IMPORTANT CHANGES MAY BE IN THE WORKS

Dedos · Post by **Dedos** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:33 am

Dilemma!Here's the thing (for me): Your comic is of superior quality, and deserves something better than Keenspace, but you will lose the "ease of entry" to new readers. Especially for a serial comic - it's tough to get a reader hooked on your stuff when you walk onto the book in the middle.Maybe the current page and X number of pages (ideally from the start of the story) could be made available for the public?Besides that one little gripe, I think it's phenom. $3 a month seems very (if not too) reasonable for a whole bevy of comics as excellent as yours.
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.c. ^o_O^
<A HREF="http://dedos.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>http://dedos.keenspace.com</A>

Kevin Wolf · Post by **Kevin Wolf** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 3:31 am

You've got to do what you've got to do, Jim, and if something better than Keenspace beckons, jump on it. However, I do agree with the previous post that new readers are a lot easier to get and keep for free. The notion of having to pay to read your archives is not going to appeal to the average click-happy net junkie when there are MOUNTAINS of free material to be found out there, much of it pornographic. And man, there is NO stiffer competition for a reader's attention than free pornography. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/wink.gif">If there's a system by which, maybe, the first five to ten pages are free, plus the current page, and you have to pay to fill in the blanks, I can see that working, but John Q. Netizen is not, in general, going to want to pay even the incredibly reasonable amount we're discussing to read back pages.Here's the thing: If it's good for you, do it. You know you've already hooked all of us on your sweet narcotic. We're not going anywhere. The question you need to ask, I guess, is where the NEW readers are to be found. Here at Keenspace, or over at this new thing? If they've got the sort of clout you're hinting at, maybe it will be better at the new outfit.It's gonna be sad to lose you if you leave, Jim. You're a rare class act in a sea of mediocrity.P.S. You never know, maybe The Powers That Be will panic and 'spot you just to keep you from leaving. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif">------------------
Kevin Wolf
Mythocorp, International
http://mythocorp.keenspace.com

Zubkavich · Post by **Zubkavich** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 4:49 am

I'll try to address everyone's questions:Annabell:
-I can reference previous strips. The story won't change at all. I will probably have some sort of text recap to get new people up to date.- There will be a forum. Unless Keenspace wants to boot me, the newest page (which is free until it hits the archive) would be mirrored here at Keenspace at this address. Therefore, this will probably stay as the forum. If not, I'll get an easy board or the new site will have a message board as part of the site. The forum will be open to all.
Dedos:
- I'll have a way to recap previous story info. Obviously, it won't be as good as reading it... but at least people will be up to speed.
Kevin:
- Porno is at least $10 a month <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif">
heh... okay, I found that funny, anyways... - One of the Spotted that I talked to mentioned something similar about me being Spotted because of this. I'm not doing this to be a prima-donna and I've got no expectations.I hope more people post their thoughts. ------------------
Jim Zubkavich
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The Makeshift Miracle <A HREF="http://www.makeshiftmiracle.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.makeshiftmiracle.com</A>
------------------[This message has been edited by Zubkavich (edited 02-01-2002).]

ZOMBIE USER 4659 · Post by **ZOMBIE USER 4659** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 4:58 am

Man, that sounds like a really good offer, and I'd hate to say anything that really might take you away from getting what you deserve for the comic, but honestly ... I'm really not all that keen on it (pun NOT intended)
Like it was said before, new readers will have a hard time of getting into it, I know I'm hooked and I'll be reading it till the end, but ... I would hate to have to go somewhere and not have internet access and miss it (which I've had to do more often these days)
It's kinda something awkward to ask us. I know I want the best for you, but I have no method for paying for it over the net. (as I'm one year away from getting a credit card) *sigh**goes off to save all the comics before it's too late*

Zubkavich · Post by **Zubkavich** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 8:00 am

Hi Everyone,Please read this LONG post over and give me your thoughts. It's important for me to get feedback from people about this. Even if you've NEVER posted before and normally just peruse the boards, let me know what you think in e-mail or here at the forum.It's been an exciting couple of days for me. I received an offer 2-3 days ago and have been looking into it quite heavily before I make any final decisions. As you guys on the forums are the most vocal fans I've got... I'd like to know what you think.There's a group of web comic cartoonists who are starting a new web comics "hub" (much like KeenSpot). The focus will be on a lot more "serial" stories, as opposed to daily gag strips.Here's a quick overview of how it would work:- The newest page of each story on the site is FREE. As long as people show up each day for updates (in my case Mon/Wed/Fri), people would NOT have to pay to read Makeshift Miracle.- Older pages in the archives can only be accessed by subscribers.- Subscriptions are $2-3 a month. Subscribers get access to exclusive content as well as full archives for all the stories on the site.- Creators are paid a fee up front when the site begins (which is relatively soon). In addition, after 6 months the creators are paid more based on subscriptions and traffic, after server costs... (split up based on who brought in the most traffic etc.) People referring to you as the reason they signed, as well as the volume of traffic viewing your content would net the creator a bonus.- All rights are retained by creator (copyright, ownership, print, tv, whatever). If you choose not to renew the contract after 6 months, you're free and clear and your rights to show all the content on the web is yours again.- The majority of money goes right to the creators!- There are no banner ads!- Some of the other creators lined up are people who have done indy comics in print, won awards, or have substantial audiences on-line already. I'm really sorry, but I don't know if I can be more specific than that just yet. Needless to say, our respective audiences would ideally grow from cross polinating and from promoting the site as a whole. Plus, subscribing would give you access to 12-20 creator's web comics and exclusives that are all ready to go.
Although they've been working on it for a while, it's finally coming to fruition in the next month or so. 
And I've been invited aboard.
So...What's everyone's thoughts? It would be amazing to receive some money for what I'm doing and grow substantially under the group's banner. Don't get me wrong, the Paypal donations are greatly appreciated, but this would be substantially more. Plus, I still retain full control of content, etc.Will the cries of "sell-out" emerge here? I don't know. I'd like to think that what I'm doing here at Makeshift is worth something. I'm still telling the same story and you can still read it for FREE, if you want to. If you feel that this group is worth your $2-3 a month, then you can support it. If not, just show up on the days you want to read your favorite strips there.Don't get me wrong, I'd love to make my way up to KeenSpot some day... but I've gotta think carefully about this and decide where to make the push forward.
Thoughts and comments... thanks in advance for your time.------------------
Jim Zubkavich
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The Makeshift Miracle
<A HREF="http://www.makeshiftmiracle.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.makeshiftmiracle.com</A>
------------------[This message has been edited by Zubkavich (edited 01-30-2002).]

Annabel Lee116 · Post by **Annabel Lee116** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 10:33 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Zubkavich:
- The newest page of each story on the site is FREE. As long as people show up each day for updates (in my case Mon/Wed/Fri), people would NOT have to pay to read Makeshift Miracle.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
'k, Jim, obviously MM is your hard work and the result of your creativity and talent...therefore, the ultimate decision is obviously yours....I image I'd want to get something for all my time & effort if I had a webcomic or similiar scaled projI do have a question about though
in above quote you say that people will have to pay to see archieves....what happens if the site goes down for a week or something and files don't load properly, would non-subscribers miss out on that entirely?also, does this prevent you from referencing a previous strip to explain the current one
ie random reader 'wait, girls falling from the sky, what?'........Jim 'go see page x at the beginning of book one''nother question, will there be a forum still and if so, will it be paying customers only?sorry this was such a long message, hope it makes sense

Templar · Post by **Templar** » Thu Jan 31, 2002 7:36 am

I think if you feel it's something that works for you, you should do it.Buuuuuut...(and you knoew there was a but, right?) while I understand that you can recap people with a little text, etc., it's really not the same. Having "pay per view" arhives is going to make attracting new readers a little difficult. I think you should go for it, and I reckon I'd cough up a little dough for the archives (though frankly, I think I'd *really* enjoy a print copy of the story, and I bet I'm not alone), but it *may* hurt you in the long run in terms of readership.OTOH, who knows? I started reading The Sandman at issue #22, and spent the next three months obsessively searching for the prior 21 issues, because it was just that good. And before you demur with some "Well, I'm not Neil Gaiman" thing, no, no, you're not. But I think you could be; MM is just that intriguing and it does have that mystical sensibility. Frankly, I'd tell any Gaiman fan to read your strip.Anyway, enough praise, for fear that it might look insincere. I just want to let you know there are pitfalls to what you're going to do, but the rewards are there too. Final balance? On the side of "Go for it."

Izanobu · Post by **Izanobu** » Thu Jan 31, 2002 11:34 am

well, on the one hand, it would be great to see good webcomics being supported money-wise, but on the other, one of the best things about web comics as opposed to print comics is that they are usually free. when i started reading web comics i read about three, that number has grown to about 33... and while some are fabulous and what i consider "print quality" (as in, if they were in print i would pay for them)... many of the comics i read aren't under that domain. Makeshift Miracle is one of my favorites, but i can't honestly say i would buy it if it were in print... although i might if that was the only way to get my Makeshift Miracle fix each week <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif">
Also... seems like doing this idea with serial comics is just mean. you read a comic for a week or two, and suddenly you are hooked and would love to spend a few hours reading the archives... and the only way to do that is to shell out the bucks... which will probably scare off many potential readers. it is one thing to decide to donate because you are a fan, or because the comic is in danger of death from all the traffic(like the case of 8-bit theatre for a while)... it is quite another thing to HAVE to give money if you want the full benefits of reading a good storyline. and comics are about visuals as well as words... so a synopsis of plot to date really wouldn't cut it.
to use a bad example... porn. there is lots of porn on the net. i like porn (i am an odd girl, ok?), but i can find porn for free that is just as good as the porn sites make me want to pay for... so which porn do you think i am going to actually look at? the free porn, duh! so i think it might be counter to the idea of getting good comics read...
probably my angst at even thinking of having to pay to enjoy comic is that i am unemployed and eternally broke.
anyway...sorry for the rant here. but my vote is just say no to making me pay for comic <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif">------------------
Izanobu of <A HREF="http://www.pastdark.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.pastdark.com</A>

Krank · Post by **Krank** » Thu Jan 31, 2002 12:16 pm

I agree with Plutonium.But, it's still your decision, Jim.Problems for me:
1) I have no credit card and I have no intention of getting one. I might get one later just to be able to get a subscription for this comic =)2) My job is the only place where I can access Internet. Therefore, I cannot see anything on the web during my vacations. Therefore, each vacation would literally be HELL, as I would miss out several pages of MM.3) Also, I will be leaving this job soon, severaly disabling my Internet-perusing. I will only be able to access Internet maybe once a week.
Oh, well. Maybe I'll get myself a darn creditcard then.*silently joins Plutonium in saving all previous strips*

Tar Baby · Post by **Tar Baby** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 4:02 am

i would pay to read your comic. and i think any story stitched together so tightly as to intrigue a new reader in one or two daily strips is weighty enough to bring in the business for the sake of the archives.------------------
he hath not so much brain as ear wax

Zubkavich · Post by **Zubkavich** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 5:15 am

I'm appreciating everyone's feedback here, good and bad. Nothing's been set in stone as of yet, so I'm looking carefully at all the options.The more I know about how people feel on this topic, the better choice I can make.------------------
Jim Zubkavich
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The Makeshift Miracle <A HREF="http://www.makeshiftmiracle.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.makeshiftmiracle.com</A>
------------------[This message has been edited by Zubkavich (edited 02-01-2002).]

Kevin Wolf · Post by **Kevin Wolf** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 6:34 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Izanobu:
to use a bad example... porn. there is lots of porn on the net. i like porn (i am an odd girl, ok?), but i can find porn for free that is just as good as the porn sites make me want to pay for... so which porn do you think i am going to actually look at? the free porn, duh!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Precisely the point I was trying to make earlier! Except, I'm not a girl. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif">------------------
Kevin Wolf
Mythocorp, International
http://mythocorp.keenspace.com

Piano Guy · Post by **Piano Guy** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 6:35 am

My dilemna...I've been working on a Makeshift Miracle screen saver. Once it was done, I was going to run it by you and see what you thought about it. It's designed so that from Settings, the user can update the screen saver and get the latest picture. It would be done by now, except that my website, where I was planning on hosting the updates, is down. (I was also going to let you host the updates yourself if you wanted to, but for testing purposes I was doing it my website, because it's pretty specific on the format - the updates not only update to "today"'s webstrip, but update the screen saver itself when I (or you) have a better idea on how the screen saver should work.)I suppose the same people that would subscribe to your webcomic would also have the rights to the screen saver, and the people not subscribing wouldn't.Obviously this is all in the air, because I haven't even asked you for permission to make this screen saver. If you're interested in seeing a semi-complete version of the screen saver, either post here or <a href="mailto:JoshBBall@juno.com">e-mail</a> me, and I'll send it to you.Great work on your webstrip. I wouldn't pay for any comic strip but yours.

Mel · Post by **Mel** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 7:06 am

*peeks in for the first time* er.. hi? One of my best friends is also an online cartoonist, and i filled in for her for a week, and beleive me, that was hard enough. these thiings are a lot of work! So I think it's great that the artists can get some compensation, and, well, this way sounds better than a system where you have to pay for EVERYTHING, even the current daily strip...
Now this membershipfee would allow us to read ALL the comics on the site, or would it be $3 for EACH comic we wanted to read? I read several more serial comics that could possibly end up there as well, so while for just one comic i may never get around to it, for 10-20 good comics, it woudl seem a small price.
Though if it's that amount for ALL comics, how doed that get split amoung the artists? Hmm. well, anyway. *L*

John2two · Post by **John2two** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 7:14 am

Like the others, I'll follow you wherever you go, Jim. I'd probably even pay the membership $ at the proposed hub.Keep in mind, though, that like with most other aspects of the web, the value of a new webcomics hub grows with the exponent of the number of participants. You talk about this new site starting with 10-20 creators. That sounds like a dangerously small number to me. Were I in your shoes, I'd be much more comfortable if that number were closer to 50 or 100. It would also depend on who the players were and what aggregate hitcount they were bringing to the party.One lesson that Keen has demonstrated is that the economics of funding the server farm and bandwidth for acceptable response time is very tight. Your proposed site has a more direct revenue model than Keen's ad-centric one, but the percentage of fans who will pay for their membership is unlikely to be much higher than the percentage Keen gets to pay for their membership scheme. If any of the principles in the group that is courting you thinks they are going to live off the income this plan will generate, they either must be bringing millions of daily readers to the table or they ought to have their head (read: business plan) examined.While you have little to lose from moving (goodwill with Keen most prominent), I would advise you only to do so if the new group is anchored by several very strong strips and a conservative business plan based on solid, 2002 site economics. Since you have access to those details and can not share them with us, you will need to be the judge.Best regards, and thanks again for a truly great comic,
John2two (John Scott)

DarkWolf_777 · Post by **DarkWolf_777** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 7:14 am

As others have said, I feel it's a bad move. Not that I wouldn't pay to read the comics, but as others have said, the money will dry up quickly, as people realize "Oh, I can just copy the entire archives after only paying for one month! Then all I have to do is show up on the update days." Definitely not a good business model to begin with.Also, you have concerns about having a stable place to have the comics. Any "spot" is going to be unstable at times, as unless they're talking about opening up a building, with dedicated servers, and bandwidth galore... having a lot of popular comics on the same server (or possibly servers) is going to seriously eat up bandwidth, and the costs could start outweighing the subscriptions rather quickly.If you want a stable place to put your comic, my suggestion would be to get hosted somewhere. The place we've got Lethal Death hosted at is very reasonably priced, and they claim unlimited page hits and transfers. Which unless they've changed the definitions of those words... that means unlimited bandwidth. Eliminate the middle man (as others have suggested, ala Megatokyo and Penny Arcade). That's the best business model. Having to share the profits with 10 or 20 others (and not evenly shared, but based on who's most popular / most subscribers) ... I don't see that venture as being very lucrative for you, or anyone else involved. If you can afford reasonably priced hosting, and take in donations as you're currently doing, I don't doubt that you'll come out ahead by striking out on your own.So there's my vote. In a rather large nutshell <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"> Hook up with a good host.------------------
DarkWolf
[ <A HREF="http://www.lethaldeath.com" TARGET=_blank>Lethal Death</A> | <A HREF="http://www.wiccajesus.com" TARGET=_blank>The Talamasca 2</A> ]

Zubkavich · Post by **Zubkavich** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 7:35 am

Mel: Welcome to the forums! That fee would be for ALL the material at the website, not just mine.
If I was lucky enough to make it up to KeenSpot some day, then the extra exposure for Makeshift would be pretty incredible. It would be far easier for me to expand the audience under their banner. Makeshift isn't really like anything else that KeenSpot has right now, which could mean it could fill a niche there, or maybe it means that it wouldn't fit in at all. I don't know...It's not so much that I expect to live off of Makeshift Miracle or anything crazy like that... telling the story is the most important part for me.This new site has some pretty decent people behind it. A lot of variety in terms of content. Indy-style stories, gag strips and longer serial stories like Makeshift.The problem is, of course, possibly losing people because the archives get locked away and not being able to hook new people because they don't get grabbed by the most current page. It's something I've gotta weigh out in my brain and prioritize.------------------
Jim Zubkavich
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The Makeshift Miracle
http://www.makeshiftmiracle.com
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JPSloan · Post by **JPSloan** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 7:44 am

Hi, Jim!Here's the deal as other comic/columnists have put it before...There is an ocean of space between 1 cent and 0 cents. People don't pay for online content. And by people, I mean the vast majority of people, not the few who keep these ventures going.That's the present state of affairs. Now, will this change? All signs point to "no". Ultimately, I'd imagine your ambition goes beyond 'Spot, to being in print. And the point that I'd imagine would be the most convincing for Hub is that you're shoulder-to-shoulder with those who are already in print. That's significant. Name recognition and brand recognition are vital for someone like you who's "got the goods", so to speak, to get into print.I'd have to predict you'd lose readership sharply, but you'd gain the notice of industry folk. Which would you rather?------------------
Sawdust - Got wood? <A HREF="http://sawdust.keenspace.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://sawdust.keenspace.com/</A>

Zubkavich · Post by **Zubkavich** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 7:56 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by JPSloan:

I'd have to predict you'd lose readership sharply, but you'd gain the notice of industry folk. Which would you rather?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Good point! Actually, a lot of people are making strong points here, but yours is quite sharp.Still, the print industry could be impressed by a large enough number of free readers. Scott Kurtz's PVP had a large enough fanbase from his free strip that he could migrate to print and make it work.I don't think going to this new site means I'm shooting just for print, but I understand what you're saying. There's obviously a lot of factors involved.------------------
Jim Zubkavich
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The Makeshift Miracle
http://www.makeshiftmiracle.com
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Eclipse · Post by **Eclipse** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 8:21 am

Hi Jim,I agree with many of the above posts re: losing new readers due to the sealed archives, but I also feel that the new strips are done well enough that if a new reader were to read a few as they came out, they'd have no problem paying for the archives to read the entire story.The problem of missing a daily could easily be solved by making a whole week (instead of one or two days) available for free before it goes into the archives.hile a lot of people ar adverse to spending anything on internet content, I se the day coming when online payments won't be so unusual (nor should they be - but that's another discussion). I would (even though I've read the archives) immediately sign-up to support the strip. I'm of a mind that quality needs to be paid for. I've been paying roughly the same as a regular comic via the Paypal donations, and I intend to continue to do so.I'm confident you will make the best decision for you and MM, so please know you have my support for what ever happens.------------------
Fly the friendly skys!