Ilya's "Common Grounds" Diatribe

Postby Karva on Sat Jan 06, 2001 1:59 am

I think Illya's reviews are pretty funny.<P>------------------
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Postby ZOMBIE USER 197 on Sat Jan 06, 2001 2:37 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rickZ:
<B>Aw, Howard... it's all in good fun, I think? <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"> </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nope. Didn't look like "good fun" to me. It looked exactly like an unsubstantiated attack. "Good fun" would be parody, like what Wierd Al does to Michael Jackson.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Neither comics he's covered in Illya Unbound really were up to snuff in his opinion </B>(snip)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Opinions are wonderful, and differing tastes are what make the world an interesting place. This has nothing to do with the fact that Ilya is being mean-spirited, and that Case is effectively encouraging him. <P>I would compare Ilya's work to <A HREF="http://keenparody.keenspace.com">KeenParody</A>, which, while mean-spirited in appearance is a <B>parody</B>, and therefore both funny and excuseable. Ilya was not parodying. He was attacking, and being deliberately hurtful. That may have a place on bitter I-have-no-life rant sites, but in a community of cartoonists it is a tastless thing to host.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>The name of it says it all, "Illya Unbound". Meaning, that he is not bound to any rules of conduct, decorum or "reviewer" etiquette when he unabashedly attacks a comic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B>
By your logic, saying you are going to be an asshole excuses you from the repercussions of being an asshole. This line of reasoning lands people in jail and in court ALL the time. (note: I am NOT calling anyone an asshole, nor am I threatening anyone with prosecution or suit).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I find it rather admirable that Case is willing to host someone who in his rantings, could alienate some of the comics community. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B>
I find that opinion utterly ridiculous, but admire you for the bravery to utter it. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/wink.gif"><P>Seriously, expressing a contrarian viewpoint because you believe it to be right is admirable. Bringing partisan hate-rants into a community of common interests is divisive, subversive, and cruel.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I think you're confusing "support" with "hosting". </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
KeenSpace is "hosting." Strippers on KeenSpace who link to things, or put things on their sites, are supporting/condoning/promoting. That is the way it looks to the rest of the world. A host cannot be immediately identified from the pages of content it hosts. But support is implied in the promotion of content on a page. If Case wanted to distance himself from Ilya, he'd have done so with a big disclaimer.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Anyhow, I just thought someone should step up and offer a contrasting viewpoint. No hard feelings. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>None taken. Contrasting viewpoint duly noted.
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Postby ZOMBIE USER 12 on Sat Jan 06, 2001 4:00 am

I was, of course, a little upset when I read the review. Granted, people don't always like my strip. A lot of people don't. But a lot of people do, too, and I'm not worried about it. I don't do it for anyone but myself, afterall.<P>The part that got me about the review was, as Howard stated, only a week worth was read. That's kind of like judging the taste of a can of soda by the design on the can. *shrugs*<P>I took a bit of offense to the review, but for the most part it didn't bug me that much. However, a review that offered some constructive critisism, or speculated how the comic could improve -- instead of simply saying "this is shit." would be a lot more effective, and meaningful.<P>If someone wants to offer me suggestions on how the comic should be, they are more than welcome to do so. Some of them, I may take heed to. Others, I'd probably ignore.<P>My first comic strip, Sit and Spin was reviewed by SomethingAwful one time. Of course, I was insulted, but it sent me a lot of hits -- and a lot of readers who did like it -- as well as actually offering specific things that were lacking in my style, a lot of which, I took note of and actually improved upon.<P>Thanks for the bit of traffic that you sent, after all, all press is good press. Hope you didn't mind my opinion on how you presented your opinion.<P>--Corey Marie Kitley<P>------------------
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Postby ZOMBIE USER 54 on Sat Jan 06, 2001 7:14 am

Thanks Howard, point-by-point dissection is always fun and effective <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/wink.gif">. I can respect your opinion. You make intelligent arguments (as I've frequently noticed by your posts) and I'll agree that scathing does not go hand in hand with parody. Parody is usually done in jest (as supported by your example of weird Al) whereas Illya Unbound is (by my reading) in no way jest. I still don't see a problem with this though. Yes, it may be hurtful and sure, he may come off as an asshole (to some people). I don't think that's any excuse to get out of repurcussions. If said repercussions include Case losing a portion of his audience then I'm sure that's something he realized and is willing to risk. But by the same token, it may pick up different demographic as well. In regards to to my finding it admirable to Case hosting Illya's ramblings- I'm all for freedom of expression. If Case were to pull Illya due to public outcry that he may be trampling on a few toes, then I in turn would be somewhat disappointed. Disappointed? Why you might ask? Well, disappointed that if Case pulled the plug it would probably be due to the political repercussions in the comic community. But then again, this is a rather large community and not everyone is going to be oh-so-polite to one another 100% of the time. There will be pock-shots, criticism (both constructive and negative) and daggers thrown from time to time, but hell, that's the nature of throwing 400 or so (how badly am I off?) creative (and probably somewhat eccentric and moody) individuals in one group. It's almost like high school that way <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/wink.gif">. In an ideal world and community we'd all stand up and support each other and only offer constructive criticism without ever trying to be subversive. Of course, I don't think we'd be human any more if that happened <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/wink.gif">. Now to the "hosting" discussion... ClearChannel Communications runs several radio stations here in Orlando. One of them happens to be a talk radio station. They frequently air drops before the beginning and during the radio programs that "The opinions of the hosts and callers do not reflect the opinions of ClearChannel Communcations." That there is an example of hosting without agreeing. I would like to believe that Case is following this route with Illya. He is providing him a forum, but may not necessarily agree with the opinions expressed. Despite the different mediums, I still think the analogy applies. (Although I will concede a point that if he wanted to distance himself he would've posted a disclaimer. I don't feel its necessary, but at least publicly it would make if official.) Now on to Pix...<P>Corey, I may not be a big fan of your work, but I have immense respect for you. You work hard and you've taken a lot of flack. Despite this you've continued on. I'm glad that despite being somewhat offended, you realized its only a persons opinion and you have plenty of pageviews/visits to show that others express a different opinion. Controversey sometimes breeds popularity as you've found out from the bit of traffic you obtained (judging by what you said). <P>All in all, I'm really glad to see that so far this has been discussed somewhat maturely (no personal attacks or name calling woohoo!) and intelligently. I have some immense respect for you as well Howard. I don't really see any more ground to cover in this post. We've both expressed our opinions, tried to back it up with some explanations and to a degree kept our resolve on the issue. The only ones who can really settle it would Case and Illya, primarily by their actions from this point on. Let the repercussions fall (if they may, if not then I'll give a hearty woohoo!). I've certainly taken something with me from this conversation. Have a good weekend Howard and Corey <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/biggrin.gif">.<p>[This message has been edited by rickZ (edited 01-06-2001).]
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Postby Ryan J. Smith on Sat Jan 06, 2001 7:34 am

I was the first to be reviewed, and Ilya told me that he only read two of my strips. Though he didn't talk about my comic much in the review... But I still find him legitimate. Personally, I don't think I could stomach browsing through a week's worth of that strip, either. <P>------------------
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Postby ZOMBIE USER 197 on Sat Jan 06, 2001 8:10 am

My only beef with you, rickZ, is that you are still living in Florida. I fled over ten years ago. I hope the Orlando area is more liveable a tourist trap than Sarasota was <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/biggrin.gif">.<P>As for repercussions, this is probably the extent of them. I'm not trying to throw my (negligible) weight around. I'm just expressing an opinion like the rest of us. I, too, am pleased that the discussion has not devolved to personal attacks (unlike the review, which quickly devolved into a personal attack, but we've covered that ground already).<P>Cheers, all.<P>------------------
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Postby ZOMBIE USER 54 on Sat Jan 06, 2001 8:19 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Howard:
<B>My only beef with you, rickZ, is that you are still living in Florida. I fled over ten years ago. I hope the Orlando area is more liveable a tourist trap than Sarasota was <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/biggrin.gif">.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Manohmanohman... I hate Orlando. I've grown up here. The only significant time I've spent away from it was in Tally attending FSU. Really, if I had a choice, I'd move back there. The small-townness of it grew on me. Orlando truly is a tourist trap of death. I do know, that at some point I really need to move on and make my mark in some other town. Life is about experiences. So where are you living Howard? <P><P>------------------
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Postby ZOMBIE USER 197 on Sat Jan 06, 2001 8:41 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rickZ:
<B> So where are you living Howard? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I currently hail from Orem, Utah. I moved out here to go to school, and ended up getting married, finding work, buying a house... it's been quite the ride.<P>I miss the beach, and fresh seafood. I do not miss the traffic, or the old people. Although there is something to be said for being young, agressively intelligent, and healthy in a town full of helpless old farts. Assuming you want to eventually turn to a life of crime, or real estate.<P>In the last five years working for Novell I've been all over the world, and realized that I'm pretty happy with Orem, Utah. Life may be about experience, but there are some places that just don't have to be lived in to be experienced. I know far more about Johannesburg, New York, and San Francisco than I care to. Those places stick to the soles of your shoes.<P>--Howard<P>
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Postby ZOMBIE USER 197 on Sat Jan 06, 2001 11:09 am

Ilya, I regret to inform you that your future as a reviewer looks dim indeed.<P>I can understand you not liking <A HREF="http://www.cgrounds.com"><I>Common Grounds</I></A>. I can't understand you attempting to review it without actually reading more than a week's worth of strips. Yours appears to be the sort of lazy, hack-work that eventually gets paid columnists fired, but that gets published on the web in spite of its easy categorization as "drivel."<P>If you want to pan something in a review, use reviewers' language before resorting to shallow, diatribic rhetoric. Use examples of the strip's dialog. Link to strips you thought were bad, and call attention to the faults. Make your case intelligently.<P>In the case of your <I>Common Grounds</I> review, the only point you made is that you are mean-spirited, and write coherently. Boo. <P>And Case Yorke... I'm just a little disappointed in you for hosting Ilya's tripe. It's unwise for a cartoonist, especially one showing a modicum of true wit and talent, to support unsubstantiated attacks on his/her peers.<P>(edit--fixed <I>Common Grounds</I> link)<p>[This message has been edited by Howard (edited 01-07-2001).]
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Postby Ilya Olenskaya on Sat Jan 06, 2001 11:35 am

Alrighty, let's dig in and see what we come up with. Ah, a disclaimer on request of Mr. Howard.<P>The opinion expressed by Ilya is his own, and no one will agree with it, but what matters is that it is his, supported by him alone.<P><b>Ilya, I regret to inform you that your future as a reviewer looks dim indeed.Alas, review is not my intention, it is purely my opinion that I offer, and nothing more.<P>I can understand you not liking Common Grounds. I can't understand you attempting to review it without actually reading more than a week's worth of strips. Yours appears to be the sort of lazy, hack-work that eventually gets paid columnists fired, but that gets published on the web in spite of its easy categorization as "drivel."</b><P>Hack work? That term can be applied to any endeavor, regardless of status. For instance, I am not a fan of Tim Burton's, and see his take on the Batman mythos to be nothing but pure, unadulterated hack and slash. Perceptions of what are, and are not, worthy works will always clash thanks in part to those silly little notions we members of Homo Sapiens hold in our self aware minds.<P><b>If you want to pan something in a review, use reviewers' language before resorting to shallow, diatribic rhetoric. Use examples of the strip's dialog. Link to strips you thought were bad, and call attention to the faults. Make your case intelligently.</b><P>So what you are saying is that I should alter my language to make my thoughts more palatable to the less perceptive. I, on the other hand, disagree wholeheartidly. Consider this, the first strip of Common Grounds that I read already had a disagreement between the two stereotypical leads, based on a romantic conflict. From the opening strip that I then elected to read, I gained an insight into a main plot, and from roughly 12 or so strips, realised that the writing was ultimately formulatic and overly predictable. The jokes were tired attempts at sarcastic irony as well as overly self aware, making the punchlines heavy handed and lacking in comic timing. Rather than playing Punch and Judy, I opted for the more Stalineque style of verbal barrage, since it can be found humorous by those people who still remember that being over the top is, indeed, a form of humor.<P><b>In the case of your Common Grounds review, the only point you made is that you are mean-spirited, and write coherently. Boo.</b><P>Bravo, you have deciphered my hard to grasp point. The Rosetta Stone is a pale mockery of the deduction skills you possess as a person. Alas, I must admit you did make a few mistakes, one of which is that I call what I write a review, I do not. If I did label my thoughts as a review, I would certainly bring out my old grammar texts, thesaurus, dictionaries, et al. and properly, as those zany children say today, "Rip a new poopshoot" for the aforementioned affronts to my personal sensiblities.<P><b>And Case Yorke... I'm just a little disappointed in you for hosting Ilya's tripe. It's unwise for a cartoonist, especially one showing a modicum of true wit and talent, to support unsubstantiated attacks on his/her peers.</b><P>Politics? Dear me, oh my, are you attempting to admonish Mr. Yorke for daring to possibly disrupt this happy little den of lies, two faced greetings, and oft whispered insults? Attack my all you want, I see no wrong in your assement of my small blurbs of writing, but to level a poorly vieled threat at someone who's opinion I do respect, well that just simply smells of skullduggery. Your motives are reviled, and no, that is not a typo. The very fact that you chose to put this on a forum screams murder in the second degree, because you neither have the gumption nor need to simply message me at the mail provided by Mr. Yorke for responses, grievences, or praise should someone wish to level any at my person. This travesty of justice you claim as simply not wanting to see other people's feelings harmed, neatly placed into a disguise of providing "criticism" of what I choose to do is nothing more than smoke and mirrors to half heartidly warn Case to play into the machine. I do miss sweet home Chicago, because I certainly could use some Taminey Hall scratching right about now. <P>To sum it up, aim your guns at me, and not my pal Case.<P>Thanks again,<P>-IO
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Postby ZOMBIE USER 54 on Sat Jan 06, 2001 12:23 pm

Aw, Howard... it's all in good fun, I think? <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"> I doubt that Illya would intend to actually use his reamings as portfolio work should he ever decide to go pro. And a reaming is actually what it is. Neither comics he's covered in Illya Unbound really were up to snuff in his opinion (which people unfortunately are allowed to hold, intelligently or not). However, I'd tend to agree with him as far as my taste is concerned. I tried reading Common Grounds and couldn't get past the first several strips. However, that's my taste (or lack of). I think you'll agree that if everybody liked the same material then comicdom, if not the world, would be pretty bland. But that's getting off the subject. The name of it says it all, "Illya Unbound". Meaning, that he is not bound to any rules of conduct, decorum or "reviewer" etiquette when he unabashedly attacks a comic. <P>As far as your reference to Case, I don't see a problem with him hosting Illya. He might not necessarily agree with Illya's opinions, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't offer him an outlet. Look at Keen itself. How is it any different from the Space (or Spot) hosting material that some might deem offensive? I find it rather admirable that Case is willing to host someone who in his rantings, could alienate some of the comics community. I do see where you're coming from, Howard, but I think you're confusing "support" with "hosting". Support implies that Case agrees wholeheartedly. Hosting implies that Case is just giving Illya a corner to spout his little brand of insanity. Anyhow, I just thought someone should step up and offer a contrasting viewpoint. No hard feelings. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"><P>------------------
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Postby Gav on Sun Jan 07, 2001 2:05 am

I thought it would be as prudent for me to reply to these diatribes as a prison inmate's decision to leave the soap where it lies. Frankly, I found most of Ilya's half-baked-as-the-Thanksgiving-turkey-in-a-locked-down-prison reviews far too boring and convoluted to actually read all the way through, like the whiny ramblings of a prison inmate who has just been rammed between the cheeks and needs to feel loved. I couldn't bear to even read most of the posts on this message thread, them taking longer to read than the dirty limericks on the penetentiary walls while enduring the denegrating soiling of the lustful ravages of the entirety of cell block D after lights out.<P>Of course, one doesn't need to read the self-congratulatory, conceited as Shannon Dougherty as a guard in prison, inferiority-complex driven, unneccessarily verbose verbiage and unimaginative, droll, vapid haragueings of an individual who would drop his trousers in prison just for the attention.<P>Of course, the uninspired dronings of this one-and-a-half bit hack who writes with all the brevity and mental organization of Fyodor "writing was the Crime and reading was the Punishment" Doestoevsky with Turret's on Ritalin after an ass-rimming (in prison) by Apophis in a hedge-maze watching Dennis Miller philabuster, need not be addressed by anyone, save the National Institute for Treatment of Chronic Insomnia.<P>Of course, of much greater interest is the the completely unrelated topic of the superiority of the Celcius scale over Fahrenheit, which I choose to address at this time instead of wasting my incredably valuable time on this tripe.<P>Frankly, I'd rather be butt-raped in prison.<P>------------------
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Postby ZOMBIE USER 54 on Sun Jan 07, 2001 5:39 am

my head feels like it's going to explode. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/biggrin.gif">
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Postby Ilya Olenskaya on Sun Jan 07, 2001 5:46 am

Wow, and I thought my meager attempts at bringing the prison sodomy counter culture were going unnoticed.<P>I just love it when people feel the need to bring up old Soviet escapee authors and other such, well, "look at me, I'm one of dem der intersexuals" phrases. I warms the cockles of my heart.<P>Of course, after reading the entire Nukees archieves, I wouldn't have expected any less from Gav... oddly enough though, I sort of enjoy both the creator and creation for this attitude.<P>Thanks again,<P>-IO<P>
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Postby Michael on Sun Jan 07, 2001 6:10 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BoxJam:
<B> Eat me, bastard.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Up yours, you blue freak.<P>------------------
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Postby Michael on Sun Jan 07, 2001 6:20 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Howard:
<B>
BTW, Michael, I checked out ToonBots a couple of days ago. I like it.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm told that some forms of aversion therapy can help you with that.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>and I can only assume that your parenthetical Boxjam slam above was made in jest</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That hack? He couldn't hold my attention if he used a vise.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> I'm anxious to see what you end up building. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You and me both. It sort of writes itself. Which is, at times, painfully obvious -- but I make no bones about it. I do it because I think it's fun, and so do maybe ten other people, already more fans than most programmers have.<P>It started as a sort of nihilist non-toon and lately it's almost something I'd read myself if I ran across it today. Not daily, but I wouldn't forget it, I think. We'll see after a few more months, if I can keep up the 2.51-day update frequency. (Standard deviation 0.28 days.)<P>Wait. This is the wrong thread to be serious in. Forget I said any of that.<P>
------------------
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Postby ZOMBIE USER 197 on Sun Jan 07, 2001 8:18 am

Go easy on the claims of "skullduggery" there, Ilya. As I pointed out in a later post, I'm not threatening Case. I can certainly see how one might interpret my post that way, but I have no intention of escalating my reaction beyond
1) changing my opinion of Case
2) saying so<P>I've done that.<P>My primary motive in posting here instead of sending private email was simple, public refutation. Having read more than a dozen of Corey's strips, I find your claims of formulaity rather weak, and certainly unsupported. Most strips (Sluggy included) don't really hit their stride for a few weeks. Reviewers know that. <P>I guess in retrospect, <I>your</I> motive should have been clear to me. You are not a reviewer, you are a ranter. You do not edify, you entertain. The forumula you accuse Corey of adhering to is infinitely complex and deeply interesting compared to the formula you use, though your sesquipedalian obfuscation neatly masks that. "Ilya Unbound: pedestrianism masquerading as the pedantic." <P>If I have any motive for you to revile, it is that I'd like to see your work unlinked, and hidden over at Geocities or Angelfire, instead of sitting here on ArentWeReal.KeenSpace.com, where attacks on Case's fellows and mine generate page-views for Case. <P>Hmmm. Page views. Ilya, the "machine" you speak of is... what? KeenSpace is a community and a business. Certain mechanics are expected, not the least of which is common courtesy. I don't expect it from you, mechanical or genuine, (after all, you are unbound, unhinged, over the top, humorously discourteous, etc), but most of the cartoonists around here nicely foster a courteous and supportive environment. <P>Surely, with your command of the written word you can entertain without attacking a young, budding artist! The only piece of the rant formula you've left out is the part where the grand, stale institutions of society bear the brunt of the attack, as if the ranter would tear down those walls bare-handed, bloody-fisting his way to freedom from conformity.<P>You've got talent, Ilya. Go pick on Bill Keane, or King Features. More of us will find you funny, and at the end of the day you might accomplish something.<P>--Howard
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Postby Michael on Sun Jan 07, 2001 9:15 am

Woo-hoo! This is getting more interesting than I thought! Ilya's an asshole, but he's my kind of asshole, and Howard is <I>finally</I> resorting to ad hominem attacks, which are obviously the only way to deal with Ilya! (I particularly enjoyed the gratuituous use of the phrase, "sesquipedialian obfuscation." That's the kind of post I like to see around here.)<P>Who will win? Civilized society or the lone hermit with a .22 shouting "Damn revenooers!" I can hardly wait!<P>Carry on, carry on.<P>(Case, hosting Ilya is the most interesting thing you've ever done. Well, except for your strip. You continue to amaze and surprise. Thanks for making it less possible to call Keen insipid. People like that BoxJam fellow keep things so boring.)<P>(Why am I talking to Case? I guess I assume that someday he'll buy that Mac and visit us again.)<P>------------------
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Postby ZOMBIE USER 197 on Sun Jan 07, 2001 11:21 am

That's odd. I thought I resorted to ad-hominem arguments in my very first post.<P>*checks*<P>Yup. They're there.<P>BTW, Michael, I checked out ToonBots a couple of days ago. I like it. Very elegant work (and I can only assume that your parenthetical Boxjam slam above was made in jest, based on the high Boxjammy [yum!] content of your latest strips). I'm anxious to see what you end up building.<P>Cheers,
Howard
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Postby Ilya Olenskaya on Sun Jan 07, 2001 11:41 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael:
<B>I do it because I think it's fun, and so do maybe ten other people, already more fans than most programmers have.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, I know I'm supposed to be in villian mode, but screw that for a second. I've just had a burst of inspiration... PROGRAMMER TRADING CARDS!<P>Collect them, trade them, recompile kernals with them, heck, even flog the dolphin with their sleek and sexy palor staring lifelessly at you, in some sort of soul sucking half scowl, half "do me" bedroom look.<P>Then again...<P>
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