion engines? Not without considerable quantities of iron. Railway systems? Again, not without miles of iron tracks. Electricity? Telegraph? Telephones? Miles of copper wire.
Show them fiberoptics, and they might be able to turn them out without using much metal. Just need to come up with a Lux based laser analog. The transmitter and reciever sets don't have to be that elaborate, a 'clicker' to read the long and short flashes and the principle of Morse Code (three signals, short, long and null, broken by pauses, and all the letters are covered in four characters or less, up to 30 possible characters in a four pulse system If you don't want to spell numbers go to five charaters for numerals, and have 62 character-pulse codes) I agree that without a metal infusion IC and steam engines are pretty much curiosities to them. Sure, they are impressive in an artificer's lab, but not practical for mass use do to lack of material to mass produce them. And unless you have a Lux engine, HTA craft are going to be limited to gliders, no IC engine to drive them. Jet turbines need refractory metals to handle the high heats (burner cans go 2000 C plus) and high strength steel or titianium alloys for the stress of RPMs in the thousands range. Rocket power? One hard kick, then coast, and again, what do you susbstitue for metal in the high strength and temperature areas?
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Post by Aurrin »

Kerry Skydancer wrote:Bad example. Solar - or even supernova - events do not create large amounts of neutron flux, which is the only way to activate new radionuclides (it's not just metals, btw - all elements can do this. It's just that most elements are metals.) If you had enough radiation reaching ground level to create activated radionuclides, you'd be too dead to worry about cobalt-60 residuals later on, let alone what the effects on your comm systems were.
No, it's not just the new radioanuclides that's the problem. The problem is the neutron-scattering that happens when gamma rays, x-rays, and cosmic rays hit metal nucleii. It can kick neutrons out of the nucleus, and those neturons are far more deadly than the original gamma rays. That's actually a phenomena we've been looking at with regards to radiation shielding for a lunar base.

And while it can happen with all kinds of nucleii, the heavier ones are much more suceptible, whereas carbon and hydrogen have greatly reduced risks. This is one reason that composites are such a tempting alternative right now: they have much better secondary radiation properties than metals because they consist primarily of hydrocarbon chains.
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Post by CasVeg »

Yet another comic author's view on the Prime Directive.
Aurrin wrote:Yap, yap, yap. . .
Kerry Skydancer wrote:Chirp, chirp, chirp. . .
And I agree with both of you!

I don't really care about the conversation, now; I just love hearing physics-speak.

*Grabs a bag of popcorn and pulls up a chair.*

Please, continue.
.
.
.
What?

I am not being sarcastic!

(It's okay Mister f_xyz orbital; I won't let anything happen to you.)

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Post by The JAM »

[...unWARP!!!]

Good evening.


After reading Brian Jacques' "The Bellmaker", I once considered doing a crossover fanfic with some characters of mine, who visit Southsward from Earth, and yes, they have superior technology.

The problem with Southsward was that it was basically a medieval kingdom, with little advancement in long range communication, or transport, save for sea-faring ships, but no overland bulk cargo transport. My characters would solve Southsward's problem using the technology currently in use there: glass, and towers.

They would introduce the science of optics, or rather expand it, since some characters wear spectacles. Expanding the current glasswork technology, they would show them how to cast and polish large lenses, much like those used in lighthouses here. And again, with the local technology, build "broadcast" towers on top of mountains, tall trees, hills, or build an actual tower at strategic points. Each tower would use mirrors and shades to reflect sunlight (and at night, a bonfire) through the lens, which would focus the light beam in a single direction: i.e., another tower. The shades/blinds would be closed and opened in Morse-code fashion (further helping standardise and simplify the local language). All towers would "network" to the "hub" which would be Floret Castle, where the messages would be monitored. Not everyone can read or write, though, so the network would be used for mostly urgent messages, like a storm coming in from the east and telling everyone in the west to prepare.

At the base of the "cabins" there would be rudimentary alarms (simple to make out of wood, I think, but that's another story) that would alert the citizens whenever there was a national emergency or if the king wished to address everyone.

So if the light-tower network had been set up before the invasion of Urgan Nagru, the lookouts at the northwesternmost tower on the shore would have immediately alerted Floret Castle (80 km away). The king might have sounded a red alert for all the coast and a yellow alert for the rest of the kingdom, so by the time Urgan reached the shore, he would have met an army already waiting for him, arms ready.


Not necessarily a system for personal use, but it comes in quite handy and messages can travel faster than the fastest hawk or eagle.


Just a silly idea of mine.



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The Prime Directive

Post by Yuoofox »

**Caution: Very silly Fennec fox approaching.**

Here is what I have to say about the Prime Directive. Okay, here goes...

**Ahem**

"Two, three, five, seven, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37 41 43 47 53 59 61 67 71 73 79 83 89 97 101 103 107 109 113 127 131 137 139 149 151 157 163 167 173 179 181 191 193 197 199 211 223 227 229 233 239 241 251 257 263 269 271 277 281 283 293 307 311 313 317 331 337 347 349 353 359 367 373 379 383 389 397 401 409 419 421 431 433 439 443 449 457 461 463 467 479 487 491 499 503 509 521 523 541 547 557 563 569 571 577 587 593 599 601 607 613 617 619 631 641 643 647 653 659 661 673 677 683 691 701 709 719 727 733 739 743 751 757 761 769 773 787 797 809 811 821 823 827 829 839 853 857 859 863 877 881 883 887 907 911 919 929 937 941 947 953 967 971 977 983 991 997 1009 1013 1019 1021 1031 1033 1039 1049 1051 1061 1063 1069 1087 1091 1093 1097 1103 1109 1117 1123 1129 1151 1153 1163 1171 1181 1187 1193 1201 1213 1217 1223 1229 1231 1237 1249 1259 1277 1279 1283 1289 1291 1297 1301 1303 1307 1319 1321 1327 1361 1367 1373 1381 1399 1409 1423 1427 1429 1433 1439 1447 1451 1453 1459 1471 1481 1483 1487 1489 1493 1499 1511 1523 1531 1543 1549 1553 1559 1567 1571 1579 1583 1597 1601 1607 1609 1613 1619 1621 1627 1637 1657 1663 1667 1669 1693 1697 1699 1709 1721 1723 1733 1741 1747 1753 1759 1777 1783 1787 1789 1801 1811 1823 1831 1847 1861 1867 1871 1873 1877 1879 1889 1901 1907 1913 1931 1933 1949 1951 1973 1979 1987 1993 1997 1999 2003 2011 2017 2027 2029 2039 2053 2063 2069 2081 2083 2087 2089 2099 2111 2113 2129 2131 2137 2141 2143 2153 2161 2179 2203 2207 2213 2221 2237 2239 2243 2251 2267 2269 2273 2281 2287 2293 2297 2309 2311 2333 2339 2341 2347 2351 2357 2371 2377 2381 2383 2389 2393 2399 2411 2417 2423 2437 2441 2447 2459 2467 2473 2477 2503 2521 2531 2539 2543 2549 2551 2557 2579 2591 2593 2609 2617 2621 2633 2647 2657 2659 2663 2671 2677 2683 2687 2689 2693 2699 2707 2711 2713 2719 2729 2731 2741 2749 2753 2767 2777 2789 2791 2797 2801 2803 2819 2833 2837 2843 2851 2857 2861 2879 2887 2897 2903 2909 2917 2927 2939 2953 2957 2963 2969 2971 2999 3001 3011 3019 3023 3037 3041 3049 3061 3067 3079 3083 3089 3109 3119 3121 3137 3163 3167 3169 3181 3187 3191 3203 3209 3217 3221 3229 3251 3253 3257 3259 3271 3299 3301 3307 3313 3319 3323 3329 3331 3343 3347 3359 3361 3371 3373 3389 3391 3407 3413 3433 3449 3457 3461 3463 3467 3469 3491 3499 3511 3517 3527 3529 3533 3539 3541 3547 3557 3559 3571 3581 3583 3593 3607 3613 3617 3623 3631 3637 3643 3659 3671 3673 3677 3691 3697 3701 3709 3719 3727 3733 3739 3761 3767 3769 3779 3793 3797 3803 3821 3823 3833 3847 3851 3853 3863 3877 3881 3889 3907 3911 3917 3919 3923 3929 3931 3943 3947 3967 3989 4001 4003 4007 4013 4019 4021 4027 4049 4051 4057 4073 4079 4091 4093 4099 4111 4127 4129 4133 4139 4153 4157 4159 4177 4201 4211 4217 4219 4229 4231 4241 4243 4253 4259 4261 4271 4273 4283 4289 4297 4327 4337 4339 ... and so forth.

Very direct, and very prime.
Last edited by Yuoofox on Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by RHJunior »

My point is that Civilizations and Cultures are not people, any more than a Corporation is. They do not have Inalienable Rights. Civilizations and cultures are <I>artificial constructs used by people</i> to interact with one another and with outside cultures. They are as artificial and possess no more innate "right to exist" than any other artificial social contract. <I>Only the people within the society have any rights, and their interests hold superior status. If the culture violates those rights, then the culture must give way.</i>
http://www.shivae.org/csafari/archive.php?day=20010712
I have to say that this writer's approach to the prime directive has its own terrible flaw....

because it boils down to nothing more than an intergalactic version of <I>GUN CONTROL.</i>

Consider: What can we infer from this strip, and the one immediately following it?
1)The alien race in question-- I'll call them "Shivaeans" to save space--- has sufficient military force to enforce its rather hypocritical "no violence" statute on other nations and worlds with impunity. That implies an incredible amount of military muscle.

2)However, the existence of such a level of military force also indicates that they are not the only interstellar civilization out there... that there are civilizations and entities out there hostile enough, and powerful enough, to present a palpable threat to the "Shivaeans".

5)That if these other entities are a sufficient threat to the Shivaeans, then they are definitely a threat to "primitive" little earth.

6)Moreover, if the Shivaeans have enemies that threaten them, they cannot be ignorant of the reality of "the barbarians at the gate." They have to be aware, by brute experience, that even a peaceful, advanced society needs to be able to wield force to defend itself against those who only understand force... and that the barbarians come in all sizes, from planet-spanning empires to tinpot banana republics to vicious little street punks.

7)Furthermore, they have to be aware---from brutal experience--- of the truth of "peace through superior firepower." If they are truly as enlightened as they think, they are enlightened to the truth that the violent and lawless attack where they see weakness, <I>and that the surest way to prevent violence and war is to be too strong to be attacked with impunity.</i>

8)<B>Yet they effectively deny other races the right to defend themselves, by denying them the right to produce weapons of war sufficient to the threats that the Shivaeans themselves are armed against.</b> They keep other nations comparitively weak and vulnerable, and therefore dependent upon the Shivaeans.... and a constant temptation to the truly violent.<I>They provoke the very carnage they wish to prevent, by making the peoples subject to them into prey.</i>

They behave as a latter day British Empire.... they have marched into India, handed out their beads and bangles, and then proclaimed that no native Indian may carry a gun.
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Post by Strategia »

BlasTech wrote:Well, we might be able to upgrade their boomslangs ...
And how would you want to do that? If you don't remember, a Boomslang is that small lux crossbow Quentyn uses. It is an auto-reload, rapid-firing, silent weapon. How would we be able to improve that? I think that hitmen, mercenaries and special agents around the world would be dying to get their hands on one of these weapons.
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Post by BlasTech »

Buh? Nooo, thats a elfshot pistol. The boomslang is a firearm ... its what the guardsman captain was wielding in the gragum saga, and was also what was used to blow holes in the roof that Quentyn was hiding on.

I was thinking that with access to more metals, better alloys, better powder and a greater knowledge of firearm manufacturing we could give the Rac's more bang for their buck =^^=

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Post by RHJunior »

True. given more metals, and access to advanced metallurgy, the racconans would be able to make much lighter, stronger, and more powerful firearms. Consider that part of the reason it took as long as it did to go from the blunderbuss to the modern handgun was inferior metallurgy and manufacturing processes. They might have been able to build a piece-for-piece replica of a six-gun back in the earliest days of the iron age--- but it's up for grabs whether the thing would simply explode or not, due to the quality of the iron.

Remember, it's not just lack of ideas that held our own ancestors back--- it was lack of materials with the right properties. We might have had aircraft centuries ago, if Da Vinci had simply been granted access to lighter, stronger materials (His ornithopter was incapable even of gliding because it was so monstrously heavy... something on the order of 200-300 pounds!) or had been given insight to a simple mechanical motor.

Here's another thought for you: <I>synergy.</i> You know that the Racconans run everything on lux. You also know they generate lux artificially with generators turned by waterwheels.
Now picture slapping a steam engine on one of those boogers.
Or a diesel engine. Or a high-speed turbine.....

Picture the research that would go into finding ways to turn electricity DIRECTLY into lux. Picture magic wands powered by Duracell. Or by solar cell. Or the inverse--- picture electronic devices that could recharge off of lux.

Imagine the efficiency increase if they found a way to conduct Lux in wires, rather than just gushing it all over the place. (A variant of fiber-optics, perhaps?) Imagine millions of miles of electrical copper wiring in our world replaced with glittering, pencil thin cables....

Imagine the racconans finding a substitute for the monstrously heavy granite dampers--- perhaps something in space-age ceramic, or even in complex metal alloys or plastics. Imagine lux batteries far smaller and lighter than the heavy stone "wells" they use now.

Picture luftships capable of traveling AWAY from the ley lines.... and at a good turn of speed.

Imagine lux-powered computers, or computer controlled lux effects.

Imagine lux-powered spacecraft.
"What was that popping noise ?"
"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
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Post by NydaLynn »

[quote="TBolt"]
Islam was the pinnacle of human culture at that time, as you said they developed mathematics and literature to an impressive extent. (I believe for both Christianity and Islam the impetus was
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Re: The Prime Directive

Post by Mwalimu »

Yuoofox wrote:**Caution: Very silly Fennec fox approaching.**

Here is what I have to say about the Prime Directive. Okay, here goes...

**Ahem**

"Two, three, five, seven, nine, [...] ... and so forth.

Very direct, and very prime.
Someone polluted your prime directive with a composite.

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Re: The Prime Directive

Post by NydaLynn »

Yuoofox wrote:**Caution: Very silly Fennec fox approaching.**

Here is what I have to say about the Prime Directive. Okay, here goes...

**Ahem**

"Two, three, five, seven, nine, [...] ... and so forth.

Very direct, and very prime.
:o :o :o :o Good grief!! I do hope you did not just spend a weekend figuring out and typing up all those numbers for us!
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Post by Shyal_malkes »

"the prime derivative"(as according to me)
we shall refrain from giving unto other societies technology, techniques, blah, blah, blah, etc. unless they are deemed capable of handling said technologies, techniques, blah, blah, etc.

"the composite derivative"
any society that can advance should be allowed to advance and thus shall be given the opportunity to advance through access to any (if any) and all (again if any) advanced options we hold

"the J.I.C. derivative"
every society has (or in our opinion should) have it's own survival at it's center of interest, it is therefore unwize to give out all of our secrets to any ally that can become our enemy, it is better to keep these secrets a secret 'just in case'.

"the boring derivative"
every society chooses it's own interests and it is therefore a bad idea to shove down their throats advances that they have no interrest in

"the useless derivative"
(this derivative was put into place by an ambitious young senator who wanted to be re-elected to his position and thus made this derivative which sounds cool but contradicts itself on many levels and therefore is quite useless in being either informative or directing anyone in any usefull direction, the senator was assassinated two terms later.)

shall I make any more derivatives, or should we put these to a vote? :D
I still say the doctor did it....

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Post by Aurrin »

RHJunior wrote:We might have had aircraft centuries ago, if Da Vinci had simply been granted access to lighter, stronger materials
Not really. It's not just the raw materials. You have to also have the capability to work them. Aluminum would really be the only metal good for starting aircraft, and it's monstrously difficult to refine from ore. For example, the washington monument is capped with aluminum, because at the time it was very rare and very valuable. Heavier than air flight requires lots and lots of design and reiteration, not just thought.
RHJunior wrote:Here's another thought for you: <I>synergy.</i> You know that the Racconans run everything on lux. You also know they generate lux artificially with generators turned by waterwheels.
Now picture slapping a steam engine on one of those boogers.
Or a diesel engine. Or a high-speed turbine.....
Why stop there? If you're going to mix technologies, you might as well start a nuclear fusion lux plant. (Yes, it's feasible.)
RHJunior wrote:Picture the research that would go into finding ways to turn electricity DIRECTLY into lux. Picture magic wands powered by Duracell. Or by solar cell. Or the inverse--- picture electronic devices that could recharge off of lux.
That could be difficult. Not to mention the conversion could get very lossy. Sadly, thermodynamics tends to keep your energy conversions from being very efficient.
RHJunior wrote:Imagine millions of miles of electrical copper wiring in our world replaced with glittering, pencil thin cables....
Not likely. I wouldn't expect that to happen for quite some time. Sure, in the most advanced and modern places, it would be. But it takes quite some time for that technology to 'trickle down' to the lower ends.
RHJunior wrote:Imagine the racconans finding a substitute for the monstrously heavy granite dampers--- perhaps something in space-age ceramic, or even in complex metal alloys or plastics. Imagine lux batteries far smaller and lighter than the heavy stone "wells" they use now.
What is the energy density capacity of lux? I know that batteries actually have very low energy densities, which is one of the main reasons that electrical cars haven't replaced gasoline vehicles a long time ago. I mean, if you had a lux canister the size of a nine-volt battery, then how much energy could it hold?
RHJunior wrote:Picture luftships capable of traveling AWAY from the ley lines.... and at a good turn of speed.

Imagine lux-powered computers, or computer controlled lux effects.

Imagine lux-powered spacecraft.
I actually already had. I never brought it up after that little incident over the guns, because I figured I'd get chewed out for even thinking it.

Point? None. Just random commentary.
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Post by Yuoofox »

Someone polluted your prime directive with a composite.
Oh dear! You are right! I did include the number nine. Let me go back and change that. You see, I went to a website with a java application for generating prime numbers, and I got it to generate the prime numbers between 0 and 1,000,000. (But I only included up to 4339 on the post.) But, when I wrote my post, I decided to type out the first few numbers out in words. I guess I accidently threw in nine there because I was counting odd numbers.
Actually I was tempted to start a new thread on the forum called The Prime Directive, and then all prime numbers up to 1,000,000, but I decided not to because the forum might bomb out or you guys might get upset.

Here's another thought for you: synergy. You know that the Racconans run everything on lux. You also know they generate lux artificially with generators turned by waterwheels.
Now picture slapping a steam engine on one of those boogers.
Or a diesel engine. Or a high-speed turbine.....
**Makes a 1.21 gigawatt nuclear fusion reactor that turns the fusion energy directly into lux with 100% efficiency.** THE POWER! ABSOLUTE POWER! MWA HA HA HA HA!

Imagine lux-powered computers, or computer controlled lux effects.
I'm taking Computer Organization right now. (for the third time, actually :-? It's a long story.) A measurable and easily-manipulated alternative to electricity might come in very handy. I don't understand all of the aspects of Lux (especially when it comes to "supernatural" stuff like wights or shadowrats or heart-runes) , but just looking at it as energy, I bet we could use it to make a "cold" processor chip, which doesn't generate nearly as much heat. That's assuming that we would use solid materials to divert and process the lux (like silicon for electricity). From what I've seen in the comics, it's my guess that lux is always "broadcast" from some solid object or person. So, the shortcuts we come up with might not be infinite, but they'll be nice nonetheless.

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Post by Gengar003 »

Aurrin wrote:
RHJunior wrote:We might have had aircraft centuries ago, if Da Vinci had simply been granted access to lighter, stronger materials
Not really. It's not just the raw materials. You have to also have the capability to work them. Aluminum would really be the only metal good for starting aircraft, and it's monstrously difficult to refine from ore. For example, the washington monument is capped with aluminum, because at the time it was very rare and very valuable. Heavier than air flight requires lots and lots of design and reiteration, not just thought.
You know DaVinci's sketches of flying machines? The history channel had this show the other night "DaVinci's dream machines" or something, and they built one of his flying machines, using materials he'd have had access to, from his diagrams.

It worked.

The only thing was that since HE never got to try it (I think) It didn't have any way to control the roll, so it had to have a ground operator holding a rope attached to each wing to keep it from flipping (which could easily be fixed by adding ... ailerons, is it?). Their test flight outdid the wright brothers'.

So his design was sound, and didn't require new materials. If he'd built it successfully and flown it (and not died when he discovered that it flipped), he could very well have added some means of powering it and we'd have had aricraft back then. (+100 to 200 years to get large passenger ships, but you get the idea. RH is right)
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Post by Doink »

RHJunior wrote: http://www.shivae.org/csafari/archive.php?day=20010712
I have to say that this writer's approach to the prime directive has its own terrible flaw....

because it boils down to nothing more than an intergalactic version of <I>GUN CONTROL.</i>
I hate to say it, but you have a point, Ralph. As benevolent as the Cyantians' motives may be, their tactics for making friends with the people of Earth sometimes seem to be completely devoid of logic. I mean, seriously, why makes them think that Terrans would be more likely to accept the terraformed Mars and Venus as gifts than to become pissed off at the Cyantian's trespassing?
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Post by StrangeWulf13 »

Oh, you can bet there'd be a few people on earth who'd want to reenact the Doom games with the newly terraformed Mars and the local Cyantian population.

Cyantian: Hi! Welcome to--

Space Marine: GET THE HECK OFF OUR PLANET!!

Cyantian: :o Oh crap.

*many grisly things follow, most of which are too graphic to display here... really*

Space Marine: Who wants roasted fox?
I'm lost. I've gone to find myself. If I should return before I get back, please ask me to wait. Thanks.

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Post by Strategia »

BlasTech wrote:Buh? Nooo, thats a elfshot pistol. The boomslang is a firearm ... its what the guardsman captain was wielding in the gragum saga, and was also what was used to blow holes in the roof that Quentyn was hiding on.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but Quentyn didn't have a musket-like apparel with him at any point in the story IIRC. For as far as I know, "boomslang" is another name for an elfshot pistol.
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