Buh? (8-4-2004)

Buh? (8-4-2004)

Postby Jackiesfridge on Wed Aug 04, 2004 6:54 am

*falls over and twitches uncontrollably*
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Indeed.

Postby Bushipunk on Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:09 am

Well, yeah. Didn't really see that coming. Hook's going to be pissed, whether that would actually be fatal to Maria or not.

So... Is this is a form of mind control Jack can overcome with the Chains? Is there a form of mind control he can't overcome with the Chains?

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Postby Orion on Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:12 pm

definitely some major crap hitting an industrial sized fan here. Even if it doesn't kill her that looks like it had to hurt.
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Postby Seafog the 3rd on Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:34 pm

No, no, you need to say fecal matter hitting the industrial sized occilator. Fan, indeed. :P
Quite the suprise there. I wasn't expecting the expendable minions to have access to Jacks true name. I also wasn't expecting them to loose an ally this fast.
As to Maria, Matt said he wasn't sure how much damage angels, demons and devils could take. But this is probably pushing it, at the least.
I'm fairly certain that Jack can nosoul, or something, past this. It would get old pretty quick if every Tom, Dick and Hairy :P could short circuit him.
'Never appeal to a man's 'better nature'. He may not have one. Invoking his self-intrest gives you more leverage.' -Lazarus Long
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Postby Acolyte on Wed Aug 04, 2004 7:09 pm

True name? Perhaps I missed something, but I don't see the connection here. The Commander just called him Jack. I'm guessing there's some kind of "back door" built into him as a safety. After all, if you're creating something as potentially dangerous as a Kataract Sune, you want to make absolutely sure you can control him. Them, I mean. There are at least 2 others, no?

Gettting access to that back door is an issue in itself. It clearly has to do with that amulet and not something just anyone can do. Are the ghouls working for Anna and Loki, or someone else? If someone else, where did they get the amulet? I may have lost track of the players here, since I'm not all too sure who the lycanthropes in the enviro suits were working for. But Matt has cleverly allowed us to forget about Morrigan somewhat, since we don't know what she's currently up to. How is she connected with current events?

Even if no-soul would help here Jack has to enter it voluntarily. He was barely able to at the very last moment under the simple hypnosis of the gorgon. This appears to be rather deeper.

Of course, in this situation he was screwed either way. Had he agreed to go peacefully, could the Lovecraftian ghoul in the Nazi uniform be trusted to keep his word? I don't know, but something tells me NO!
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Postby Guildenstern on Wed Aug 04, 2004 10:26 pm

I think he'd be true to his word. They'd leave, free and clear. They just wouldn't get very far. Likewise, I'm not sure just how far this is going to get. Like Thera, Fred, or anyone else is just going to let Jack keep shooting at them? Or let the leader of the Rotting Reich keep the amulet? Jack may be a Kataract Sune, but what does that mean against a non-magical psychic squid, an Atlantean goddess, and a few other people who have guns?

And I gotta say, love the expression on Maria's face. Bet someone wishes they had their camera!
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Postby Seafog the 3rd on Wed Aug 04, 2004 11:46 pm

@Acolyte
The connection is that, according to Matt, true names are quite powerful. Even unto the 'back door' you mention. I believe Matt even mentioned that true names were one of the Kataract Sune's few weakness', so it would make sense to use it to capture Jack. We also know that at least some of the Elder Things know Jack's true name, hense be able to create devices that incorporate said name. Ghoulie and Shan both work for Elder Things. I was suprised they would give such an item to beings I'm assuming are fairly low on the totem pole.
The ghoul would probably have kept his word. Securing a prize of Jacks scale, willingly, for such a trifle in return... he'd have to be mad to jeprodise that. You have to remember, Thera and company mean absolutely nothing to the ghoulie, except as obstacles. If they stop being obstacles, they leave his equasion of the situation (except for Hook as a potential snack).
Good point on the no-soul.
@Guildenstern
They're not going to let him keep shooting, but he will cause havoc, probably enough to give them a good chance at completing thier mission.
'Never appeal to a man's 'better nature'. He may not have one. Invoking his self-intrest gives you more leverage.' -Lazarus Long
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Postby Orion on Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:10 am

Looks like Jack's a faster shot than we gave him credit for, although I did anticipate the problem Thera posed. Real question is, did the enemy? I'd assume no, otherwise she would have been target #1, jack or no jack unless they are very overconfident. Its interesting to note she's not bulletproof, her lungs just don't seem to mind them very much. We can assume that Maria has a significant chance of survival, Frank I'll put as a shallow maybe, but I get the distinct impression Ariel takes bullets about as well as ordinary humans, but unless I've got her anatomy or the angle wrong, thats a shoulder wound, interesting considering that might be considered a violation of the order, or maybe just a matter of speed over accuracy.

As far as the True Name/backdoor thing...we don't have the info. I don't know how the thaumodynamics (yes I made that word up, I think it sounds neat) of using a True Name work in this universe anyway, I think traditionally it needs to be included in the command somehow, written or spoken. But we also know from experience with the gorgon that without the chains Jack is not immune to mind control in any reasonable way. All the ghoul would need is a decent mind-bending artifact, and Jack is definitely the most useful, and without the chains the most vulnerable. Ariel and Frank are psychics, Maria is angelic, Hook seems unarmed, and Thera...is Thera.


*Orion stops speculating and anticipates more comics*
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Postby Acolyte on Thu Aug 05, 2004 1:52 am

Seafog the 3rd wrote:Ghoulie and Shan both work for Elder Things. <snip>Securing a prize of Jacks scale, willingly, for such a trifle in return... he'd have to be mad to jeprodise that.


Um. Yeah. Mad gods and all that.

You have to remember, Thera and company mean absolutely nothing to the ghoulie, except as obstacles.


Possibly. I'm not sure we can say with certainty who's on whose side at this point. If this was a strictly Lovecraftian universe I'd agree with you, but aside from the obvious inspiration of certain of its features I don't think we can assume that.

They're not going to let him keep shooting,


Apparently they will until he runs out of ammo.

orion wrote:I think traditionally it needs to be included in the command somehow, written or spoken.

My take on it exactly. This is more likely some other kind of mind control, Kataract Sune backdoor, or something else.
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Postby Guildenstern on Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:08 am

Hm. You know, Frank didn't even get hit... the squid did. One wonders what that means to Frank, exactly. Got to leave him disoriented at least, I expect.
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Postby Zerethkat on Thu Aug 05, 2004 7:02 am

Guildenstern wrote:Hm. You know, Frank didn't even get hit... the squid did. One wonders what that means to Frank, exactly. Got to leave him disoriented at least, I expect.


He's undead. Therefore he has, in fact, already been killed and thus Jack doesn't need to do anything. You'll notice he didn't seem to target Hook either.

(Or maybe he just put Hook and Frankie(as opposed to The Squid) on the bottom of his priority list, since I'm pretty sure they're the least dangerous of their little band of merry... beings. Thera being next to last since she's the hardest to take down, and Jack could take everybody else one bullet apeice.)

As for Ariel, I don't think the fact that he didn't shoot her in the head is a coincedence, but problaby some part of Jack in there that's not under cotnrol subverting the order slightly. You'll notice he didn't shoot Thera in the head _either_.
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Postby Orion on Thu Aug 05, 2004 7:27 am

Guildenstern wrote:Hm. You know, Frank didn't even get hit... the squid did. One wonders what that means to Frank, exactly. Got to leave him disoriented at least, I expect.


Well, the squid is Frank, the squid just controls the boney fella for a useful ride. So frank looks pretty out, depending on alien squid/bullet interaction, but nothing says that the skeleton won't regain independent thought again, of course nothing says the skeleton will be happy either.


I'm personally putting my money on the fact that the ghouls would have tried to take out the group if jack had surrendered or not. Someone as prepared as he is probably knows Thera is not the sort of enemy you leave behind you.
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Postby Bushipunk on Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:16 am

orion wrote:Looks like Jack's a faster shot than we gave him credit for, although I did anticipate the problem Thera posed. Real question is, did the enemy?


Isn't it a little odd that Jack didn't? I guess however he's being controlled, it must override his judgement completely, so he'll follow commands, but not necessarily to the best of his actual ability.

orion wrote:As far as the True Name/backdoor thing...we don't have the info. I don't know how the thaumodynamics (yes I made that word up, I think it sounds neat)...


It is now part of the language, and shall be introduced into many people's RPG campaigns forthwith. Good luck using it in conversation without sounding like a physicist with a heavy Bostonian accent, though.

orion wrote:... of using a True Name work in this universe anyway, I think traditionally it needs to be included in the command somehow, written or spoken. But we also know from experience with the gorgon that without the chains Jack is not immune to mind control in any reasonable way. All the ghoul would need is a decent mind-bending artifact, and Jack is definitely the most useful, and without the chains the most vulnerable. Ariel and Frank are psychics, Maria is angelic, Hook seems unarmed, and Thera...is Thera.


Agreed, apart from the fact that I think Hook is armed...

Say. We know Jack can "survive death" as it were; one wonders if it would break the hold of whatever artifact has him. Or at least snap him into awareness long enough to go No-Soul.

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Postby Seafog the 3rd on Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:02 pm

So the bad guys anticipated the influence of the chains. :-? And Thera has to be very careful what she throws at Jack.
I wonder if the amulet is an original or a replica. And are they made with, or hold, the true name at all.
And where's Hook? Grieving, cowering, sneaking or what?
I also don't know the nature of the relationship between Frank and the squid. I got, from the description, that the squids dealt with living minds, not animated skeletons. I keep thinking that the squid is a slacker and doesn't want the hassle of running a body and taking over the world ('Dude! Free peanuts!'). Or is going through a 10 step program. And Frank fit the bill and was amicable to a symbiotic relationship. Or Frank has no mind to speak of. :P
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Postby Bushipunk on Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:30 pm

Seafog the 3rd wrote:So the bad guys anticipated the influence of the chains. :-? And Thera has to be very careful what she throws at Jack.
I wonder if the amulet is an original or a replica. And are they made with, or hold, the true name at all.


Well, he said the Atlanteans made it. Now, Jack is very much of post-Cataclysm manufacture, so, this implies to me that either they found an Atlantean to make it, or it's old. If it's old, it probably affects Kataract-Sune in general, rather than Jack specifically. His phrasing does seem to imply it might be old, but I don't know.

If it's new, my guess is it was made by Loki (I'm getting ahead of myself and presuming he's an Atlantean Incarnate, like Thera). Would that imply these ghouls are with him, then?

Woof. I think I used my full quota of implications for this month there.

And where's Hook? Grieving, cowering, sneaking or what?


Maybe getting eaten? I hope not.

Agreed Thera has to be carefull what she throws at Jack; he eats magic, after all, and is currently at least partially under someone else's control. I'm rooting for Hook, unnoticed in all this, to pop up. I still think getting "killed" might be the opportunity Jack needs to get his Chains on.

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Postby Seafog the 3rd on Fri Aug 06, 2004 8:21 pm

I was digging through the forum and came across this choice utterance by our esteemed host:

(on compliment about developing the secondary characters)That's very gratifying to hear; part of the purpose of this particular storyline was to give some more screen time to Maria, and show more aspects of her personality. I'm glad that it seems to be working!

And now we know your insidious purpose! :evil: You worked us (and her) pretty good there. Build us up, and take her down. :cry: Now I KNOW you would be a kickass GM.
'Never appeal to a man's 'better nature'. He may not have one. Invoking his self-intrest gives you more leverage.' -Lazarus Long
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Postby Acolyte on Fri Aug 06, 2004 9:54 pm

Seafog the 3rd wrote:So the bad guys anticipated the influence of the chains.

As I anticipated.
I wonder if the amulet is an original or a replica.

Hardly matters. Genuine Atlantean artifacts must be extremely rare, but I wouldn't put it past, say, Hephaestus (or however Matt is spelling his name) to be able to cobble one together. He's one of "you Atlanteans" too, after all.
Edit: Which means the Commander just gave the game away. If Thera didn't have enough clues before, she now has a very good idea who's up against her and what they're after.
And are they made with, or hold, the true name at all.

We've been given no reason to think that it does.
And where's Hook? Grieving, cowering, sneaking or what?

Knowing Hook, probably all three.
I also don't know the nature of the relationship between Frank and the squid. I got, from the description, that the squids dealt with living minds, not animated skeletons.

Except that back here Ariel addresses Frank and says they needed his "evil brain squid". She doesn't talk to the squid directly. That suggests to me a conscious Frank.
I keep thinking that the squid is a slacker and doesn't want the hassle of running a body and taking over the world ('Dude! Free peanuts!'). Or is going through a 10 step program. And Frank fit the bill and was amicable to a symbiotic relationship. Or Frank has no mind to speak of.

I think you were right the first time here.
Last edited by Acolyte on Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Acolyte on Fri Aug 06, 2004 9:55 pm

Seafog the 3rd wrote:I was digging through the forum and came across this choice utterance by our esteemed host:

(on compliment about developing the secondary characters)That's very gratifying to hear; part of the purpose of this particular storyline was to give some more screen time to Maria, and show more aspects of her personality. I'm glad that it seems to be working!

And now we know your insidious purpose! :evil: You worked us (and her) pretty good there. Build us up, and take her down. :cry: Now I KNOW you would be a kickass GM.


But he didn't lie. It's now fair to say that we know Maria inside and out....

And can see clearly what's on her mind....

[ducks and runs]
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Postby Jackiesfridge on Sun Aug 08, 2004 11:58 am

Acolyte wrote:[ducks and runs]


The only reason to run is so that I don't smack you for beating me to the punchline...;)
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Postby Orion on Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:46 am

And the point goes to Seafog! We all doubted, but it was in fact the True Name, with the ancient atlantean artifact, in the library.
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