Your thoughts on preserving webcomics

[MaskedLioness]

Hi all, I know I haven't been on the forums in a while, but I have a good excuse. Library school & a digital preservation course. I've returned because I'm looking for some opinions on the topic of a paper I'm writing for class.

I am currently writing a paper on the issues and activities surrounding the long-term preservation of webcomics. By long-term, I mean ensuring their existence (and access to them), hopefully online, for 50 or more years. While there is plenty of literature on preserving websites and digital media in general, I’m interested in what individual or groups of artists are currently doing or thinking about with regards to long-term preservation. I’m hoping that you can help me. I’m interested in any thoughts you may have on this subject and/or efforts that you are aware of. Below are a few questions to help lead you in the right direction, but feel free to move around outside of them. I will not use any identifying information in my paper without your permission, although I will be using some of the general content to establish the extent of activity in this area.

1) What do you think of preserving webcomics over the long term? Are there some that should definitely be preserved?
2) What are you doing to keep your comic safe for the future?
3) If an archive or art museum offered to preserve your webcomics, what parts of your comic, website, forums, production work, etc. would you be interested in sharing with that institution?
4) Do you know of any attempts to preserve webcomics either by individuals or groups?

I really appreciate your help in this endeavor. I may attempt to get this paper published in a library journal, but I will do my best to share the results with you regardless.

Thanks again!
(Please pardon the crossposting at Drunk Duck.)

[Renee Katz]

I think if their creators care enough about them we won't have to worry about perserving them.

[Dr Neo Lao]

By it's nature, the internet isn't really the sort of place where a big committee can sit down and say "let's keep this" or "let's discard that". We need to keep in mind that the internet is not a single entity but a whole bunch of computers hooked together in a common way.

As stated above, if the individual author / creator wants to keep their comic available then they would take the appropriate steps to ensure it's survival. I wouldn't worry too much about the comics that are made because someone was bored or on a whim.

However, there are people who are interested in keeping records of what goes on in the internet. Enter Archive.org. From their description:

Nonprofit organisation established to preserve Web sites by taking regular "snapshots". The Wayback Machine provides links to older versions of a webpage.

A very laudable endeavour, and it seems to be mostly succesful.

What have I done to preserve my comic? As I don't consider it to be a wonderful work of art (but with strong emotional attachment) I keep the original paper versions in a folder (sans safe), have digital backups burned onto a cd and keep a copy on my computer. I haven't exactly gone to great lengths, but I have tried to make sure that I have all my files (including source files, scans and psd files) available.

However, backing up onto CD isn't a really great way of keeping data. CD's (especially the cheaper kinds) break down over time. Picture this: the year is 1985. You have a bunch of data that you want to keep, so you put it onto the most advanced storage facility available to you - the good ole 5 1/4" Floppy Disk. You store them and keep them perfectly preserved.

Flash forward 20 years to 2005 (not even halfway of the specified 50!). You get your data out of storage, perfectly preserved and look around for a 5 1/4" drive.... oops.

And that's just hardware. Look at all those comics that run fancy Javascript or run on php. Will that software still be supported in 50 years? Will there even be any machines available that can run it?

I suppose that as long as the creator thinks that it's worth keeping and keeps the archived versions compatible with changing technology then the webcomic in question would be kept available (whether it deserves to be kept isn't really considered).

That's the biggest problem with digital creations. It's all just ones and zeros so it's very easy for the data to be lost or corrupted. A painting will keep for hundreds (if not thousands) of years, simply by virtue of it being a physical object. So I'd guess that the webcomics that manage the transition into print form would be the most likely to still be around at some stage down the track.

The moral? If you want your name remembered, carve it in stone. The Greeks and the Romans knew it, and we still tell their stories...

[Yeahduff]

More importantly, I'd ask why on earth would an art museum would even be interested webcomics anyway. Besides the "arrangement of lines" bit, I belive that most of the art world has shut out comics all together because it repersents a disgusting cross between lower folk art and "the awful Western world" that would have little point in existing at all except as examples of kitsch.

Exhibitions in galleries and museums consisting solely of comic work are becoming quite popular. And we're talking major museums in major markets: Chicago, San Francisco, etc. Granted, I've not heard of any webcomic exhibitions, but it's early.

[TheSuburbanLetdown]

Didn't Chris Ware just have a huge exhibit at the Museum of Contemporary Art? That seems pretty major to me.

This place is pretty cool too: http://www.cartoonart.org/
I saw the original pages of some Crumb comics I actualy have.

As for webcomics, once it's on the web, it's there forever in some form, which is true of pretty much anything. Things have a way of circulating.

[EvilChihuahua]

This is an issue very close to my heart.

The Life of Riley, one of the first webcomics I ever read, is now offline, and I can't find the archives anywhere.

I don't even care if the damn thing updates! I just want to read it again!

[That guy]

1) What do you think of preserving webcomics over the long term? Are there some that should definitely be preserved?
It's a double-edged sword. On the one hand, there's a drive to preserve any work of art for future generations... on the other hand there's a kind of beauty in knowing something WON'T last forever. Webcomics are always FRESH. You don't get stuck reading Garfield and Peanuts just because it's the only thing there, there's always something new.
_As I see it, WEBcomics are meant to be liminal. They're meant to come and go and dissappear and be active. But the COMICS themselves can be tranformed into a new medium if they're worth reading again. After all, hanging webcomics in a gallery or putting them in books (mentioned above) makes them, by definition, NOT webcomics. What's on paper is the same idea, but a different piece of art. (The 'Pop' art movement as a case in point. When Warhol steals a panel directly from a comic and puts it in a new artistic forum, it means something very different than the original panel did.)

2) What are you doing to keep your comic safe for the future?
I save my strips both on my hard drive and periodically on CD backups. I may someday put them in a book.

3) If an archive or art museum offered to preserve your webcomics, what parts of your comic, website, forums, production work, etc. would you be interested in sharing with that institution?
I would want to make a new piece. I might incorporate previous strips, guest art, etc, but because my original work was made specifically for the online genre, I would want to make something else specifically for the museum genre.

4) Do you know of any attempts to preserve webcomics either by individuals or groups?
As mentioned, turning comics into hardcopy is the most simple and most common way to my knowledge. Many webcomics have books of their strips, posters, or merchandise featuring their artwork. The hardcopy format changes the medium, but carries on the idea.

[RemusShepherd]

I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but there's a site called Full Story that archives completed webcomics. I intend to list my comic there when it's done. I don't have any other archive plans (other than to save the images myself).

[Czar]

This is an issue very close to my heart.

The Life of Riley, one of the first webcomics I ever read, is now offline, and I can't find the archives anywhere.

I don't even care if the damn thing updates! I just want to read it again!

Ditto.

[Rhenny]

1) What do you think of preserving webcomics over the long term? Are there some that should definitely be preserved?


A1: Absolutely, Historically art has been used as a method of communication since cave paintings. What else takes the pulse of the common man other than comics? It shows his thoughts, his feelings and the world around him. Examples include "The Yellow Kid", "Kazenjammer Kids" and of course the holocost accounting in "Maus".

2) What are you doing to keep your comic safe for the future?

A2: Right now, there are three copies: Hard copy, a copy on my HD and an archival copy burned to CD rom. (the latter being on my last project once it reached 40 installments) I find this worked because every now and then I do find myself going back to read it.


3) If an archive or art museum offered to preserve your webcomics, what parts of your comic, website, forums, production work, etc. would you be interested in sharing with that institution?

A3: I would offer anything they like, the comics the posts on the comics. Much like the letters pages of Silver age comics it shows history. I would also suggest inclusing a picture of the studio, some historical data on the artist. That would give an insight into the creative mind.

4) Do you know of any attempts to preserve webcomics either by individuals or groups?

A4: I would hope everyone preserves their work, how else can you learn by it? I do know that in Columbus, Ohio there was a serious attempt by the OSU university to create a cartoonists museum though I have never seen it. Also, they have preserved the "James Thurber hause" who was known for his whimsical stories and cartoons.
You could also cite "the Calvin and Hobbes" collection as well as the hardbound efforts to keep Charles Shultz's work published in collectiosn according to year.

Kitchen Sink Press also mantains "Lil Abner" and "Krazy Kat" collections the latter being historically important for being experimental in the genre.


Rhenny

[Dr Legostar]

1) What do you think of preserving webcomics over the long term? Are there some that should definitely be preserved?

::dips webcomics in formaldehyde::

[Noise Monkey]

*dips legostar in formaldehyde*


Now he'll stay just the same forever! Don't change, man. Don't change!

[/high school yearbook]

[MaskedLioness]

Wow, great insights here, please, keep the comments coming. I hadn’t heard about Full Story but I’ll definitely check it out.

I guess to clarify a few things, I’m totally in agreement that 1) you can’t “preserve the whole internet”/one group can’t do it all (or really even a small portion) and 2) not all webcomics need to be preserved. But…, and this may be my bias as a webcomiker and a preservationist/archivist, I do think there is cultural and historical value in taking pains to ensure some stick around. And yes, probably only the very popular, “firsts”, or bizarre will get saved. Luckily for me, my teacher doesn’t expect me to make the argument for or against ‘value’.

I have taken a look at the Internet Archive and think it’s a great and pretty noble project, but it doesn’t seem good for webcomic preservation, because it’s iffy on images. As an example, here’s an IA capture from my comic http://web.archive.org/web/200603231322 ... nesis.com/. Assuming nothing has changed since I made this link, the white/grey box is where my comic would be, if IA had been able to collect it. I think it has something to do with the way the auto-updater feeds comics in. (and clicking the links seems to take me to the live page rather than pages within IA.)

That Guy, I hadn’t really thought of webcomics as sort-of “needing” to be ephemeral, but it’s an interesting thought. I guess I’d argue that there are new comics being produced all the time, but we still learn things from Peanuts or Garfield. I agree that changing the medium of the artwork, changes the art itself. It’s one of the reasons I’m arguing for digital preservation over reproducing them in print.

What I think I’m hearing here is that people regard their comics as distinct entities from their websites, and that the comic may be worth saving, but not necessarily the surrounding content, site design, archive design, etc. in its current/near current form. i.e.- The comic itself may be considered “art” while the website is considered the “gallery”. Is that correct?

[Webkilla]

I'd like to see something like this done to webcomics

I can think of at least three webcomics I've seen quite simply disappear when the people doing them stopped... which IMO is quite stupid - even if you aren't updating any more, then at least let ppl read your old stuff!

oh what I wouldn't do to read The Ram one more time

[Scientivore]

I am currently writing a paper on the issues and activities surrounding the long-term preservation of webcomics. By long-term, I mean ensuring their existence (and access to them), hopefully online, for 50 or more years. While there is plenty of literature on preserving websites and digital media in general, I’m interested in what individual or groups of artists are currently doing or thinking about with regards to long-term preservation. I’m hoping that you can help me. I’m interested in any thoughts you may have on this subject and/or efforts that you are aware of. Below are a few questions to help lead you in the right direction, but feel free to move around outside of them.

Hello, I'm a superfan of this awesome medium, not a webcomicker myself. So, I'm going to go waaaay outside the lines of your questions and just talk a little bit about some of my relevant experiences as a reader.

The first thing that jumps into my head is Framed!!! by Damonk. I think that it's a very important webcomic because it made a point of exploring the potential of the medium relatively early on.

One of the attributes of webcomics is ready availability for crossovers, which was explored to its extreme in the Framed!!! Great Escape (which I had to unframe, ironically). Unfortunately, someone (Keenspot?) had some kind of server meltdown afterward. I don't remember the details but (for example) that old version of Glych's No Stereotypes was lost to the web; her current version is really 2.0 or 3.0 or something. Enough has now been put back up to follow her part of *NSFW* that crossover (starting here), but that's all. The reason for the NSFW warnings is that it's hosted on that delightful crossover magnet, *NSFW* Rogues of Clwyd-Rhan, which has casual nudity.

Another difficulty that I encountered in the Framed!!! archives was that there were many hardcoded internal links that were broken due to a change of the root folder. (That might have been changed by now. Or not.) The regular navigation still worked fine but the time travel storyline that took advantage of the non-linear potential of hyperlinking became functionally difficult to follow. IIRC, I ended up manually editing the links (on my side) in order to follow the time travel story line; again IIRC, it was a pretty simple pattern replacement once I figured out the problem.

I also think that it's a shame when cool webcomics like Sokora Refugees stop updating and then simply disappear. At least it has a Wikipedia entry and two volumes of print collections but I don't think that all of it made it into print.

That's all for my rambling reminiscences. I can tell from the post dates that I'm probably three months too late but I figured that I'd throw that out there.

[Dr Neo Lao]

The reason that IA failed to grab the comic itself is that CG (and KS before it) have anti-hotlinking in place to stop people leeching the comics and taking up all the bandwidth.

If a comic was on it's own host without protection then IA would probably do a better job of archiving it.

The comic itself may be considered “art” while the website is considered the “gallery”. Is that correct?

I wouldn't think of it quit that way, but it seems fairly acurate. It depends on the comic itself. A "standard" comic that keeps everything 'within the comic' and only non-story elements are on the rest of the site (links page, archive page, news page, etc) then the site would be considered the 'gallery' or the 'wall' that is used to display the artwork.

However, if a comic has other elements to it then the line gets blurred a bit. If a comic has story elements in the comic itself, and also has some aditional story pages, plus character pages and videos / music that all had parts of the overall story in them, then the entire site becomes part of the 'canvas' so to speak.

[Turnsky]

i've got a mad fan who saves every single page i make for his own offline viewing...

[Dr Legostar]

i've got a mad fan who saves every single page i make for his own offline viewing...

as do I. and mine was offering to set up a zip file of them for other people to view.

[Turnsky]

i've got a mad fan who saves every single page i make for his own offline viewing...

as do I. and mine was offering to set up a zip file of them for other people to view.

mine's going the extra step of making a specialised viewer for it.

[Webkilla]

I think the idea is VERY good - hell, it should be mandatory and automatic (site-rip-bots anyone?)

I recall comics such as The Ram and Counter Culture, both wonderful and good webcomics - now gone...

why?

The Ram just up and disappeared... and CC, well, the artist and writer just didn't want to do it anymore, so they tore down everything!

GAH! I hate it when people do something like that! They comics were good - high quality! Just because you aren't making it anymore doesn't mean it shouldn't be there for people to see

preserve on!