The Left Hand

[Acolyte]

Matt, what kind of correspondence, if any, do you mean to imply exists between the Sephiroth and Qlippoth? The Tree of Death is innately hierarchical since it's nothing but the shadow of the Tree of Life, so you obviously don't have that in mind, but there are several ways to think of this and I'm wondering which one you're basing it on.

By "Left Hand of God" I take it you're not referring to the Pillar of Severity?

[Bushipunk]

Matt, what kind of correspondence, if any, do you mean to imply exists between the Sephiroth and Qlippoth? The Tree of Death is innately hierarchical since it's nothing but the shadow of the Tree of Life, so you obviously don't have that in mind, but there are several ways to think of this and I'm wondering which one you're basing it on.

By "Left Hand of God" I take it you're not referring to the Pillar of Severity?

I wonder exactly how accurate their description is. They're obviously off about some things (they describe "God" as a he, for example, and like most of the Strange Daze universe seem to be under the impression "he" created the world)... So we find ourselves with the old problem of the unreliable narrator; if some of it isn't true, is any of it?

Bushi

[Mirober]

Matt, what kind of correspondence, if any, do you mean to imply exists between the Sephiroth and Qlippoth? The Tree of Death is innately hierarchical since it's nothing but the shadow of the Tree of Life, so you obviously don't have that in mind, but there are several ways to think of this and I'm wondering which one you're basing it on.

In the comic, the Sephiroth and Qlippoth embody dualistic characteristics and purposes. At their core, the Sephiroth represent pattern and connectivity, a world view in which all things are bound to one another. The Qlippoth, meanwhile, are self-contained and individualistic, the idea that each and every thing exists as its own universe.

Honestly, I'm just using the terms as a reference and jumping off point. My actual knowledge of the Kabbalah is pretty dismal.

By "Left Hand of God" I take it you're not referring to the Pillar of Severity?

Short answer, no. Slightly longer answer, wah who hey?

[Acolyte]

Short answer, no. Slightly longer answer, wah who hey?

Most of what I know about Qabalah I got from sources like Golden Dawn and the rest of that lot. Which is to say it's not all that close to traditional Jewish mysticism which would have been impossible for me to study even if I'd been interested. (It really requires instruction from a qualified Rabbi, and they only teach those they feel are qualified out of Orthodox Judaism. So most Jewish men do not learn it, and certainly not goyim. Which is probably how the modern mytics got it so wrong.) Since I've already read quite a bit more of this stuff than a good Orthodox Christian boy should, I'm not going to go back and look anything up beyond a detail or two I can find on the web. (Yet I find I can't reject Qabalah entirely, since some elements of the ancient Jewish system seem to have found their way into Orthodox Christian mysticism. There are some disturbing resemblences to Palamite theology, and the tripartite division of the soul described in parts of the Philokalia echoes that from the Zohar. I should add, as an intellectual exercise only; I don't ever intend to make actual use of it myself.)

If you want to find out about the GD system for yourself, read people like Dion Fortune, Israel Regardie, A.E. Waite and such, if they don't put you to sleep. Even these should be approached with caution -- but stay away from Crowley entirely. For the original Jewish system, I believe that translations of the Zohar can be had, but they should be used with caution too, since it's presupposed that a student has a qualified guide and is not embarked on a self-study program. And that you're reading it in Hebrew. Translators have a way of inserting their own interpretations of things that may or may not be correct.

The Tree of Life, if I understand it correctly, is intended to be a meditational device that allows one to noetically approach God (Ein Soph, The Infinite) through contemplation of his emanations, embodied in the Sephiroth. If you look at the Tree of Life, especially with all the pathways drawn in as the GD often did, there are a lot of interconnections but you can see it's possible to go right from Malkuth (Kingdom, the material world) -- or better, through Yesod (Foundation) -- to either Hod (Majesty) on the left, or Netzach (Victory, Eternity) on the right. From either point one might then ascend vertically; on the left through Gevurah (Severity, Judgement), Binah (Understanding), and back to the center to Kether (Crown); or on the right through Chesed (Mercy), Chochmah (Wisdom), and then to Kether. The left hand path, associated with the female, is the Pillar of Severity, while the right hand path, the male side, is the Pillar of Mercy. The discipline of those following the left-hand path often results in behaviors we think of as anti-social or destructive and which some would characterize as evil, but which the seeker is actually persuing as part of an ascent to knowledge of Ein Soph. Followers of the right-hand path are more conventionally "good".

An ascent by the central pillar, the Pillar of Mildness, which is balanced between male and female, from Yesod through Tiphareth (Beauty), Da'at (Knowledge) to Kether is also possible. A thorough student, if I understand this correctly, will actually follow none of these paths but will meditate on all the Sephiroth in turn. (Da'at is the "false" or "hidden" Sephirah, and is ususally not shown. It's not a primary emanation by itself, but is the intersection of the central pillar with the path connecting Chochmah and Binah.)

Depending on context, Qlippoth can refer to a number of things. The word means "shell" or "husk". In one context, each Sephirah is a Qliphah to those that follow since it must be passed through before the others can be attained. The image here is like the concentric rings in a tree as you pass through them to the center. In another context they're the dead husks of the Sephiroth emptied of the light of God, arranged in a "Tree of Death" that's a downward mirror image of the Tree of Life. In this system each Qlippah has a demon associated with it just as each Sephirah has its angel. This is what I was thinking of when I read today's comic and what prompted my post since it didn't really correspond.

And please let's leave Madonna out of this....

[Seafog the 3rd]

Ummm, wow!
Interesting Acolyte,I knew some of that, the rest was interesting to say the least, but I still feel like I walked into a high level religion course! Wouldn't the right be called the right hand path? That would make me think they would have to be called paths to God, and could not be simply called Hands. And reflection in this instance could be refering to several different reflections. One is the downward heirarchy, which I believe to be the weaker idea, another is a lack of heirarchy, which seems stronger to me, a truer reflection of the tree of life. Sort of a 'many paths lead to wickedness, but only one leads to richeousness' idea.
The reflection of the tree of life made me think of the opening of Evangelion, where there is some mystic drawings in the background, I wonder if some of them were reflected? It would add another layer to an already wierd show.

[Acolyte]

In terms of Matt's world, pretty much anything goes here. But one simply does not arrange RL mystical systems in a non-hierarchical fashion! Which is to say, I don't know of any like that. If they have any validity at all, God is at the top of it, and if there are any intermediate stages -- and there always are -- then you have a de facto hierarchy whether you call it that or not.

"Reflection" was my word. I believe the more usual relating Qlippoth to Sephiroth is "shadow". You might have more than one shadow if you have more than one source of light, but in Qabalah the only true source of light is Ein Soph.

I hope it came across as religious. As I said, I don't really know much about the pure Jewish system. What I tried to do was to strip out everything that seemed like a Golden Dawn accretion and add back in what little bits and pieces I've heard about the authentic version over the years. This is why I didn't mention the correspondences with colors, tarot, pagan gods, etc. That stuff all has to do with the Tree of Life as it applies to a system of ceremonal magic, not ascent to knowledge of God.

I've never seen Eva and I couldn't find any actual screenshots of the opening on the Web, but the one reference I did find indicated that they used a drawing of the Tree done by a 17th Century German priest. So it's an esoteric Christian interpretation you're seeing there -- which may look exactly like the original for all I know. Whether they used any reflected, inverted or negative versions of it I couldn't say.

I would tend to agree with you about there being only one path to righteousness, but probably for a different reason.

[Seafog the 3rd]

What reason would that be? I was raised a 'good Christian boy' myself. Thought I admit to drifting away from the specifics of the faith.

The neat thing about shadows is that they are indistinct! You can also have reflections and the resulting shadows, which kind of fits the Strange Daze version. And because this is a fantasy story, exactitude of religious systems is right out the window if it interferes with the story (which also by the by legitimizes our ramblings here, as we're only figuring out how real world systems might fit in the fantasy). Not to mention nobody knows the real story in Strange Daze.

That all sounds badly written, but I'm too tired to care right now.
G'night.

[Acolyte]

Hm. I don't think any of this will fit into Matt's system at all. My original question was really just to confirm that. This is all real-world mysticism I'm talking about here. (By which I mean it's a system people in the real world actually use. I offer no opinion on how accurate a model of spiritual reality it might be.)

And by "different reason" I was really thinking about a variant set of metaphors. But now I'm approaching the point of getting tangled up in my own ontological underwear, which isn't a pretty sight.

[Seafog the 3rd]

I disagree with the fitting part. Much of it is detail Matt did not concider or maybe even know about, but certain spins on the information will certainly fit fine. Notably the idea that the tree is heirarchal and its shadow/reflection is individualist. Personally I think it really fits better this way if you want to leave the Qlippoth serving a useful role in reality. Regardless, its been fun talking with you about this Acolyte.

As for todays comic, is that supposed to be 'The Lightbringer'? This comic implys that Lilith can still create devils, but that the Sephiroth formerly known as Keth cannot create angels. Lilith appears to be running very counter to character if she helped build a civilization. It also implys that nobody has access to Kali, that she has left reality to her 20 minions to run, and that she only came back relatively recently. Contact had to have been restored by the time Thera was made a working angel, as we know Kali authorised it, and that was a few hundred years ago (or maybe only 100, I forget). This also implys that the demonic horde is over time becomming less 'angelic', more mortal and 'devilish'. Not to mention wholly more evil, at least if the bottle is any indication. It's also interesting to note that Lucifer is a reduced Sephiroth and not an angel at all. So there are 9 Sephiroth left in Heaven, part of one in Hell, one free and 2 captive Qlippoth in Hell, 3 dead Qlippoth, and 4 free. I'm assuming you made this part up, did you, or is this story told somewhere really old?
Do you have names for all 20 Matt? What source did you use? And what are all 20 names?
Have you concidered setting up a Wiki for your world? A Strangewiki?
Overall cool info Matt, where to next?

[Acolyte]

Notably the idea that the tree is heirarchal and its shadow/reflection is individualist.

Both trees are hierarchical. That's one reason it doesn't appear to fit.

Regardless, its been fun talking with you about this Acolyte.

Hey, any other time I can help to completely cloud up an issue, just let me know!

One thing I should mention is that I don't know if the idea of the left, right and center pillars is actually Jewish or was introduced by the GD. One reason I doubt is is because there's not usually a connection drawn in between Tiphareth and Kether in the older diagrams -- IOW there's no central path. I'd have left the idea out of my description if it wasn't the point of my original question.

As for todays comic, is that supposed to be 'The Lightbringer'?

Well, it sure looks like a fallen angel swearing vengeance against heaven...

This comic implys that Lilith can still create devils, but that the Sephiroth formerly known as Keth cannot create angels.

Does it? How do you get that?

Lilith appears to be running very counter to character if she helped build a civilization. It also implys that nobody has access to Kali, that she has left reality to her 20 minions to run, and that she only came back relatively recently. (snippage)

I wonder how much of this we should take as read. (About this last part at least, even Teeth wasn't too sure about what he was saying.) Remember that the demons and angels are really Ideovore recruited for these roles by Kali, and that over time they'd come to identify with them so completely they forgot where they came from. That, plus the fact they seem to have mistaken the being on the throne with a tit hanging out for a male, suggests a good part of what was really going on was concealed from them.

(Um. It was Kali with the tit, not the throne.)

Anway....

We may be seeing a very garbled account of the Ontology Wars here, with perhaps some faint recollection of the Antediluvian world.

It's also interesting to note that Lucifer is a reduced Sephiroth and not an angel at all.

In Matt's system, Sephiroth (singular Sephirah) are a variety of angel. That's another point where there's no fit.

What we're not getting so far is the part Chaos has played in all this. I can't believe it's just been sitting by all this time letting things happen without sticking a tentacle in from time to time until Loki came crawling to it. (On reflection, I wonder in particular if it had anything to do with the emergence of Tiamat and the Titans.) Very likely Teeth knows nothing about that part at all.

And we don't know yet who Doug was talking to -- the same entity who prodded Jack into permanently detaching/binding/killing his soul. I trust it will all fit together in the end, but I don't know that this part is helping very much. Yet.

[Seafog the 3rd]

Notably the idea that the tree is heirarchal and its shadow/reflection is individualist.

Both trees are hierarchical. That's one reason it doesn't appear to fit.

I was refering to it more as a reflection along the plane of organization, that version would fit, but would probably be less 'real'.

Regardless, its been fun talking with you about this Acolyte.

Hey, any other time I can help to completely cloud up an issue, just let me know!

As for todays comic, is that supposed to be 'The Lightbringer'?

Well, it sure looks like a fallen angel swearing vengeance against heaven...

I saw it more as a Sephiroth being stripped of much of what it is, myself.

This comic implys that Lilith can still create devils, but that the Sephiroth formerly known as Keth cannot create angels.

Does it? How do you get that?

From the implication that Lilith was NOT reduced. Matt has stated that only the big 20 can create new angels/devils. I guess they can breed, but not 'create'. The Keth implication is an assumption that the other Sephiroth got enough to deny it that power.

Lilith appears to be running very counter to character if she helped build a civilization. It also implys that nobody has access to Kali, that she has left reality to her 20 minions to run, and that she only came back relatively recently. (snippage)

I wonder how much of this we should take as read. (About this last part at least, even Teeth wasn't too sure about what he was saying.) Remember that the demons and angels are really Ideovore recruited for these roles by Kali, and that over time they'd come to identify with them so completely they forgot where they came from. That, plus the fact they seem to have mistaken the being on the throne with a tit hanging out for a male, suggests a good part of what was really going on was concealed from them.

From read, I assume you mean true? Only the top 20 were recruited by Kali, all the rest are their 'decendants', hense have never known the great inbetween and I'm not sure Ideovore is a good word to describe the 20 (if I have the right definition, I couldn't find one). The story claims God left, hense the throne would be empty. It it wasn't, then Kali either let Keth have alot of rope or was really zoned out before she squashed him/it. The story could also just be really wrong here. Regardless I doubt Teeth and Eyes have reliable intel on the gender of God. At best I'd say only the Sephiroth ever had ANY contact with Kali, and it was probably minimal and cryptic. So she was gone for all intents and purposes.

(Um. It was Kali with the tit, not the throne.)

So much for the furniture fetish.

Anway....

We may be seeing a very garbled account of the Ontology Wars here, with perhaps some faint recollection of the Antediluvian world.

Not the Ontology Wars, Kali was to together, to weak, to sane, and there was too much else going on. This sounds to me more like the breakdown of the system Kali setup AFTER the Wars. This is the story of Lucifers rebellion.

It's also interesting to note that Lucifer is a reduced Sephiroth and not an angel at all.

In Matt's system, Sephiroth (singular Sephirah) are a variety of angel. That's another point where there's no fit.

I always took them as something seperate, only nominally angels, as they are the only ones who can create new ones. I was trying to say that I previously thought Lucifer was part of the rank and file angels, and that he had just been EXTREMELY passionate and charismatic. These comics show that to be false.

What we're not getting so far is the part Chaos has played in all this. I can't believe it's just been sitting by all this time letting things happen without sticking a tentacle in from time to time until Loki came crawling to it. (On reflection, I wonder in particular if it had anything to do with the emergence of Tiamat and the Titans.) Very likely Teeth knows nothing about that part at all.

They already had Loki by this point. Keth (I keep wanting to call him Kent) could have been influenced by them. Tiamat could have been convinced to attack. <shrug> We just don't know. I'd say they have lots of trouble accessing reality, and lots of other things on their minds, so they were not able to accomplish much during the relatively short time after the Wars ended.

And we don't know yet who Doug was talking to -- the same entity who prodded Jack into permanently detaching/binding/killing his soul. I trust it will all fit together in the end, but I don't know that this part is helping very much. Yet.

We also don't know that they are the same. I'm still of the thought that Jack was just talking to himself, letting Matt show us the internal process'.

Ugh! Quoting other posts is time consuming. Am I missing an easy way to do this?

[Acolyte]

Not the Ontology Wars, Kali was to together, to weak, to sane, and there was too much else going on. This sounds to me more like the breakdown of the system Kali setup AFTER the Wars. This is the story of Lucifers rebellion.

Garbled, meaning a general outline of events might be known, but the timing, sequence, and exact identity of the players became confused.

"Antediluvian" means "before the flood". Normally it refers to the time before Noah's flood. But in Matt's world the Bible -- if it exists there in the same form as we have it -- is also a garbled, probably deliberately obfuscated version of events. In Genesis it's pretty much implied that the flood was sent, at least in part, to the presence of the Nephilim. This appears to correspond to what Teeth is describing with "Then God returned" and "something fell upon the Earth...."

Now, we have good reason to believe that Thera's account is accurate, at least according to her point of view. There are a handful of events that might be described as "something fell upon the Earth": the first Lunar invasion, the Cataclysm, the invasion of the Titans and the destruction of the Atlantean world by Kali after the Ontology Wars. The first of them was preceeded by a war, the one against the Kataract-Sune. Tellingly, the Altantean world is also called "antidiluvean". So is there a connection?

(A side note: It was the Incarnates who destroyed Tiamat and sterilized the Moon, after Nidhogg destroyed Yggrasil but before they turned on each other. It as during the war among the Gods that Loki fled to Chaos.)

If we're trying to fit Teeth's account into the events we know about we have some disentangling to do. I don't feel up to putting down all my thoughts on the subject just now, but it looks to me as if he's got a few misattributed causes, very confused accounts of antediluvian conflicts and disasters, the wrong people involved at least some of the time, and some events drastically misdated. Unless this is an entirely different set of events we've not yet heard about in which case there's nothing to speculate over yet.

[Seafog the 3rd]

Hey Matt! (We almost have the author 'on call' or 'in office' around here, how cool is that?)
Can you answer this one for us? Is teeth talking about the Ontology Wars era or the Lightbringer rebellion era? Or at least which does he THINK he's talking about? Both cronologically and event wise.
I'm listening to Gowans 60 Second Nightmare right now, cool song, you guys should listen.

[Mirober]

Might take a while to fully respond, but I'll try and catch up.

I'm assuming you made this part up, did you, or is this story told somewhere really old?

Pretty much made it up.

Do you have names for all 20 Matt? What source did you use? And what are all 20 names?

Nah. From the Qlippoth, you've pretty much heard the names that are known: the rest are lost (intentionally so, since the Lightbringer forged his new name from the two that were made captives, and the destroyed ones he fears might be brought back through their names). The Sephiroth pretty much parse to the same names as Kabbalistic systems.

Have you concidered setting up a Wiki for your world? A Strangewiki?

Yes, actually. Or at least a mini-encyclopedia. We'll see how it goes (first I need to finish and start posting the new character background write-ups I've had sitting on my hard drive for so long).

[Mirober]

Gack, need to think about this for a while. I'll post a full reply later today.

[Mirober]

Okay, Teeth is basically spouting the Daemon Heresy. Portions of it have been garbled and gotten mixed up with legends about the Antedeluvian civilizations, the Titans War, and the Ontology War. Beyond that, I don't want to say too much.

I will tell you this: a significant percentage of Hell's denizens believes this is the true history of events. Also, Kali wasn't alone in going batshit insane.

[Orion]

Unfortunately my education in this area isn't extensive enough to provide much else to this conversation. I did have one question that you guys might be able to answer:

how do you pronounce "Qlippoth"?

[Acolyte]

how do you pronounce "Qlippoth"?

Just like it's spelled.

[Seafog the 3rd]

Bad boy Acolyte, no biscuit.

[Orion]

Damn, I was afraid of that, now it looks like I'll need to go get my extra tongue.