Here we go again. (Had a big-ass argument planned, and my computer ate it, so you must deal with version 2.3 of my argument....bah.)
McDuffies wrote:Anyways, being that DD is somewhat male-centric, in many cases appearance of female character results in sexual tension, and sexual tension almost always results in something violent or creepy (and if Dominic fantasizing of group sex with multiple copies of his Luna isn't creepy, then I don't know what is). That's why disproportionatly lagre number of female characters in DD is victimized, and why people get impression that Mookie is a mysoginist.
I always imagined the sex (or lack thereof) to be a recurring sort of joke, where it just never happens because every time it's hinted as, as you mention, something gets in the way- all the embarassing things that could ever happen just happen, like having your mother walk in on you. Although I has a chuckle when I saw the zillion Luna's tending to Dominic and his "Leg of Love". I didn't consider it creepy in the least, though if they had been naked or holding bed toys, the creep factor would be there for me. As it is, it was just a bunch of Luna's in lingerie.
Dominic Durgan wrote:But, plot holes. He's been shown to be one of the "learning" types before, but then suddenly that changes - as soon as the terrible plot demands it. Mookie decides it would simply be neat beans to have Gregory go all superwizard and show off how "cool" white magic can be when used offensively. He pays no regard to what he's plotted before, nor the repercussions it may have in the future. It's just there because it's "cool", which is a reprehensible way to structure a narrative.
You have to admit, when he does end up making major plot holes, he manages to fix them rather nicely. (for the most part...like someone else here mentioned, the explanation for why Luna never got her teeth fixed was sort of odd.) The ones that you're picking our are very intricate, and I think most people would only notice them if they were really reading into the comic on purpose, to search for errors. Mind, this doesn't make them any less valid, but the plot holes that do exist are there because the explanation to fill them in is sort of odd (again, Luna's teeth) or it's simply been left out because it's not a huge issue in the world of the Deegan-verse.
Dominic Durgan wrote:I'll be honest: never played a single Final Fantasy game. But in other RPGs, I know, it's fair convention for the "temple" or "church" to be the place of healing. Well, and inns. Right off the top of my head I can think of the healing class from Diablo being the paladin, the holy knight, and clerics from D&D (and related games) being the chief healers.
Man, paladins suck. They can't do anything cool. Except scream in moral outrage and charge in. At least White Mage had a cool hammer.
Here's another thought for the church; maybe he mentioned it because he's planning on returning to that plot point soon enough. Kinda like how he foreshadowed that Neileen was planning something with the Dominic-Luna relationship long before he actually engaged with the story, and like how he mentioned that Siggy had a rival but you don't get to see said rival until way later in the comic. After all, cramming in all explanations about every facet of the world his characters as based in just gets confusing and boring to read. Having them explained when it's time is better for the readers, so although it seems like a gaping plot hole at present time, he'll probably return to it eventually, especially if Gregory decided he's had enough time playing around. (he mentioned that he wanted some time to himself before he joined the church).
Dominic Durgan wrote:So you can name five characters - are they main characters? Or incidental ones? In order of appearance we've got Luna's mother: evil, then dead. Luna: hyper-depressed for no legitimate reason. Jayden: mind-controlled and forced to renounce her generic god. Rachel: (eventually) emotionally crushed by her sports star idols (what a retarded thing to have in a fantasy webcomic) turning out to be repugnant womanisers. The nurse: beaten up and almost raped by said womanisers. Amelia: evil, slut, dead. What few positive characters we have turn out to be either chronically depressed or have suffered some injustice in their life. Or they're Rachel who apparently hasn't had her turn yet.
Mmm. The ones I had in mind weren't minor characters, but they certainly weren't major players either, so the point that I had made becomes moot then, if you were simply referring to the characters in the main cast.
Dominic Durgan wrote:Male characters, yes, get beaten up. This is because Mookie is such a bad writer, one of the only ways he can do "drama" is to have someone get their ass beat. Oh look how brave [character] is for getting so hurt defending [female character]/freedom/truth/justice/the american way. Another topos, another one from the pulp era. Goes hand in hand with the other way he does drama, which is AAAAAANGST. Oh you don't know what it's like when your brother is EVIL wah wah wah. Also a lot of rain.
A lot of stories have characters beaten up to add drama (i.e, in Yu-Gi-Oh, they use cards instead of fists and that's a good thing because everyone would have a black eye- lots of characters in that show do anyways), and likewise in the Deegan-verse there do exist plots without fists being involved. Take the present one, with Neileen. So far, no one's been beaten up, though I can't see that lasting for very long. Also, with Nimmel (the dude with one eye), there was drama when he was about to commit suicide for betraying the confidence of Miranda and his classmates- no fists went flying there, though a giant hand of water might have intervened. Though I'll be the first to agree there's a lot of violence involved, I've always seen the violence as a side-effect to the drama occuring, as opposed to the cause of it.
The angst caused from Deegan having a necromancer for a brother is more because Jacob is out to kill everyone, as opposed to the typical "Poor me, my brother is evil, I must mope about it now." Dominic has never actually done that, I don't believe.
Dominic Durgan wrote:Demon doesn't count, she's evil. Evil women aren't worthy of the hero's love, so they die. Miranda Deegan... man, there's probably some deep Freudian stuff going on there, so I wouldn't touch the subject with a ten foot cattle prod.
If we're talking main characters and not the supporting cast, you've got: Gregory and Dominic representing Da XY Krew. Meanwhile, you've got Luna, Nurse whatsherface, Melna and Miranda Deegan. Perhaps if you throw in the cat and Donovan Deegan it equals out, but in terms of "people who do a lot of stuff on panel" the women outnumber the men.
Aw, man, an entirely new discussion can be created just based on who's supposed to be the main cast!! Doninc, Luna and Spark are definitely the three main ones, but Mookie cycles through his characters so often it's hard to pinpoint exactly who's who. Though if you mention Miranda, you have to throw in the bard father as well; and the nurse is only a romantic interest for Gregory, another guy. Recurring bad guys are Celesto, the dude with no eyes, Karnak and Jacob- all males. The first two recurring bad guys were Stunt and Bumper- also guys. Melna and Rachel were girls, and Melna seems to be more and more of a main cast type, but Rachel has basically vanished. There seems to be a greater presence of males in the plot than females, so I stand by my earlier conclusion- it may seem that more bad stuff happens to the gals because there's less of them, so it's more evident when it does happen. Heh, I think someone should make a chart of all the characters that ever appeared on Deegan and keep score of male vs female injuries. That's bound to be amusing.
Dominic Durgan wrote:Science fiction is defined as a work of fiction set in a world based upon the rules and laws of our own. That is, gravity and physics and all that. Fantasy is defined as a work of fiction set in a world with its own set of rules. That means if the whole thing is set on the back of a dragon, there are no rules which state the dragon must be standing on something or what have you. In other words, it is fantastical. However, it still has rules.
Dominic Deegan would be aptly defined as a mess. It has no definitive rules, no structure to it. Even ignoring the gaping plot holes everywhere, it lacks cohesion and is continually changed as Mookie decides he'd really like to incorporate some other dire interpretation of something neat he's read in a crappy comic book. Though worlds can change, over the course of time, there is usually some kind of guiding structure to it. That is, if the creator is a true creator and a good writer.
There is a whole bunch of rules that go along with the Deegan verse, and they're explained in part in this comic:
http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2005-01-10
The rules and the world haven't really changed- it's been added onto. For instance, take Naruto- they all start out in one village, and eventually you get to learn more and more about the surrounding lands. That's what Mookie has done; you start out in the little village of stupid people, then through travelling and adventures you learn more and more about the surroundings- the same is true for most anime, and most other stories, for that matter.
Dominic Durgan wrote:Deegan's world is governed by the teenage mentality of "WOULDN'T IT BE COOL IF" which is pretty much the most terrible thing to govern a world by. On the plus side, his morbid fear of sexuality seems to drive off the "let's make it DARK" impulse that other tawdry hacks share. Yeah, McFarlane, I'm lookin' at you.
Because it started out as a gag-a-day strip, most the jokes were based on inprobability. That goes for most gag strips, and that's what makes them funny. (ie, in Calvin and Hobbes, there was a strip where Calvin broke his father's binoculars, and when he showed Hobbes, the pieces were simply a pile of dust- that was seriously inprobable!! How could a kid that young manage to grind up a pair of metal and glass so that all that remained was dust...? But that's what made it funny- because it's not something you were exactly expecting.) As Deegan progressed into a story, things that are inprobable continue to happen, but again, many other stories use that theme. In Zap!, a dude who's lost his memories finds out he's suddenly the captain of a ship; wouldn't that be cool? In Comedity, the main character and a friend decide to become superheroes and fight supervillains...without any previous experience or anything. Wouldn't that be cool? Lots of web comics are based on the artists trying out things that would certainly be cool.
The lack of sex simply might be because Mookie doesn't want to weird out his audience. Gore and blood are almost expected in mainstream media, but sex? Ack!! Hike the ratings!! Either way, as the plot progresses, Dominic and Luna move closer and closer to actually doing the hanky panky, so if Mookie actually had a fear, it's kinda going away now.
Dominic Durgan wrote:leperdoctor wrote:...And I disagree with Naruto!! Not everyone has a power to draw upon- allow me to present the most useless character known to anime: Sakura!! She sits by the sidelines with her massive intelligence and control, and...does nothing. Except for the will power to cut her own hair, she's just stupid...she couldn't even defend her teammates from other people...
Naruto has the chakra of the nine-tails. Sasuke has his seething angsty hate of his eeeevil elder brother (and you were asking for examples of Deegan stealing crap). Rock Lee wants to be the best he can be. Neji wants to be recognised by the main family.
Might not all be mystical in nature, but everyone in shonen manga/anime has something they aim for. Even in the best shonen manga ever made, One Piece, the characters have their inner strength.
Yeah, most of them have their inner strength...except Sakura. She has intelligence. Without anywhere to use it, except in an exam room where everyone else figures out the same thing as she does. So most the characters in Naruto have something to draw upon, some special feature that makes them cool, and Sakura...is simply there to have a girl on the team. And to be stupid.
I think there's a long list of characters in general who have evil family members- Naruto, as you mentioned with Sasuke and his itchy brother, Dragonball Z (Goku's brother, Raditz, is rather evil, and Vegeta is bad, making his son have an evil father), Inu-Yasha (Sesshie is evil), etc. So if Mookie is stealing from someone because of the presence of an evil brother character in his story, than there's a whole lot of other someone's doing some thieving over the evil brother thing.
Dominic Durgan wrote:leperdoctor wrote:If you look at his first comic and then look at his latest, you can see a great deal of improvement from when he started to where he is now. He's gradually improved with a number of things as his web comic goes on, but the reason his art doesn't change drastically is because that's where he's most comfortable. Most people develop their own style of art, and not everyone likes it. For instance, there's an anime with girls who have protruding cheek bones...it's bothersome to look at. For me, anyways. Seriously, they could cut glass with them. And although I don't like the faces, it works for that anime. Not to mention you would be able to pick their characters out from a lineup a mile away! Similarly, Mookie has developed his characters to fit a style he enjoys drawing. Not everyone is bound to like his drawing style, but it's his personal preference. If everyone drew the same anime characters, that would be no fun!!
You'd think in five years he'd learn how to draw a nose. The lines may be cleaner, but it's the same terrible crap as it's always been.
You may not like the nose that he draws, but I most certainly am irked by the protruding cheek that Saber Marionette draws!! After five seasons, you'd think they'd learn how to draw a cheek! But. It works. Certain people have certain styles. Those styles may not always look right to you- there's a couple webcomics I started to read where the art was kind of awkward, for me, but it's the artists' choice on how they draw things. If every artist who was ever criticized for a specific part of their art decided to change it, we would have a never-ending change of art styles until...everything looks the same. If everyone has their own little quirks with their drawing skills, like I said before, it makes the world less boring. Besides, I think you focus way on Mookie's nose too much- watch Escaflowne, and you'll appreciate his itty-bitty schnoze!!
Oh, and I just remembered- there's a web comic out there that's quite awesome (It's called "Goblins", based on DND), and the way the artist draws his character sis so strange!! They're...lumpy. There's no real straight lines in the characters- that'd be one it took me a while to get used to. But the thing about his characters is that it looks cool after a while.
Dominic Durgan wrote:leperdoctor wrote:Bwa hah, there WAS royalty at one point!! Siggy's father, of course. The dude who's head was kinda ripped off and tossed out a window. He was a King or something, and the knights of callahan followed him- at least Lord Siegfried did!! But yeah, there's been a definite lack of royalty anywhere else. I think the orcs were thrown in there because everyone kept making fun of Luna and telling her she looked like an orc, so voila- Luna meets her very first orc!! Though I'll be the last person to disagree about the elves. Even though I have 'elves' in my own web comic (but mine isn't fantasy!!), they're definitely overrated, and somehow manage to appear in way too many fantasy stories. Instead of just inventing a whole new species, they just invent a new species of elves...so now, there's like, one hundred billion of the suckers running around. If someone cares to kill Sakura, I add the pointy-eared dudes to their hit list.
Wouldn't know about Pretty Princess's father, seeing how I haven't read that part, but if that's true then I'm pretty entertained by Mookie's apparent complete lack of understanding about how nobility works. Might go read it now for a laugh.
Elves and orcs... look at it this way: if George Lucas was to sci-fi what Tolkein is to fantasy, then the majority of sci-fi stories would be set long, long ago in galaxies far, far away. There would be wookies and jawas in each one. And they would all have the Force.
This is why the best fantasy being published today is either modern fantasy or written by Terry Pratchett.
Or Mercedes Lackey. Or R.A.Salvatore, when he's not writing about Drizzt. And old school fantasy is still awesome, when it's not based off of Tolkien's works. I have a bunch of books like that, but they're the random authors that pop up to do somehting really aweosme and then vanish. They get eaten by the crappy authors or something.
Dominic Durgan wrote:leperdoctor wrote:Bwa, I'm strung out on energy drinks, it's all good. I agree with half the points you made, though. So the major rip-offs have been DND, Final Fantasy and then what you call 'topoi'. Aside from the church of white mages, the rip-offs you mentioned were very general and ones that a lot of people use- it's just that Mookie uses them a great deal more. Were there specific rip-offs that you found about his web comic, or were they all general, like the topoi?
Also, sorry in advance for any major spelling errors I've made. It's quite late where I am. <.<
Mookie, despite what I say, isn't a gigantic idiot who smells bad. He's smart enough to know that directly copying from his favourite animu is going to have people going "dogg this sucks hardcore" and treating him like a talentless hack. That is, how he
deserves to be treated.
Mookie craves fan adoration, to have people go "OH MOOKIE-SAMAAAAA UR SO GR10!!!" and basically shower him with praise for being so great. Actual writers, though we like it when people like our stuff, prefer the more...
technical talk. If we want meaningless praise for any old crap, we'll go to our mothers. What we
want is people to critique our works. We want to be told what
makes it good, or bad, and the intricate details.
This is why Mookie closed his forums, as it happens. Couldn't stand people not circlejerking about his stuff. Hated the fact that some people took issue with his status as LORD OF ALL FANTASY FOR THE 21ST CENTURY, THE IMMACULATE REBIRTH OF TOLKEIN.
So, Mookie doesn't take directly. He instead relies on conventions and topoi. He will watch some film or read some comic and go, "I liked it when this character did this, I'll do something similar in Dominic Deegan. That way, people who liked this [film/comic] will like Dominic Deegan!"
Like a photocopier, all he does is reproduce things without understanding anything about them. He has Deegan deal with terrible customers, because that's a staple in many, many webcomics. Even Ctrl-Alt-Del, the only webcomic that caters exclusively to the mentally incompetent, has main characters having to deal with clinically brain dead customers.
Using specific ripoffs isn't Mookie's style. He fancies himself as an actual writer (which is a concept that
always makes me shudder in revulsion) and so won't bother lifting things wholesale. But Deegan reads like a parody - scenes where you think "Haven't I seen this kind of thing a billion times before?"
But if you can't actually point out a particular case where something has actually been lifted from another artist, how do you know that's what happened? People come up with similar ideas without ripping each other off. And like you even mentioned, there's a pool of classic genres that people overuse, and you say that Mookie simply uses those themes way too much. If that's the case, then everyone who has ever used these themes is at fault, which I don't think is the case. He has been inspired in certain areas, and he mentions as much- bigotry towards the orc race has always existed in the Deegan-verse, but it really came to light after Mookie watched two movies, one of which was Crash- a movie that centers around racism. But being inspired by a theme and including it in your plot is way different then watching a movie about an african mocking spanish people for their parking skills, and then having a scene in your comic where a member of one race mocks a member of another race for their parking skills. (or carriage skills?) Everyone gets inspiration from the randomest places, and sometimes you're inspired to use an old theme that's already been done to death, but that doesn't make you a portable photocopier.
Dominic Durgan wrote:"Character gets beaten up while protecting someone" is practically Deegan's motto, and you can see it done before and done better in a million different animus. Or films from the Eighties. Or comic books. Or, well, pretty much everything else.
Just like having a damsel in distress has been done so many times. And having a man come to save her. And having magic and talking animals- done to death. Or magic healers. Or revenge plots. Or plots involving murder. Or love, or friendship, or betrayal- done to death! But if Mookie is ripping off everyone around him to make up his plots, then isn't everyone who uses anything similar also doing the same thing? If a random artist were to write about a plot involving an evil big brother, would that be ripping off all the countless people who have already employed that particular mould?
Dominic Durgan wrote:So while I can't say for sure that Deegan is ripping off a specific show or film, the webcomic itself makes it abundantly clear it's just a loose collection of crap Mookie likes redone with atrocious art.
What's 'abundantly clear' is actually more of a personal opinion. I enjoy the story, the art, and the characters, and although that may make you shake your head in disbelief, there's lots of other people who share my opinion. Granted, quantity of people sharing one opinion doesn't make that opinion any more valid- take fanatical religions as proof of that- but it indicates that the 'loose collection of crap' is enough for Mookie to make a business out of. I don't know, it's cool that I can turn my computer on every morning and there's a new installement uploaded and waiting.
But although my personal opinion of Dominic Deegan is unchanged- I still read him, and I still will- I also believe you (and some of the other people before) had a lot of valid criticisms about his plot and characters. Once Mookie puts up his new forum (whenever his web dude gets it uploaded and waiting), throwing some of the criticisms in the forum for him to see might help him get rid of some of the plot holes that are really grating at people. I only glanced at his old forum, but I didn't see any of the major fights between older, disappointed fans and other fans. I didn't look for it either, but is it possible that the way the arguments were presented was more of a bash-fest then a helpful pointer?
Bwa. I'm going to bed now. But it might be something to do, in the future when the new forum goes up.
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