Comic Genesis Forums

by **Ripvanwormer** on Thu Dec 14, 2000 6:49 am

I think Case is right on with his editorial thing. It's true that I don't read Sinfest so regularly anymore, but I don't begrudge the guy any success he has.Who the hell am I, though?

by **Tyler Martin** on Thu Dec 14, 2000 7:09 am

Even moreso in his editorial I agree with the fact that PB Galaxy is surprisingly an entertaining Sci-Fi comic.Thanks for the kindly words Case. Did I actually admit to liking Aren't We Real though? I hate that rag of a comic. What's this, I have a link to that filthpen of a site, I will remove it immediately.Tyler Martin
President of the Anti-Aren't We Real Club
<A HREF="http://pbgalaxy.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>www.arentwerealsucks.com</A>PS: I do like your unique unfinished drawing style though. The characters are pretty cool too. It even makes me laugh and stuff but other than that I pretty much hate it.

by **ZOMBIE USER 54** on Thu Dec 14, 2000 7:16 am

honestly, i don't know what the huge backlash is all about. personally, i don't happen to read Sinfest. not because i don't like it, i just haven't gotten around to it yet. but hey, if the guy is making money off of something he loves (and frankly what most of us would love to be doing) then more power to him. its almost like when a great indie band finally starts selling records then many of the original fans start bailing cos "its not cool to love a sellout". cripes.------------------
Rick Zawadzki
Barclay, U.S.A.
<A HREF="http://barclayusa.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>http://barclayusa.keenspace.com</A> "Egg!?!"

by **Case Yorke** on Thu Dec 14, 2000 8:43 am

The thing that bothers me most is that the people who blast Sinfest for being a shameless hit machine are the first to go around begging for referrals and end up discussing their weekly traffic stats to everyone they meet.The big issue is here: it's one thing to be called the best, and it's one thing to work to get lots of hits, but the ultimate payoff is to get a large and loyal fanbase. A loyal fanbase comes when you hit a nerve in a certain demographic. A large fanbase occurs when your comic reaches many demographics. If you hit a nerve in many demographics, and that's not an easy thing to do, then you're a hit. Otherwise, you just keep scrambling for hits and you keep up the illusion that people actually read your comic, but just end up being one-time visitors.The point? The key to a successful comic is to have a good comic, regardless.Case------------------
Aren't We Real - the online doodle with zip
<A HREF="http://arentwereal.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>http://arentwereal.keenspace.com</A>
<A HREF="mailto:caseyorke@clerk.com">caseyorke@clerk.com</A>

by **Damonk13** on Thu Dec 14, 2000 10:17 am

very true, case.i admire and agree with your stance..your posture needs some work, tho.------------------
"Woohoo! I FINALLY thought of a witty qu~~
DAMMIT. I can't remember what it was now...
But, man. It was witty. Whoo.
Honest.
...
...
OK.
So I got nothing."
--damonk13
<A HREF="http://framed.keenspace.com/" TARGET=_blank>Framed! The Comic!</A>
(now with Beta-Carotine and new, minty <A HREF="http://www.keenspace.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Framed&number=113&DaysPrune=60&LastLogin=" TARGET=_blank>Forum</A>!)

by **Rtist54** on Thu Dec 14, 2000 10:47 am

You're funny Damonk. And you're so right, Case. And Boy does the truth hurt sometimes. It's scary, but it's true. For now, I'm just having a great time being a part of such a fun community.

by **Lee Herold** on Fri Dec 15, 2000 1:05 am

A dead-on assessment as usual, Boxer. I think Sinfest is at its strongest when God is doing puppet shows in the clouds, making fun of the Devil. That's when it's being unique, and I think Tatsuya's voice probably comes through in those strips. The calligraphy ones are neat, too.Slick, Monique, the cat & dog, I can do without. But those characters are what its popularity hinges on. If he just stuck to the more original, thought-out stuff, his readership probably wouldn't be near where it is, but purists would appreciate it more.

by **Mark Gerrits** on Fri Dec 15, 2000 9:14 am

I can't help but wonder (because I have a huge ego and think everything revolves around me) if <a href="http://ghostz.keenspace.com/d/20001211.html">this comic</a> was part of the reason for your rant, Case. I explained on my messageboard that I don't have a problem with Tatsuya or his comic (or any popular comic for that matter) but that it was a comment on his allegations of plagiarism against Dave Kelly and Eight. It doesn't mean I'll stop reading Sinfest or remove it from my links because even tho I don't consider it to be the next coming of Christ like you do <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/wink.gif">, I still like parts of it.------------------
<A HREF="http://ghostz.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Ghostz</A>

by **BoxJam** on Fri Dec 15, 2000 10:31 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Case Yorke:
The thing that bothers me most is that the people who blast Sinfest for being a shameless hit machine are the first to go around begging for referrals and end up discussing their weekly traffic stats to everyone they meet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, I hope I don't have to convince anybody
that I don't go around begging for referrals
or discussing traffic ad nauseum.For that matter, I don't go around bashing
Sinfest regularly, but I will say this:It's not above reproach. It is derivative,
in the sense that I very rarely feel like I'm
hearing Tatsuya's 'voice' in the comic. It
makes a lot of easy jokes, I think, that I
vaguely feel like I've heard before. The
artwork makes me jealous, but at the same
time, it's a little - I don't know -
soul-less? I feel like there's nothing
of Tatsuya's own hand coming through - but
he's a hell of a technician. Hard to explain
well, but I guess it's analagous to this:Mickey Mouse is a much better drawn being
than Charlie Brown. On the other hand,
anybody (even me) who takes the time can make
a perfect Mickey Mouse, given the image to
copy. I don't know of anybody who can draw
a Charlie Brown that I couldn't recognize as
a fake (although I guess they exist - those
TV specials weren't done by Schulz). There is
a life - a handwriting, in a Charlie Brown
rendering that I feel is absent in Sinfest.
It's even less present in PvP, but I'm getting
off on a tangent.Tatsuya's got incredible talent, but he needs
to figure out what *he* wants to say more than
doing slick stuff that anybody who decides to
be 'outrageous' can do.And, for anybody bored enough to still be
reading, I think it's perfectly OK to make
fun of Sinfest, or any other damned comic. I
mean, it's *COMICS*! People who take offense
when somebody takes a jab at Sinfest need to
relax. I *think* Tatsuya would tell you that
himself, based on his making fun of other
comic characters in his strip. I don't know
for sure, though, because he apparently never
talks to anyone.And I don't go around begging for referrals, so
I've never written him.------------------
Here comes <A HREF="http://www.boxjamsdoodle.com" TARGET=_blank>BoxJam's Doodle</A>!
Good ol' <A HREF="http://www.boxjamsdoodle.com" TARGET=_blank>BoxJam's Doodle</A>...Yes, sir!
There goes <A HREF="http://www.boxjamsdoodle.com" TARGET=_blank>BoxJam's Doodle</A>.How I hate it.

by **Ryan J. Smith** on Sat Dec 16, 2000 10:42 am

Hear, hear. Webcomics shouldn't be a popularity contest where everyone is trying to overthrow the leader. Sure, I think many other comics are deserving of Sinfest's popularity, but Sinfest deserves it's own popularity, as well. I may have felt comtempt toward Tats when he butt heads with Dave Kelly, but I couldn't stay mad at him. I don't like his fans saying that Dave Kelly is a no-talent, because Dave is insanely talented. I'm convinced that he's a robot from the future or an alien something if he can do so many art forms so well. But getting back to the subject, I myself am jealous of Tatsuya. I'm jealous of his talent. I'm jealous of his witty, sarcastic humor. And I'm ESPECIALLY jealous of his POPULARITY. But I don't HATE him because of my jealousy, nobody should. Because in spite of jealousy, I feel admiration towards him.
I think you're doing the right thing, Case. The whole "Anti-Sinfest" makes no sense, and it's just absurd. People shouldn't try to bring each other down if they're trying to get to the top.------------------
Ryan J. Smith: the Poster Child for Paxil
<A HREF="http://www.ronnieraccoon.com" TARGET=_blank>The Adventures of Ronnie Raccoon</A>[This message has been edited by Ryan J. Smith (edited 12-16-2000).]

by **Pyromancy** on Sat Dec 16, 2000 11:08 am

I think it comes down to the fact that people resent success in it's many forms. Couple that with the fact that Tatsuya Ishida never really talks to anybody and you have a situation where anybody who wants to can take a stab at a successful comic artist without fear of retirbution.
I'm not saying sinfest doesn't have it's downfalls. Frankly I'm REALLY tired of the beatnik poetry thing. I don't think a lot of thought goes into it. I find most of the characters really hard to get into. I also find that every now and again, Tatsuya seems to hit the comedy vein and I laugh my ass off for a while. "Good days, bad days," is my point I guess. A webcomic is just that: A webcomic. We don't read these things for the personality of the artist, or for the popularity of the strips. We read them because for whatever reason, they hook us. I applaud Tatsuya's success. I hope that more of us reach that point.------------------
<A HREF="http://hellsweethell.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Hell Sweet Hell</A>! Build strong egos in 12 ways.

by **Burntdog** on Sun Dec 17, 2000 7:12 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by BoxJam:
It's not above reproach. It is derivative, in the sense that I very rarely feel like I'm hearing Tatsuya's 'voice' in the comic. It makes a lot of easy jokes, I think, that I vaguely feel like I've heard before. The artwork makes me jealous, but at the same time, it's a little - I don't know - soul-less?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think Box makes an excellent point on soul vs non-soul in comics. I do disagree with the application to Tat though. Sinfest might not be the most personal vision of a comic but its consistently entertaining and I don't think all good art has to be deeply revealing of the artist to be good. Sometimes you just want to have a good laugh. I think Sinfest does that. Right now for many of my friends when I want to tell them to give webcomics a try Sinfest is often one of the ones that strikes a chord.There's nothing wrong with more personal work - I think the Doodle and LinG are two great examples of that but its not the only way to go.And as to people snipin' at Sinfest well I hate to say it but even Sinfest - arguably the most popular non-UF web comic ever at this point has still to make any impact on the mainstream popular culture. Long way to go before anyone has a leg to stand on in griping about "selling out"I mean you can only sell out if someone's buying...------------------
r s tanner
Burnt Dog Radio!
Politics and Pop Culture Gone Horribly Wrong - <A HREF="http://www.burntdogradio.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.burntdogradio.com</A>

by **Rtist54** on Sun Dec 17, 2000 9:32 am

I have a little stickman friend named Mikey.

by **Michael** on Sun Dec 17, 2000 12:27 pm

At the risk of adding bandwidth without any actual new content, um, I agree with all of you!Seriously -- it's the first I heard of any anti-Sinfest sentiment, but then I only frequent a few boards, because (my Lord) I have to work sometime. It's insane to rack on somebody for "selling out." (Right, Tirdun?) You like the toon or you don't like the toon -- if somebody can actually make money doing this, it means they're going to keep doing it, and it means that we're all that much closer to being legitimate in the public view.What people don't seem to get is that we're in a golden age here. Sequential art is more alive right now than any time since the 30's, and there's plenty of room, people.------------------
<A HREF="http://www.vivtek.com/toonbots/" TARGET=_blank>Toonbots.</A> Only the coolest of people like it. You want to be cool, don't you?

by Nd on Sun Dec 17, 2000 12:50 pm

Its hard not to rant about this topic. It happens in every venue that has a fan base. Actors sell out when they make a blockbuster movie; musicians when they get a top ten album; novelists with a bestseller; foetus jugglers when they go on letterman; aliens when they abduct famous people. Its ridiculous. People need to get over their need to have been there back when it was cool, not like it is now syndrome. If someone likes something that you like, it means that you have something in common. God forbid this mean that some of your individuality and inherent coolness be questioned. We are all sheep, our only choice is where we are hearded. ------------------
um, yeah...

by **Michael** on Mon Dec 18, 2000 7:24 am

Gah. Let's all agree not to mention the Grinch, and nobody gets hurt.The Hollywood machine takes something really good (the Grinch), chews it up, regurgitates some PC crap, and suddenly everybody in the entire industrialized world is Grinch this and Grinch that. My God, the Post Office is shilling for Hollywood! The Post Office?!? Now granted, Ilya and Case and our other, ahem, Stars-and-Stripes-challenged friends may not have been into a US Post Office in recent months, but imagine, if you will, that their normal explanatory posters have been replaced by Grinch-themed posters. The first one kind of rhymes, kind of scans, it's a nod to Dr. Seuss. But then obviously the marketroids found they couldn't sustain the effort, because they just kind of give up halfway through the second poster.But ... let's back up here. The USPS is still officially a part of the government, not a private commercial entity, right? So in effect, we have the government participating in a merchandising deal. (Let's ignore for the moment that my bank is also shilling for the Grinch.) Now ... correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that just sound like, oh, bad 70's science fiction? The government advertising for Hollywood entertainment moguls?This country is so damned bizarre at times.Oh. Sorry, we were talking about Sinfest, weren't we? Damn you, Ilya, you distracted me.------------------
<A HREF="http://www.vivtek.com/toonbots/" TARGET=_blank>Toonbots.</A> Only the coolest of people like it. You want to be cool, don't you?

by **Michael** on Mon Dec 18, 2000 8:33 am

Well, this is weird. Of his characters, I like Slick the best. Satan is a very close number two. God is a funny gag but the endless repetition gets boring (and the Frenchman thing is what finally made me yawn one too many times and drop Sinfest from my daily list.) Satan taking potshots at the cherubim -- now that was funny.But I think Slick is hilarious. Absolutely hilarious. I get so tired of losers in comic strips, no offense to Petey. I'm not a loser, but I used to be, and I don't like being reminded of it. Slick is somebody who's real close to being a loser but just doesn't give a shit and has decided to be cool whether life grants that to him or not, and he just plain does it -- which is why I like Horse a lot better than Petey. And that's Tatsuya, plain and simple. Tatsuya knows that a geek can just decide to be cool and do a more competent job of it than most "cool" people, and he runs with it.It's all through his strip. Take the dog/cat thing. Yeah, it's easy to say it's a Garfield ripoff -- but it's not. Dog is more of a Canis familiaris than any talking animal I've ever seen -- stupid but loving. Cat is again much more like an actual cat -- cool, but when nobody's looking, Cat likes to play with Dog's ball, be a kid, realize that coolness isn't the be-all, end-all thing that most jerks think it is. Dog is so far from cool that he turns out to be cool.I don't know. It's easy to call it all derivative, but quotation is a very strong undercurrent in recent art, for the excellent reason that we're steeped in digitally recorded media from birth to death. You can't exist in the humor world without quotation -- and it's easy to take the cheap shot and say that Slick is a Calvin ripoff, but that ignores all this extra character that's gone into him. He's not Calvin, he just looks like him. He doesn't have flights of graphic fancy, although he obviously has a powerful imagination. I'm sorry, it just ain't so....I have to get some work done.------------------
<A HREF="http://www.vivtek.com/toonbots/" TARGET=_blank>Toonbots.</A> Only the coolest of people like it. You want to be cool, don't you?

by **Burntdog** on Mon Dec 18, 2000 9:23 am

Ads comments might explain why I like SinFest better than the King of Rock and BoxJam - I think Slick is a loser. Maybe I'm missing Tat's point (I don't read the strip religously) but my sense is that Slick is a stereotype of the young surburban white male these days - wants to be a mackdaddy, wants to be a gangster, likes hip-hop. Only black person s/he knows is someone they saw on tv.He wants all that but I don't see him being it. The fact that he is constantly shut down by the girl (Monique?) seems to confirm that to me. Granted if Tat was going to evolve the strip forward I'd like to see him try new themes and new stuff but so far so good.Maybe what pisses people off the most is the derivative nature of a lot of it. Still if we dismissed all derivative art we'd mock 90% of the music made today. I guess I'm not that snobby about it anymore.------------------
r s tanner
Burnt Dog Radio!
Politics and Pop Culture Gone Horribly Wrong - <A HREF="http://www.burntdogradio.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.burntdogradio.com</A>

by **Ilya Olenskaya** on Mon Dec 18, 2000 11:32 am

I'll admit it, I'm an art house thug.I prefer to go to some obscure European made film in a language I can't even come close to fathoming rather than see most Hollywood "blockbusters".Why?I'm tired of pop culture. It _DOES_ exist to be mocked. It is a parody of itself, attempting to give the luster of self importance and relevance while being just a pandering to the lowest common denominator.People buy into it because they don't have to think about it. Take "The Grinch". Many people today have this notion that Jim Carey = Comedy. I feel really sorry for them, because his stuff today is nothing compared to his earlier days, predating In Living Color and during the shows prime run. He was geniunely funny, and inventive... but because of success he has been on autopilot.I think that's what infuriates me about pop culture, so many really talented people go on this automatic mode, where they stop being resourceful and unique, becoming exactly how they're portrayed by the star makers, a parody of themselves.And with Sinfest, I see the same exact thing. A neverending cycle of a joke within a joke, mocking something that is a mirror image of itself, a soulless entity being all things to all people without being anything at all.

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