Prepared for Battle

[StrangeWulf13]

Another note before I go:

Predestination has always struck me as a form of elitism. After all, you can just look at your group and say they are "predestined" for heaven, and then look at another group (say gamblers or other sinners) and say they are "predestined" for hell. You can't alter either group's fate, so why bother trying?

And yet, you could be the one to turn around the life of a person in that second group, if only you shared the Gospel with them.

It elevates your group to a sort of "chosen people" while condemning the "sinners" to their grisly fate.

It strikes me as lazy Christianity, and I hate that in all its forms.

For heaven's sake, this is religion founded by a Jewish carpenter! What the heck makes you think you can pull stuff like this and gain His favor?

Stop this nonsense and try witnessing sometime. You may be surprised how much free will you actually have.

[Narnian]

Predestination has always struck me as a form of elitism.

Like it or not it is in Bible. Romans 8:28-30

28)And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according go His purpose. 29) For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; 30) and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

You may disagree with the Bible in this point, that is fine. But you cannot deny what it says.

And yet, you could be the one to turn around the life of a person in that second group, if only you shared the Gospel with them.

Who said they were incompatible? I believe in the sovereignty of God and that obediance to him is important - and that includes spreading the Gospel. I have no idea who God is calling, but he has told me to share the good news to everyone.

For heaven's sake, this is religion founded by a Jewish carpenter! What the heck makes you think you can pull stuff like this and gain His favor?.

Pull what stuff? God's favor is given to whom He wants - I don't decide.

Stop this nonsense and try witnessing sometime. You may be surprised how much free will you actually have.

Like I said, I do. Why do you presume so much about me without talking with me?

[Narnian]

Would you mind explaining how God can simply consign you to hell before you've done anything and still have that be freedom?

Adam consigned us all to hell with the Fall:

Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

That is why I want to give Adam a dope slap.

As I said, our nature is now corrupt - read Romans chapter 3. We have freedom to choose whatever we want - that is the key, what WE want. And it sure ain't God.

[Narnian]

Greetings

Hello, Captian Regex Barbary (?). Nice avatar - homemade?

Some of us will do things that will effect the entire world, others might only effect themselves, and those close to them.. The choices in our lives are still ours. The learning, or lack thereof is ours. Our choices do matter. The game is ulimately his.

A simple yet elegant summary.

[Aurrin]

That is true. But in the legalistic sense there is a third option. That would be one of living a perfect life without going to God. In the strictest, most hypothetical sense, it is technically possible. So is an isentropic process. Neither happen in practice. However, man does then technically have a choice.

I believe that a perfect life isn't good enough - that is the falacy of looking at the law as a possible salvation mechanism. The Bible doesn't offer that option - it says Jesus is the only way. The reason for the law was to reflect God's character and show us our sinfulness so we turn to Him, not try to do better. Doing better (sanctification) will follow if we go to God (and keep going to him.)

As for the rest we should probably take it offline to keep everyone else from having their eyes glazing over. And my break is over ...

It doesn't offer that option because no one can actually obtain it. It's a theorietical, hypothetical outcome, one never obtained in reality. Something like the asymptote of a mathematical function: technically a solution but never achievable.

But in the Old Testament, they didn't have Jesus. As I explained at some length in the other topic, the Old Testament showed why you need Jesus by showing that other game plans just don't work. Not because the plans are flawed, but because the people are flawed.

[Narnian]

But in the Old Testament, they didn't have Jesus.

But they did - He was the promise to come, yet He was also the God of the OT. He was the creator (all things are made by Him and through Him (Jn 1:3). And many met Him - theophonies - pre-incarnate appearances of Christ in the OT. Jesus was the one who walked with Adam in the garden, wrestled with Jacob, in the furnace with Shadrach et al. And many more. It is clear that God the Father doesn't have a physical body so these have to be Jesus, the only person of the Trinity with a body.

In short, the OT is all about Jesus! Read it with that in mind and it is amazing where you will find Him!

[The JAM]

[...unWARP!!!]

Good evening.

Predestination has always struck me as a form of elitism.

Like it or not it is in Bible. Romans 8:28-30

28)And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according go His purpose. 29) For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; 30) and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Let's take one part:

29) For whom He foreknew, He also predestined

And WHO did He foreknew?

**Every single person on this PLANET**

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

That was the reason God made people in the first place!! THAT was what our "default" destiny was SUPPOSED to be! Now, whether YOU choose to go there, that's YOUR decision.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand [those who chose to accept His Predestined Path], Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

"Predestined" doesn't mean that it's where you go regardless of what you do. It was the ORIGINAL plan, but Adam kinda screwed things up for everyone.

[TinklePit]

He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son

Predestined. Predestination. Pre-destination. The destination decided before hand. Notice that nothing is indicated about the path taken to that destination.

Paul tells us that as Christians we have been given the destination of becoming like Christ. We shall be conformed to His image. But what path we take to get there is not specified. Do we take the fast track? Do we spend 40 years in the wilderness? Doesn't matter, the destination remains the same.

Plus, as The JAM pointed out, the destination can be changed. Just like with Jonah's prophecy. Ninevah was predestined to be destroyed in so many days, but God changed that destination based on the responce of the people.

So while we can take comfort in knowing that our loving Father has prepared a destination for us, it really doesn't limit us to the extent that a HyperCalvanist would have us believe.

[Narnian]

The destination decided before hand. Notice that nothing is indicated about the path taken to that destination.

Wholeheartedly agree. My own path has been nothing I expected.

Plus, as The JAM pointed out, the destination can be changed. Just like with Jonah's prophecy. Ninevah was predestined to be destroyed in so many days, but God changed that destination based on the responce of the people.

Not certain Jonah is a good example for you - it seems to prove the opposite:

1. Jonah tried not to go to Ninevah but God exerted a little influence and Jonah ended up doing what God wanted. His path was not expected but the destination remained the same.

2. Jonah didn't want to go because he knew the people would repent - that is what God wanted but Jonah was bigoted and wanted the heathen to perish. God had to remind Jonah who was in charge. The repentance of Ninevah was God's purpose from the beginning, not destruction.

So while we can take comfort in knowing that our loving Father has prepared a destination for us, it really doesn't limit us to the extent that a HyperCalvanist would have us believe.

Trust me, I ain't no HyperCalvinist. Neither was John Calvin.

If you look at the threads you will see that I have been arguing for freedom to make choices, but I have been pointing out that our decisions are influenced by our nature - which is molded by the environment, education, genetics and the Fall. And we make decisions consistent with our nature.

[Mad Mike]

One of my favorite quotes:

Albert Einstein - "God doesn't play dice with the universe."

Enrico Fermi - "Albert, stop telling God what to do!"

I think that it is the ultimate form of hubris for anyone to assume that they know what God will do for any particular set of circumstances. He IS God, after all. The human mind is incapable of grasping the least of his thoughts, try as we might.

[Narnian]

Enrico Fermi - "Albert, stop telling God what to do!"

I thought it was Niels Bohr?

[SolidusRaccoon]

Would you mind explaining how God can simply consign you to hell before you've done anything and still have that be freedom?

Adam consigned us all to hell with the Fall:

Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

That is why I want to give Adam a dope slap.

Yes, and Eve was perfectly innocent? I don't think so.

[Mad Mike]

Enrico Fermi - "Albert, stop telling God what to do!"

I thought it was Niels Bohr?

You may be right - I didn't take the time to look it up. The point, however, is the same.

[Narnian]

Yes, and Eve was perfectly innocent? I don't think so.

She was probably a blond ...

[Kerry Skydancer]

Enrico Fermi - "Albert, stop telling God what to do!"

I thought it was Niels Bohr?

Robert Oppenheimer, according to Feynman (who says he was there).

[Maxgoof]

Would you mind explaining how God can simply consign you to hell before you've done anything and still have that be freedom?

Adam consigned us all to hell with the Fall:

Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

That is why I want to give Adam a dope slap.

Yes, and Eve was perfectly innocent? I don't think so.

As I understand it, no, Eve is not innocent. However, her mistake could have been reversed had Adam not fallen. Once Adam had fallen, it was irreversable, and required someone else to come in the position of Unfallen Adam to correct, which is why the Messiah had to be male.

[Fusion]

Seriously good comic, Ralph. 8)


Quentin is going to look moth eaten when he heals unless good healing magics are available to the Rac'conan.

Of course, if you decided to end Tales of the Questor with the March 13th strip, that'd be a pretty impressive climax to end the series with.

The legend of Quentyn the Questor is just begining.

Beggining????? When I came to this comic, I thought I found a legend.

[SolidusRaccoon]

Seriously good comic, Ralph. 8)


Quentin is going to look moth eaten when he heals unless good healing magics are available to the Rac'conan.

Of course, if you decided to end Tales of the Questor with the March 13th strip, that'd be a pretty impressive climax to end the series with.

The legend of Quentyn the Questor is just begining.

Beggining????? When I came to this comic, I thought I found a legend.

What I meant was we ain't seen nothing yet. Imagine stories that would make this current one look small in comparison