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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:05 am
by TheSuburbanLetdown
I think it's funny how everyone tries to jump on the anime bandwagon now. In the not too distant past, anything that looked Japanese was avoided. For example video game packaging was redrawn to look less Japanese and ended up looking like romance novels.

Here's the Mega Man box for the American Release
This is what the character looks like

This is the boxes for the same game:
http://www.algol-star-system.net/data-m ... ps2_12.jpg
http://www.estarland.com/images/product ... 4/4503.jpg

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:15 am
by Protectmyballs
I agree with Neko, even if he does have spikey hair in his comic.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:24 am
by TheSuburbanLetdown
protectmyballs wrote:I agree with Neko, even if he does have spikey hair in his comic.

Ack! I remember that riducilous farce.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:34 am
by Wishmaster
All I can do is make the kinds of comics I enjoy reading. If they are perceived as typical American superhero comic crap, well, at least I like them.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:40 am
by Black Sparrow
wishmaster wrote:All I can do is make the kinds of comics I enjoy reading. If they are perceived as typical American superhero comic crap, well, at least I like them.


Just a little edit, and you've also shown my feelings quite nicely. :)

All I can do is make the kinds of comics I enjoy reading. If they are perceived as low-quality imported Japanese manga/anime ripoffs, well, at least I like them.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:42 am
by Wishmaster
Black Sparrow wrote:Just a little edit, and you've also shown my feelings quite nicely. :)


Well, I guess the door swings both ways then.




Now stop drawing that crap!

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:43 am
by Dotty
What to say...what to say. So torn, so conflicted. Specks of anger, a dab of rage.

I've seen both good and bad in all of this, so it is doing a bit of healthy things....but overall is it bad? I don't know. I don't pretend to be part of any comic book industry.

The good I've noted is with the rising popularity of anime (which is good, in my opinion, even if the hardcore fanboys from the dawn of anime loving days now are pissed because their secret treasured thing is mainstream now) is the influence on the styles of american comic books.

The ones that are blatently ripping off Anime? No. Not those ones. Side question to help with this point....is teen titans even japanese? Cause the theme song and animation style suggest it.

I mean the ones like one of the 4 spider man issues that come out (which by the way, is my personal opinion on what destroyed the american comic book....i have to buy 4 fucking issues of spiderman a month/two months to follow the goddamn story. fuck that.) had a massive style change. They hired some new artist guy who did some other stuff (no idea on the name) but the style can be best described as "cartoony". I noticed his art when he drew the Green Goblin (another reason american comics piss me off....WHY DO YOU KEEP BRINGING BACK OLD AND VERY DEAD VILLAINS WITH STUPID CLONE STORIES?!!? ARGH) the goblins face was all curvey, and very cartoonish in shape and expression. I loved it.

I've noticed American comic art is getting very Japanese with color expression, and with overall look. Sometimes I hear a term called "Fusion" which means it's japanese and american art COMBINED. Sorry, but I like Fusion. It makes me think of another word....Evolution.

I love the American comic book. I love Batman. I love....no...wait...that's about it. Okay, so Batman is awesome. I love Batman. But seriously, he's not changed much since his conception, and if it took anime coming to Americans in droves to change coloring, atmosphere, and designs, so the comic might actually feel fucking fresh for the first time in decades (seriously guys, how the fuck does scarecrow get out of arkham every 5 months....wouldn't they burn the place down and build a competent arkham by now? damn...) and I might actually be interested in reading it again.

As far as the newspaper strips go? Seriously, have you ever sat down and read those things recently? Most boring, bland, retarded, recycled jokes I've ever heard, with the occasional exception in Doonesbury....and he has his moments. I'm not sure what I think of anime/manga in my newspaper....but if it makes the page actually worthwhile to read, and maybe hell, save the newspaper comic industry from going defunct PERIOD, which is where it was going anyways, then I'm for it.

Face it, things change. This is one of those things. We just have to ride out the storm, and see where things stand in 10 years. Remember Barney the purple dinosaur? I know I'll never forget how for a couple years he was on EVERYTHING and was EVERYWHERE...and now I find him in discount bins.

Food for thought. Oh, and if you didn't get my point, I personally blame the writers for this. If the American comic was actually INTERESTING and not filled with RETARDED CLONE STORIES (mainly spiderman...jesus god that was retarded. Goblin, Riley....GAH JUST STOP IT) to the point that they were actually MAKING FUN OF THEMSELVES with poor little normie waiting outside for his dad to come home. When spidey/parker asked him why...cause his dad was dead....little normie commented "everyone else is coming back, so why can't my dad?" or something to that effect.

Doctor Octopus was brought back to life with rituals. Same with calypso. I have an AWESOME idea guys! MAKE UP NEW BAD GUYS. INTERESTING ONES! </endrant>

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:44 am
by Ryuko
I think everyone is jumping to conclusions saying that the stuff they're publishing is automatically Americrap pablum. I've read both of these titles, and Peach Fuzz, while not directed towards my age group, is cute and funny. Van Von Hunter is pretty hilarious. I don't understand why people make differences between Amerimanga and Manga and American Comics. They're all COMICS for Christ's sake... Even though some American manga titles are irritatingly derivative and stupid, you could say the same about Manga and American comics. It's just easier to see the sucky people because the field is so small right now. I don't see anything wrong with it, honestly, and it's not because I like manga. It's because I like comics.

It just seems to me sometimes that people in the webcomics community are negative to every type of comic that's not a webcomic. (Or any type of comic that makes money...)

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:52 am
by Jim North
I agree with Ryuko for the most part. Really, a comic's influence shouldn't matter even half as much as whether the comic was well done or not. Even purely derivative works can be good if they're done right.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:54 am
by Ryuko
Indeed. And that's what people will say about my Tokyopop project, once my artist and I pitch it and it gets accepted...

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 11:12 am
by Keffria
I guess I should clarify: I'm a manga fangirl, in that I spend all my tip money on the stuff, and I read it indiscriminately, from girly high-school romance to violent horror.

But I also like to read North American comics (though I usually get them from the library), and I don't understand the absolutely rabid obsession some artists - particularly webcomic artists - have with drawing things "just the way [insert manga artist's name here] does". That's what's at the heart of my personal ire.

(That and the random insertion of "otaku-speak" into sentences because "it's so kawaaiiiii~!" Makes me want to dish out some classic Grievous Woundage.)

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 11:43 am
by Phact0rri
I'm in the school who likes sequencial art I suppose. I use to be big into super heroes, thats where it all started, but these days I just read very few and its more about a good story (which most of em lack). I have no prefrence of art style, and the more you read manga the more (at least me) can notice that all manga artist (even the big eye ones) are not the same they have diffrences in how they see things. I always figured the big eyes face shapes were equal to the north american comic artists who like to draw exagerated anatomies.. there is no diffrence, just emotion over action.

I find it funny however so many people do this American verse Japan comic stuff. I see no diffrence. they are all just graphical stories. like webcomics, some are good some are not. don't matter what country its from. I support comics in all thier forms, cause its an art form I love.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:01 pm
by CJBurgandy
my opinions reflect Phact's a lot. true, I didn't start out with superhero comics (although I really liked them too growing up) I started out on Archie comics, and sadly, I'm filled with obscure archie knowledge. I like both American and Japanese style comics. My main requirements is that it's a good story that I can get into. I'm not rabid on either form, (although I used to be) I've picked up plently of Japanese comics that are just as painful to read as a comic where Cheryl Blossom has been recolored to make Ginger Lopez. (damn it Archie, if you want hispanic characters bring back old hispanic characters you already had! Frankie Valdez deserves a voice!!!)

If you look through my favorite links, you'd see I have a varied taste on style on webcomics, from Cute ADM, to dark anime influenced Kagerou.

Truely, why does it matter what the style is, as long as you're enjoying the reading experence? I mean, isn't that what reading comics is about, having fun while doing it?

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:04 pm
by ManyWorlds
I don't mind American artists being influnced by manga. That sort of thing is going to happen, regardless of what anyone wants. I don't even mind the occaisonal bits of otaku-speek, as long as its in character.

What bugs me is crap that tries to use as many anime-cliches as possible for no real reason. The Teen Titans cartoon is a prime example. That show makes me wince in pain.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:20 pm
by Dotty
cjburgandy wrote:Truely, why does it matter what the style is, as long as you're enjoying the reading experence? I mean, isn't that what reading comics is about, having fun while doing it?


By god, the woman's nuts. The only way she could be even more crazy is if she suggested we try enjoying new and different things!

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:29 pm
by TheSuburbanLetdown
TdotOdot2k wrote:
cjburgandy wrote:Truely, why does it matter what the style is, as long as you're enjoying the reading experence? I mean, isn't that what reading comics is about, having fun while doing it?


By god, the woman's nuts. The only way she could be even more crazy is if she suggested we try enjoying new and different things!
That sounds scary. We fear what's different.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 1:01 pm
by CaptainClaude
TdotOdot2k wrote:1) They hired some new artist guy who did some other stuff (no idea on the name) but the style can be best described as "cartoony". I noticed his art when he drew the Green Goblin (another reason american comics piss me off....WHY DO YOU KEEP BRINGING BACK OLD AND VERY DEAD VILLAINS WITH STUPID CLONE STORIES?!!? ARGH) the goblins face was all curvey, and very cartoonish in shape and expression. I loved it.



2) I've noticed American comic art is getting very Japanese with color expression, and with overall look. Sometimes I hear a term called "Fusion" which means it's japanese and american art COMBINED. Sorry, but I like Fusion. It makes me think of another word....Evolution.

3) I love the American comic book. I love Batman. I love....no...wait...that's about it. Okay, so Batman is awesome. I love Batman. But seriously, he's not changed much since his conception, and if it took anime coming to Americans in droves to change coloring, atmosphere, and designs, so the comic might actually feel fucking fresh for the first time in decades (seriously guys, how the fuck does scarecrow get out of arkham every 5 months....wouldn't they burn the place down and build a competent arkham by now? damn...) and I might actually be interested in reading it again.

4) As far as the newspaper strips go? Seriously, have you ever sat down and read those things recently? Most boring, bland, retarded, recycled jokes I've ever heard, with the occasional exception in Doonesbury....and he has his moments. I'm not sure what I think of anime/manga in my newspaper....but if it makes the page actually worthwhile to read, and maybe hell, save the newspaper comic industry from going defunct PERIOD, which is where it was going anyways, then I'm for it.



1) Humberto Ramos I think you're talking about, make some interesting art that's not cookie cutter, thats what they're selling to us in these Tokyopop books, most of the time i can pick a book out of one series and find the art virtually the same in another.

2) Joe Madureira's fault on Xmen during the nineties and early Naughties. You get that art on the biggest selling American comics title, it's gonna go boom. EXPLODE ON YOU!

3) You dont love Batman, you love the idea of Batman </Streisand> They did a couple of batman mangas. I never bothered looking. The best thing I ever saw done with the character were the accessible two burton movies, the Nowlan one and Tony Millionaire's comedy Batman tale in Bizarro Comics compendium. Now THAT is different. DC's been doing a good job with the small press integration in stuff like bizarro comics.

4) On the subject at hand, I never cared much for newspaper strips myself, but if you're gonna go for something Manga-ish, dont go thru tokyopop. Bad newspapers, bad. It also seemed odd that they'd be targetting the youth with it. They wont sit around for the rest of the paper, they'll just read the comics when they're around. and more than likely not pay.

That loast bit can probably be shot full of holes.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 1:41 pm
by Ryuko
I don't get what's such a big deal about this. Everyone's influenced by something, and ryclaude, if you think that all the different American manga titles coming out from Tokyopop are exactly the same, you need to pick up an issue of Rising Stars of Manga and actually LOOK at it. Early on, I agree, the Tokyopop original publications were a lot alike. But that's partly because a lot of the same artists were working on them.

If you look at the winner of the most recent contest, it hardly looks like manga at all! (and it's awesome. He totally deserved to win.)

The only way this could be done is with American artists, since Japanese humor strips are done up and down and have weird Japanese humor that Americans don't always find funny. And though I agree that Peach Fuzz and to a lesser extent Van Von Hunter may not be the best comics for a strip format, I think that you really have no reason to be upset about this idea.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 1:56 pm
by Princess
The Neko wrote:The reason manga does so well in the US seems to be that it targets women, who have been almost completely ignored by the American comics industry. When searching out new titles, and there is almost always an emphasis on Shoujo. However, there is also a lot of variety in the comics intended for boys; there is plenty of comedy and romance. This sort of variety isn't found in the US.


AND BINGO WAS HIS NAME-O

When I started buying my own comics I was an 11 year old girl, so I went straight for the pretty Sailor moon and Peach girl mangas and ignored the yukky smelly super hero boys stuff.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:04 pm
by Bustertheclown
Here's where I qualify some of the things I've said:

I don't want this to become a Japan hater thread, and I'm glad it hasn't become so. I worded my rant carefully in order to try to prevent such a thing from happening. As I'd stated before, this isn't about manga vs. American comics. Yes, when it comes to comics, I am a bit of a nationalist. I think that it's important that cultural lines be drawn, because it's an opportunity to learn about culture through art and entertainment, at least on a somewhat superficial level. There ARE differences between American comics, European comics (and further differences between comics from country to country in Europe), Mexican comics, Middle Eastern comics, etc. I believe that those differences should be celebrated, and I also believe there's room enough for everything. I don't even mind stylistic evolutions that have taken place within certain American cartooning circles, as long as those evolutions come about through knowledge of a culture. To me, it's not enough to do something just because it looks cool.

At the core, though, my rant wasn't about cultural differences, and how these differences are changing American comics. At the core my rant was about the state of doing business within the American comic industry as a whole. I'm very bothered that the solution to the problem of a dying artform isn't to fix what's killing it, namely lackluster over-recycled concepts created by committee, but instead just replace it altogether with less used, flashier cliches made by different committees. It happened in comic books, and now it's happening in comics strips. Meanwhile, there are hundreds, possibly thousands of spectacular creators, with spectacular creations that are wholly American which will, at best, stay on the obscure fringes of cartooning's "alternative" scene. There are people right now creating mind blowingly fresh and innovative and wholly individual work, and they're doing so because of a love of comics. They sure ain't doing it because they're getting paid. Could you imagine, though, what things would look like if the industry drew upon the endless resource that is the labor-of-love creators?

The creative force that can fix our industry is going to lie in perpetual obscurity, while the industry moves from weak fad to weak fad in order to keep their business alive for another decade. Fifteen years ago, it was a focus on "independent" superhero books like Image, Malibu, and Valiant fare. Ten years ago, it was "bad girl" comics like Lady Death. Five years ago, things were actually looking up! Truly independent publishers like Top Shelf, SLG and Fantagraphics were gaining major footholds with high quality, fresh, innovative work! But, it was only for a short time before manga made it's grand entrance.

So, again, we're not in "fix what's broken" mode. We're in "milk that cash cow until it runs dry" mode. And, five or ten years from now, when the novelty of manga wears off, and sales begin to plateau and drop off, suddenly the industry will be face to face with the same old predicament. That does nobody any good.

By the way,Teen Titans is American. It's created by Americans, and produced by Warner Brothers.