June 22: Opening Moves

[CasVeg]

Well, now we get to hear some of the initial arguments for expansionism. They seem vaguely familiar. . . .

Of course, I believe gangs have less to do with economy and more to do with companionship and power. They feed on the fears and desires of their members and can emerge anywhere where people are willing to turn a blind eye.

[Kerry Skydancer]

Well, the one fellow brought up a good point. If they have uninhabited land nearby, why not expand into that first and see if it provokes a reaction? A lot safer than pushing into inhabited areas. Humans have a tendency to sit tight no matter what - look at the people who continue living on active volcanoes. I can see them staying and adapting to swamp living if the Racconans try to expand gradually over farmland.

[CasVeg]

Humans have a tendency to <i>explore</i>, grab what they can, and then not let go. And that mentality you mentioned, as typified by those people living near the volcano, will actually make it <i>harder</i> to expand: If there's just <i>one</i> person living in the scrubland near the swamps. . .


Did anyone else notice that that guy said, "They're little more 'n animals."? I'm willing to bet that the feeling is mutual.

[BlasTech]

Well people can be very territorial in some ways ... if they were faced with an expanding mistwall, and had enough supplies, they might try to "ride out" the inexplicable climate change. At least for a while the new land might contain one or two inhabited houses with verrry irate families.

[Mikhail Dragoslav]

Well, the one fellow brought up a good point. If they have uninhabited land nearby, why not expand into that first and see if it provokes a reaction?

Part of the problem is that what one person thinks is "uninhabited" isn't to the people who live there. The former's opinion is clouded by their own needs and agenda and rendered blind to those of the people who already live there. It's a recipe for a violent encounter.

The idea that the people who can develop the land best should seize it is an easy excuse for expansion. If more economically advanced countries were permitted to seize less developed land nearby then we'd see a few large advanced nations dominating the rest. It's also a convenient way to de-legitimize the achievments of other peoples and thus the people themselves.

Expansionism is dangerous, not the least because of the attitudes it installs in the people doing the expanding, as well as the inevitable response of those conquered or expelled by them.

[Jwrebholz]

I can see a need for more trade and expansion in their case. Things like iron, a common building material, shouldn't be treated like a semi-precious metal when it's plentiful everywhere else. Also just expanding without adding resources is also a bad idea--you'll just stretch what you have even thinner until that extra land starts to turn up more goods.

Just expanding out isn't going to solve their biggest problem--a lack of materials. Unless they find an open iron mine in the expanded territory they're still going to be short of it. They need to trade first, to gain more materials for more stuff, taht way they can more easily travel. Easier travel means more trade, more trade means more money, more materials and more respect, and possibly some protection from the the more powerful entities they trade with.

However I can see some people who would be opposed to open trading or expansion--specifically those who've gotten rich off the existing system, like Rahan's family. If a new source of cheap steel hit the seven villages it'd put Rahan's dad out of business--QUICK. Look what happened to the US steel industry when the Japanese started selling cheaper, better steel than the US companies. The area I live in used to be wall to wall mills. Now only a handful remain, even fewer are still operating.

More trade, however, would not hurt the criminal element. If anything it'd be a boon--Even in this country foreign tourists are considered easy marks by thieves, pickpockets and street thugs

So saying the criminal element would go away if more money was put into the system is a fallacy. The rich will get richer (the traders at any rate) the poor will appear to get poorer (but some will benefit), the criminals will pick less on the locals and more on the tourists, ironmongers and the like will be driven to bankruptcy.

It may seem like a mixed message but in the end, opening borders to trade will help the seven villages in the long run. They will be able to exchange not only goods and services but also ideas and knowledge. Any community that isolates itself stagnates from a technological standpoint. The Rac'conans may seem pretty advanced for the apparent time period, but we don't really know much of anything about the outside world. We have no way of knowing just how far humanity has advanced in this time--they might be on an even keel or even more advanced. Hard to say.

[Tbolt]

Part of the problem is that what one person thinks is "uninhabited" isn't to the people who live there. The former's opinion is clouded by their own needs and agenda and rendered blind to those of the people who already live there. It's a recipe for a violent encounter.

The idea that the people who can develop the land best should seize it is an easy excuse for expansion. If more economically advanced countries were permitted to seize less developed land nearby then we'd see a few large advanced nations dominating the rest. It's also a convenient way to de-legitimize the achievments of other peoples and thus the people themselves.

Expansionism is dangerous, not the least because of the attitudes it installs in the people doing the expanding, as well as the inevitable response of those conquered or expelled by them.

If you really wanted to take that thought to an ugly conclusion; There is a certain savage practicality to genocide. If you eliminate all the inhabitants of a particular reigon then you don't have to worry about their kin coming back to hunt you down. Heck, then you could demonize the former inhabitants and sing songs about how your valiant warriors purged the blight from the land.

Didn't somebody say that history is written by the winners?

Regarding slums, I seem to recall some historical reference that one of the ancient empires (Greek? Roman? Persian?) had this concept regarding cities: Once the city had grown to about 10,000 inhabitants about half the population was moved out to found a new city. This promoted territorial expansion and kept cities from getting too large and overburdening local resources.

[RedSquirrel456]

I think it would help to know exactly where the humans are and what they're doing at this point. Who knows? Maybe they even have gunpowder, which would definitely help to even the odds in any struggle against the Rac'Conans (or anything else for that matter). Also, just expanding a teeny bit at a time isn't much of an option. If Rac'Conans are this far-sighted, and as bad off as that chess guy says (I've got the idea they have no mountains, thus no or few options for mining precious metals) they'll have to know that eventually a full-blown push in some direction will be needed to get what they must. The humans very likely are not going to accept any major changes or moves against them, though, if they figure out the Rac'Conans are behind it. When actual contact happens may be the only time we can see how this will play out.

And frankly, if they're terribly short on iron and other metals, simple trade probably won't be an option... they're going to have to take it and start manufacturing some of their own. This isolation will only keep them insulated, safe, and civilized for so long. Unless they nab their own mines and farm their own land, new land, I mean, not just depending on reusing the old land over and over again, someone will eventually pick up on their weakened state and bulldoze into them like the Rac'Conans are planning to do to others. We don't know if the humans are in dire straits themselves. I can really only see this turning out violently, or at least with lots of confusion. Unless the humans are somehow incredibly open-minded and decide their old enemies warrent profitable trading deals. Unless the humans are ruled by profit-driven individuals that might not be likely. Or, the Rac'Conans could have a chance by going through some powerful trading organization (if the humans have an equivalent to Ventian mercantile empires or something), and manipulating the corrupt or ignorant to get some advantageous land grabs.

[SolidusRaccoon]

I still feel the OT's have the best plans, along with maybe a dash of expansionism. Human buys the land around the mistwall, then sells it to the Racs. A very profitable venture for both sides. In my theory the OT's would start out small with a selct band of humans, the humans would slowly introduce and spread out theRac ideas and technology. Let the humans gradually get used to the concept of Lux, let them study and understand it.

[Aurrin]

Not to mention that, when all is said and done, the ties that bind the strongest at an international level are economic. The best strategy in the long-haul for the Rac-conans is to make it in the humans' best interests to not want them gone, and with Luxcraft they could very easily do so. Heck, they don't even have to tell that it's not magic up front at first. They can get into that later. The misunderstandings don't mean that the goods aren't still very valuable or usable, just that they aren't understood properly. Time for that will come later, once the ties are established. But once a village or two is economically tied to the Rac'cona, they'll have some backing to expand through trade and purchase legitimately.

Though, the plan isn't indefinite in scope. Not too many generations down the line they'll be where we are now: too many people and literally nowhere left for them to go. Planetary resources are finite. (That can be proven) So, too, must be the population and hence it's growth must also be finite.

[RHJunior]

one thing to remember..... a hard lesson many kingdoms and empires and communities never learned.

Gold doesn't keep you safe, it only makes you a plumper target. It's iron that keeps a nation and it's gold safe.

In order for the OTs to get open trade, they need to establish a strong military..... one that will be obviously too strong for any ruthless types to even consider tackling.


the XPs on the other hand, wish to merely expand... and rely on their defensive measures, as is.....

[Mikhail Dragoslav]

So what the Rac Cona need is to be an attractive trading partner and be strong and defensible enough to make any would be plunderer think twice. A Rac Cona Switzerland perhaps?

[Maxgoof]

The argument being used...that the gangs come from a society living beyond its means...sorry, there have always been gangs, in every city, rich and poor. It is not lack of space that produced squalor in the cities.

[Astral]

Expansion simply wont work. It only takes a half-way sicentific mind to realise that the swamp wouldn't be expanding if the in-flow rate is still the same from the main tributy, 'SOMEONE' will notice once it grows beyond a cirtain size. True, they can't just sit around and do nothing, thats just as dangerous. Expantion may work if they could scout out locations. Humans perpusfuly settle near to a fresh water source so there's bound to be vilages up and down stream of rac'cona. Outwards, however, is more likely to be scrubland, as sugested. perhaps a 'sideways' expansion is what could be required? but still your running a high risk of humans notising.

[SolidusRaccoon]

Though, the plan isn't indefinite in scope. Not too many generations down the line they'll be where we are now: too many people and literally nowhere left for them to go. Planetary resources are finite. (That can be proven) So, too, must be the population and hence it's growth must also be finite.

Still this is before our time, still plenty of the planet to go around. Heck plenty even know. I see nothing but miles and miles and miles and miles and miles of trees out my windows. And also that's what other planets are for. Plenty of resources our there for my errrr "our" taking.

[SolidusRaccoon]

one thing to remember..... a hard lesson many kingdoms and empires and communities never learned.

Gold doesn't keep you safe, it only makes you a plumper target. It's iron that keeps a nation and it's gold safe.

In order for the OTs to get open trade, they need to establish a strong military..... one that will be obviously too strong for any ruthless types to even consider tackling.


the XPs on the other hand, wish to merely expand... and rely on their defensive measures, as is.....

And a weapon, they need a weapos so powerfull and so destructive no one will dare cross them. Withy my tech skills and their lux skills, maybe, I can create it, THE WARP BOMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Astral]

And a weapon, they need a weapos so powerfull and so destructive no one will dare cross them. Withy my tech skills and their lux skills, maybe, I can create it, THE WARP BOMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh good lord, he's trying to arm the natives again. I would have thought you'd have lerned by now sol, especialy after the penguin insudent.... do you remember the penguins? *shiver* I remember the penguins.

[SolidusRaccoon]

And a weapon, they need a weapos so powerfull and so destructive no one will dare cross them. Withy my tech skills and their lux skills, maybe, I can create it, THE WARP BOMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh good lord, he's trying to arm the natives again. I would have thought you'd have lerned by now sol, especialy after the penguin insudent.... do you remember the penguins? *shiver* I remember the penguins.

Oh please, that was just a test run, I will get it right this time.

[Astral]

Oh please, that was just a test run, I will get it right this time.

Hmmm was that the test run before or after the time you jellyfied the grarage?

[Aurrin]

Though, the plan isn't indefinite in scope. Not too many generations down the line they'll be where we are now: too many people and literally nowhere left for them to go. Planetary resources are finite. (That can be proven) So, too, must be the population and hence it's growth must also be finite.

Still this is before our time, still plenty of the planet to go around. Heck plenty even know. I see nothing but miles and miles and miles and miles and miles of trees out my windows. And also that's what other planets are for. Plenty of resources our there for my errrr "our" taking.

Actually, no, not really. Sure, you see them out your window, but that's you. You lived in one of the most priviledged areas on the entire planet. To get a better feel for the state of things, look at Africa, or India, or China. There's simply more people there than the land can support, and it's causing hundreds of thousands to starve to death or die through other hideous means.

Furthermore, the planet has to have some 'green space', that is, untouched and left intact in large quantities, to function. We've already depleted most of that, and what little is left we ( 'we' being anyone who cares, including the democrats -- the republicans don't seem to care in the least, one of the main things I hold against them ) have to fight for tooth and claw to keep people from taking it as well.

Want another example? OPEC isn't holding back any more. They're pumping out all the oil they can produce, but it isn't enough anymore. They literally cannot pump it out of the ground fast enough to meet demands.

Sadly, I think we may be about to learn the hard way that the planet can only support so many people. And it will be the people in third-world countries who pay the price for our (and their) arrogance.