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Health care seems like a pretty popular topic these days; we should probably talk about it.

I think Obama is being a wuss. Screw bipartisanship. Give me my universal healthcare already. If it requires taking some of Hilary's balls to do the job, then do it.

This is a small reason why I still feel that Clinton would be better at the job.

Seriously, the Republicans aren't compromising at all. After a certain point you just have to go forward. I think he's realizing that, though. I'm not sure that Clinton would have done any better... but she might've been less hesitant. I think I still prefer Obama. Still, the fat lady hasn't sung yet... or had bypass surgery, or whatever.

But being underinsured myself and with medical conditions, this has been taking up a lot of my attention. And dammit, they had better not drop the public option.

As a British citizen, I feel it is my duty to tell you all that, despite the lies flying around about the NHS, the government has only attempted to euthanise me twice. And one of those times, I sorta deserved it.

Seriously though, a lot of the controversy over there seems baffling to me. There's nothing wrong with having concerns and debates about health care reform, of course. Concerns over funding are an obvious example; indeed, one of the big debates over the NHS in this country concerns how it is to be funded while the population gets older, and thus requires more treatment and pays less in tax. People also have a right to be concerned over how reform will affect the quality of the health care they have, and over how the government would manage the transition form the current system to the reformed system. But the opposition to health care reform doesn't seem interested in having a rational debate. Instead we get these amazing and dangerous lies and distortions about the NHS, and death panels, and countless other scare-mongering fever dreams. Honestly, if the NHS were guilty of half of these accusations, we'd be rioting.

I really get annoyed at people who say universal health care is a right. It's not a right. You have no right to that.

It doesn't mean that health care for all isn't something worth talking about or worth trying to make work. But to call it a right gives people a sense of entitlement they should not have.

I also get exasperated at people who come up with, or parrot, stupid shit to try to make the "other side" look insane. Death panels? C'mon.

I do not know what these supposed "death panels" are, but I think I'd like some to re-tile my kitchen with.

Jim North wrote:I do not know what these supposed "death panels" are, but I think I'd like some to re-tile my kitchen with.

Jim, stop making people die while walking on the tiles of your kitchen.

Also, what is so wrong with an health care everyone can have? You still got the private side where you choose your doctor and it cost you 30000$.

>_>

Simple yet true- You're an idiot if you oppose universal healthcare.

I have no idea how Americans put up with their current system- On that, my family would have lost their house when mum got cancer, dad's right hand would be useless or he'd be in severe debt, and my diabetic nan would have lived in poverty due to having to pay for her meds out of her pension. Mental.

Komiyan wrote: I have no idea how Americans put up with their current system

The answer? Not very well.

I do believe that healthcare is a right, actually. I believe that people have the right to good health care, just as they have the right to public education. To me, rights are things that are basic human necesities that everyone must have in a civilized society. Clean drinking water, the right to vote, fair trials and due process..and yes, I put education in that category given the kind of effect it has both on the individual and the society as a whole. Drinking water and adequate food, too, because even though it's not in the Constitution believe it is a right. But I think rights are also things that people are often starved of. be it freedom of speech or proper health care, you can always tell the state of a country by the state of peoples' rights. they're something that need to be constantly defended and improved upon. If people aren't able to participate in a fair election, aren't able to speak their mind, aren't able to get the medical attention they need, aren't able to feed and water their populace... then something is very wrong in that country's power structure.

I am a big believer in social responsibility. That is to say, I am my brother's keeper. some problems can only be solved through social responsibility. Given that 40 to 60% of all the foreclosures in this country were due to medical related costs, it would be insane to say that one family's healthcare problems have no effect on the rest of us. When the family goes into bankruptcy and loses their home because of medical debt they sacrifice their economic future, which takes them out of markets that they would otherwise explore... thereby weakening our economy as a whole. and it is very hard to claw their way back up again. Not to mention that I find it deplorable from a moral standpoint that people can just look the other way on this. I believe it is our moral responsibility to see to the wellbeing of other people... because when you're sick, you can't always see to yourself.sometimes it's all you can do to get by. Medical costs and red tape just kick people when they are already down when what we should be doing is giving them a hand up.

Calling healthcare a right gives people a sense of entitlement, yes. And it is a sense of entitlement that, for this, they SHOULD have. I suppose I lump it in with the pursuit of happiness... that the sick have as much a right to that as anyone, regardless of their finances.

Komiyan wrote:Simple yet true- You're an idiot if you oppose universal healthcare.

I have no idea how Americans put up with their current system- On that, my family would have lost their house when mum got cancer, dad's right hand would be useless or he'd be in severe debt, and my diabetic nan would have lived in poverty due to having to pay for her meds out of her pension. Mental.

The people who aren't complaining are people with really good insurance. My mom has like....one of the best. We don't really worry about anything. However, my sister had a car crash, and that was a pretty penny. Idk or care, I just want universal health care. Everyone I know, GOP or Democrats, agree with that. It is very much doable in this country, but some people just think its socialism, and that's all they have to say to get the crazies out of the bushes and bring assault rifles to town hall meetings.

Jim North wrote:I do not know what these supposed "death panels" are, but I think I'd like some to re-tile my kitchen with.

It made me think this was going to be about deadly comicing. It sounded very exciting.

Health care would be nice...

All I know is right now if ANYTHING happened to my husband or me we would be screwed and our entire futures financially ruined as we cannot afford insurance, therefore any medical bills would put us into debt and ruin our barely built credit. That should never happen to anyone. And it happens quite frequently here.

MixedMyth wrote:

Komiyan wrote: I have no idea how Americans put up with their current system

The answer? Not very well.

I do believe that healthcare is a right, actually. I believe that people have the right to good health care, just as they have the right to public education. To me, rights are things that are basic human necesities that everyone must have in a civilized society. Clean drinking water, the right to vote, fair trials and due process..and yes, I put education in that category given the kind of effect it has both on the individual and the society as a whole. Drinking water and adequate food, too, because even though it's not in the Constitution believe it is a right. But I think rights are also things that people are often starved of. be it freedom of speech or proper health care, you can always tell the state of a country by the state of peoples' rights. they're something that need to be constantly defended and improved upon. If people aren't able to participate in a fair election, aren't able to speak their mind, aren't able to get the medical attention they need, aren't able to feed and water their populace... then something is very wrong in that country's power structure.

I am a big believer in social responsibility. That is to say, I am my brother's keeper. some problems can only be solved through social responsibility. Given that 40 to 60% of all the foreclosures in this country were due to medical related costs, it would be insane to say that one family's healthcare problems have no effect on the rest of us. When the family goes into bankruptcy and loses their home because of medical debt they sacrifice their economic future, which takes them out of markets that they would otherwise explore... thereby weakening our economy as a whole. and it is very hard to claw their way back up again. Not to mention that I find it deplorable from a moral standpoint that people can just look the other way on this. I believe it is our moral responsibility to see to the wellbeing of other people... because when you're sick, you can't always see to yourself.sometimes it's all you can do to get by. Medical costs and red tape just kick people when they are already down when what we should be doing is giving them a hand up.

Calling healthcare a right gives people a sense of entitlement, yes. And it is a sense of entitlement that, for this, they SHOULD have. I suppose I lump it in with the pursuit of happiness... that the sick have as much a right to that as anyone, regardless of their finances.

I agree. Being a citizen of the richest nation in the world should have its perks, and ready access to healthcare for all in need should damn well be one of those perks.

I get an impression that whenever health care is mentioned over there, someone yells "That's socialism!" and moral panic ensues... it's as if folks are still scared of "red menace" or something.

I thought PMS was the Red Menace...

...And yes, it frightens me.

Prettysenshi wrote:The people who aren't complaining are people with really good insurance

This is the problem. Some people (not accusing senshi of it at all) simply can't put themselves in another person's shoes even for a second. Or they're too stupid to know what socialism is and are willing to vote against anything they're told to, even though it would actually help them.

Bustertheclown wrote:I agree. Being a citizen of the richest nation in the world should have its perks, and ready access to healthcare for all in need should damn well be one of those perks.

Now now now. GREENLAND has universal healthcare. SRI LANKA has universal healthcare. FRANCE has universal healthcare. Obviously universal healthcare is for LESSER developed countries.

But of course we're talking about Republicans here. Your tax money being used to kill people = A-OK. Your tax money being used to help the country as a whole by making individuals healthier and stronger, institute financial confidence, and finally catch up your health system to that of third world countries = Bad.

If Obama tried to pass a bill saying every head of a household in the whole country had to own a rifle, and that rifle would be paid for by the government, I guarantee you not one 'publican would raise a fuss.

I've also lost the little faith I had in Obama. I wasn't a fan of Obama OR McCain. Obama is willing to fight to ban flavored cigarettes, but getting universal healthcare, and he backs down. This was one issue where he really had a chance to set himself apart from the past. So much for CHANGE. So much for YES WE CAN.

I'm sorry, I think forcing people to be bankrupted by medical bills because you can't get over communist-phobia is just outright stupid.


As for universal healthcare being a right or not, the UN states

Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care

I believe that while it doesn't outright say universal healthcare, turning someone away because they can't afford health care violates this right, so while it doesn't specify u.h., its definitely an end to a means.

Not to mention, saying it gives people a sense of entitlement they don't deserve seems a little damn offensive.
"Hello, we are black people, we would like a vote"
"LOL, yeah right, like you're entitled to that"
"We are women, we would like a vote"
"LOL, yeah right, you're not entitled to that"
"We are children who've been working for a penny a day in hazardous environments, we'd like to go play"
"LOL, yeah right, you're not entitled to that"

A feeling of entitlement is what makes rights, not the other way round.

Prettysenshi wrote:It is very much doable in this country, but some people just think its socialism, and that's all they have to say to get the crazies out of the bushes and bring assault rifles to town hall meetings.

McDuffies wrote:I get an impression that whenever health care is mentioned over there, someone yells "That's socialism!" and moral panic ensues... it's as if folks are still scared of "red menace" or something.

Both of your are very, very right. And it's because it is Socialism. And many people around these great states are still vehemently opposed to Socialism and its cousin Communism.

To be fair, there are some out there who have legitimate concerns about what becoming even more Socialist might do to our already ailing economy (and yes, they are legitimate concerns, even if they can possibly be worked around if not outright fixed), but I'm with you two . . . it seems that they're far outnumbered by those who against it simply because of "OMG SAUCILISM HALP" moral opposition to anything they're not immediately familiar with and/or enemies we don't actually have anymore.

Socialism in the health care industry may not be a perfect plan and what we end up getting may not be a perfect system, but at least there's a chance that it can help a huge amount of people all across America, people who are sick and hurt and dying and the only people currently willing to help them are almost universally overwhelmed and underfunded.

Silly question, but surely your fire department and police department counts as socialism too..? And numerous other organisations that are pretty long standing in America.

Komiyan wrote:Silly question, but surely your fire department and police department counts as socialism too..? And numerous other organisations that are pretty long standing in America.

funny you should mention fire brigades in America, because back in the early 1800s, they were private enterprises, much like homeowners insurance. you'd pay a monthly fee, and get a placard to place outside your home and if there was a fire, the brigade would respond to your house only if it had a placard out front.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... ted_States