Why Trojan Condoms are good to use (aka dumbass email)

[Godoftarot]

Grass-type starter Pokemon in Ruby and Sapphire versions. Sometimes, younger cousins can be such a benefit.

--Sij

If it weren't for the fact that my nickname comes from a Pokemon, I'd point and laugh...

[Mr.Bob]

BUY VIAGRA CHEAP!

Even the spammers mistake your gender

[RPin]

To his credit, he has improved greatly.

I agree, but it's no reason for me to get off his back just yet.

STREDWOLF! I'M OVER YOU LIKE THAT FATSO IS OVER HAMBURGERS

[Phact0rri]

BUY VIAGRA CHEAP!

Even the spammers mistake your gender

*knows he shouldn't laugh-- BUT DOES MANY TIMES!*

[Phalanx]

BUY VIAGRA CHEAP!

Even the spammers mistake your gender

*knows he shouldn't laugh-- BUT DOES MANY TIMES!*

Don't even get me started on the 'enlargment' spam.

[Mooman]

Now that made me chuckle.

[STrRedWolf]

Okay, folks. Showtime's over. Back to the thread's topic at hand. Please, all the criticism (including over my spelling errors) over in another thread I'll make in a bit.

As to the letter, I can say this: It's par for the course. I've gotten both the good and the bad from folks. And I've also gotten the absolutely clueless message that makes me proud. Gather around, I'll tell you a story.

Early on in Stalag '99 (back in like 2000), a guy from AOL emails me saying I have the worst comic ever. Giving me all the crud one can say. Did all the usual tricks that told me one thing: This idiot doesn't know what he's talking about.

So I fire off a nice lovely "Sam-o-gram" to him. Sam-o-grams are named after a well known, if hard-line, antispammer who would take his time to send fully documented email reports to those ISP's who were clueless. He would detail it down to the line, basically doing the job short of pulling the cable out of the box. In essence, it's like taking a college level course with no overview, in a nice lovely rant that can't be refuted because you've backed it up with evidence.

The guy came back, apologized, and said he'll do his homework next time. I didn't hear from him again.

Take those emails with a grain of salt. Remember, the other person on the other end of the line may be a moron until he proves himself an idiot.

[Godoftarot]

Oddly enough, I haven't gotten any critical e-mails, although I did get one good one. And a couple of fan arts.
Personally, I get enough e-mail about my writing to last me a lifetime.

[BloodKnight]

Just want to give a little apology for this outburst of a thread. Looking back a few hours ago, yes, I do sound like Pockybot.

This scares me.

To be honest, yes it is very arrogant of me thinking that everyone here reads CoG. I don't believe that everyone here reads it, but I do know that I have a few fans of both my writing and elshad's artwork around here. I respect some the artist's and their work here, and sometimes I see a fellow webcomic artist talk about his future plans and successes, or whatever they made for the community (Van's image comic, Star Bored's "99 keen" thread, etc). Lately I have been sounding more rantish then not, probably due to the fact that I'm working at a retail store for christmas, making me lose all social contact outside my walls. That, and I'm realizing how much I suck at darts.

I dislike cristism when they start insulting myself or Elshad. I wasn't necessary pissed off at the big chucky content that he put, more like the final sentence where he says "I'm leeching off someone else's talent." Elshad and I have worked this together for several months before it went up in August and we had some struggles and truimphs. When someone emails me personally and says "You're fucking things up for your artist", that really crosses the line. Elshad *loves* the concept of Chronicles of Garas and is a storyteller himself. In fact, I let him mess around with the script and let him do his thing. The dreadlocks and finishing 'krak'? His idea.

The point I'm trying to make is yes, I'm a bit arrogant. I'm a freaking capricorn with more expectations then a natural d-cup blonde supermodel.

Now time to reply to a few things that really hit me:

I'm talking about the speed at which things happen/pages ratio. Basically, not a lot happens in each page. The story runs slow, and slow updates only make it worse. Do a little calculation and planning. At the rate you're going, it's going to take you one year to output a 50 page issue! Can you fit everything you want it that? Or is it goign to take two years to tell part one? How many years are you going to need to tell the whole of your story then? It's not planning too far ahead. It's gauging a realistic scope for your story. It's pacing.

That is the problem. I can't update more then once a week and yes, it does suck that I only have 50 pages a year. I do not have the benefits of comic companies or people who have time to update twice or three times a week. A japanese manga has over 150-200 pages to play with an issue, while an american comic has 30 or more. I can't fit so many words into one panel and I don't want my readers to read endless paragraphs of one character explaining something. Chapter 1 is only 15 or 16 pages, which in print standards, is literally nothing.

I do admit that my comic is a slow paced, but you have to remember that anything with a load of detail or character development will tend to be slow paced. Look at Dune, Lord of the Rings, or the anime Witch Hunter Robin.

By the way, you are ask how many years it will take to finish the storyline? Even I did have 3 updates a week, it would still take a while to finish off the story. I've already done the first 100 pages and it isn't a fraction of the storyline yet. As I said in another post somewhere else, a journey isn't told in a day.

Another major problem is the portrayal of the characters (say Red). You have her all hyped up by lizard guy, and from that point on the story (and the fight with the orc) has lost all its suspense. At that point we KNOW Red is going to win, even when she gets in a little bit of trouble, we KNOW she's going to make a comeback. The 'little bit of trouble' just feels like a contrived plot device to whip up some "oh no's!" from the reader.

Yes, she was going to win. I admit that.

But I really wanted to do something different with the fighting bit. You see, I really think most of the fighting that is on television, animated or acted, is pretty boring and straightforward. Dragonball, Berserk, Jackie Chan Adventures, etc are all predictable. The main guy is untouchable and will slaughter hundreds of people without as much as a sweat.

When I started writing CoG, I wanted fighting to be somewhat unpredictable. You might guess who might win, but I wanted the reader to know how they win. This is why I had Red and the Orc turn the tides several times. Plus I was really, really, really sick and tired of the typical "big dumb slow guy verses small but nimble fighter." I wanted to show the potential and ..how shall I say it...theme that I had going for this world. Numerous races sitting in a crowd, high magic with the flying carpet, and orcs accepted to civilization. In a way, I'm trying to emulate what Stars Wars did in the bar scene with all the aliens just having fun under one roof.


There, I'm done. Now I'm going to fry my brain cells with some Finnish vodka.

EDIT:

To cheer everyone up...

[Chibiartstudios]

(edit)

Nevermind. Seems you understand my concearns already. Though they where said by other people.

Oh well.

In any case Good luck and count me as a reader.

[Phalanx]

When someone emails me personally and says "You're fucking things up for your artist", that really crosses the line. Elshad *loves* the concept of Chronicles of Garas and is a storyteller himself. In fact, I let him mess around with the script and let him do his thing. The dreadlocks and finishing 'krak'? His idea.

No one will blame you for getting miffed at a personal attack. Neither will they be at you posting the letter. But I did think that your reaction was heading in a rather dangerous direction.

As a writer and creator, you need as we Chinese say: "A thick face". To get good at every single chance you get, you need to learn to extract the useful even from the most abrasive of insults and critiques.

You could just sit and wait and only listen to people who praise then suggest gently how you could improve, but then your improvement rate isn't going to be... to put it mildly... astronomical.

When I started writing CoG, I wanted fighting to be somewhat unpredictable. You might guess who might win, but I wanted the reader to know how they win. This is why I had Red and the Orc turn the tides several times.

I don't know about you, but the fight seemed rather typical to me:

1. Good guy starts off well, kicks monster ass
2. Monster ass kicks back, knocking down good guy. Then takes him time with the finishing blow.
3. Goody guy does the miraculous comeback wins.

Sounds like a typical wrestling match script to me.

I do admit that my comic is a slow paced, but you have to remember that anything with a load of detail or character development will tend to be slow paced. Look at Dune, Lord of the Rings, or the anime Witch Hunter Robin.

No it does not.

In fact I am so emphatic about this point I will repeat it.

No it does not

As a writer with some measure of knowledge of the comic industry, you should have heard about the compressed vs decompressed storytelling argument.

If you haven't, there's a short discussion of it here. And and article on it here. The original topic was brought up by one Will Eisner, I believe... do a search on google to search for more references.

McDuffies calls it 'telling a story in a limited space'. Whatever you call it... 'character development' and 'detailed storyline' should never be an excuse to be long-winded.

edit: And here's an example of how to tell an entire story in 15 pages. That's right. 15 pages.

By the way, you are ask how many years it will take to finish the storyline? Even I did have 3 updates a week, it would still take a while to finish off the story. I've already done the first 100 pages and it isn't a fraction of the storyline yet. As I said in another post somewhere else, a journey isn't told in a day.

Aye. The question is:

A story of epic porportions takes an effort of epic porportions to tell. Are you sure you're capable of that?

Let's be realistic and think about it. 100 pages. And barely a fraction of the story. Presumably let say... the whole story is 500 pages (althought I suspect it may be longer from what you're saying). Still, we'll use that as our working hypothesis.

At a rate of one page per week, providing you don't miss an update, you can have 52 pages per year.

500 / 52 = 9.615...

In short, it's going to take around ten years to tell your story, if the WHOLE story is 500 pages AND you don't miss an update. You might argue that Elshad might have more time in the future, or that you will, but more likely as your life progresses you will have LESS. Work. Family. Commitments.

In ten years time, if you can say that yes, you'll still be working on CoG, and yes, so will Elshad, then that's fine. But if you told me that, you'll excuse me if look a little skeptical.

As for epic, I also happen to know J.R.R Tolkien left the Fellowship dangling in Moria for 10 years before he picked up the book again. A 10 year hiatus? I highly doubt webcomic fans are going to forgive you for that one.

That is the problem. I can't update more then once a week and yes, it does suck that I only have 50 pages a year. I do not have the benefits of comic companies or people who have time to update twice or three times a week. A japanese manga has over 150-200 pages to play with an issue, while an american comic has 30 or more. I can't fit so many words into one panel and I don't want my readers to read endless paragraphs of one character explaining something. Chapter 1 is only 15 or 16 pages, which in print standards, is literally nothing.

Indeed. you don't have th resources. Knowing that fact, why are you still writing your story as though you do?

Don't start something if you know you cannot finish it. If you can't make 365 pages a year, then reduce the scope of your story. Trim it down. Make it a story you can reasonably tell within your lifetime.

I've seen too many comics, like Lovarian Adventures and a few others, who started great, but the slow pace of the story eventually killed them a few years down the line because the creators realised they'd never get it done.

A complete story with less epic-ness, character development and detailed storytelling is ALWAYS worth more than one with more but never gets finished. Everyone wants to know the ending.

Yes, I do realise I've probably brought up a topic that discouraging and that you probably don't even want to think about. But I will bring it up nonetheless. Because I see you going the same way as those other comics.

And if I didn't care, I wouldn't be spending my precious sunday morning posting this.

[YarpsDat]

I agree with Phalanx on the topic of receiving critical comments.
Forget about the personal attacks, and extract the relevant info- that will help you improve your work.

When someone emails me personally and says "You're fucking things up for your artist", that really crosses the line.

Well, when I get an e-mail, I divide it into 3 parts:
1- relevant comments, about art, writing, pacing, ect.
These are the things to add to the to-do list. Things to work on to make my work better.
2- praise comments/ sugarcoating.
These are the things to re-read if I feel down.
3- insults and "U sux" comments.
These are the things to put in the garbage bin.

The 3's are useless. The 2's are moderately usefull.
The 1's are pure gold.

[Soap Soaperson]

edit: And here's an example of how to tell an entire story in 15 pages. That's right. 15 pages.

COOL.

[Godoftarot]

I can understand being miffed by criticism. There are very few people who know how to give useful criticism.
I always get irritated when people tell me I need to improve my art...but not because it's criticism, really. It's sort of like someone handing me a fork with which to eat my soup. Maybe they think it's helpful, but really it does shit for me. Obviously I know I need to work on my art. But most people won't even go so far as to suggest courses, they'll just say "improve your art". That's not at all helpful, which is what miffs me about criticism.

[Locster]

i wish i got criticism

[Jim North]

You suck at making webcomics.

Constructively.

[Chibiartstudios]

i wish i got criticism

Criticism eh!? I got ya covered.

This one will truly be a thinker! I have turn my feelings into words just right so that I may truly convey my soul to you! For you have work that is truly unique and worthy of such deep and well thought out insight. The likes of which these forumites have yet to see! And they have years of internet posting experience mind you!

Now!...

*thinks*

*meditates*

*finds religion* (not related but interesting none-the-less!)

*thinks more*

...

...

I've got it!

*Kicks Locster in the balls*

Hehehe!

*Steals Locster's wallet and flees*

[William G]

I can understand being miffed by criticism.

I dont get miffed...

I get even.

[Alschroeder]

I do admit that my comic is a slow paced, but you have to remember that anything with a load of detail or character development will tend to be slow paced. Look at Dune, Lord of the Rings, or the anime Witch Hunter Robin.

No it does not.

In fact I am so emphatic about this point I will repeat it.

No it does not

As a writer with some measure of knowledge of the comic industry, you should have heard about the compressed vs decompressed storytelling argument.

If you haven't, there's a short discussion of it here. And and article on it here. The original topic was brought up by one Will Eisner, I believe... do a search on google to search for more references.

McDuffies calls it 'telling a story in a limited space'. Whatever you call it... 'character development' and 'detailed storyline' should never be an excuse to be long-winded.

edit: And here's an example of how to tell an entire story in 15 pages. That's right. 15 pages.

By the way, you are ask how many years it will take to finish the storyline? Even I did have 3 updates a week, it would still take a while to finish off the story. I've already done the first 100 pages and it isn't a fraction of the storyline yet. As I said in another post somewhere else, a journey isn't told in a day.

Aye. The question is:

A story of epic porportions takes an effort of epic porportions to tell. Are you sure you're capable of that?

Let's be realistic and think about it. 100 pages. And barely a fraction of the story. Presumably let say... the whole story is 500 pages (althought I suspect it may be longer from what you're saying). Still, we'll use that as our working hypothesis.

At a rate of one page per week, providing you don't miss an update, you can have 52 pages per year.

500 / 52 = 9.615...

In short, it's going to take around ten years to tell your story, if the WHOLE story is 500 pages AND you don't miss an update. You might argue that Elshad might have more time in the future, or that you will, but more likely as your life progresses you will have LESS. Work. Family. Commitments.

What Phalanx said; in fact we (Phalanx and I) did a three-page guest strip for CLAN OF THE CATS which nevertheless covered a lot.
I've been doing my comic for over two years, and I've done eleven major storylines, and I like to flatter myself that SOME, at least, covered some major complex themes. (MALICE AFORETHOUGHT was tackling the worth of the handicapped in society, and the hidden caste system in society you never think about, even more than most of mine. IT'S ALL IN YOUR IMAGINATION tackled what is reality?---is it what's perceived, or is it stranger than that?) Some touched on some major emotional issues, like the death of my eldest autistic son.
Don't get me wrong. There is a place for an epic, even in webcomics. (I refer anyone to UNICORN JELLY, which is a finished epic of amazing proportions and complexity, done in webcomics.) But there were enough small threads and storylines within it---with beginnings, climaxes, and resolutions--- to keep you clicking.
FANS has tackled some amazingly subtle issues, and done quite a few storylines over the past two years.
Not saying CoG should go at the same pace as the rest. But you do risk readers losing patience and moving to something else.---Al

[Alschroeder]

Just got this delightful message from someone who hates Chronicles of Garas. Now as to why they would continue reading the comic back to front, I'm not sure. Here, have a laugh. No, I don't give a shit about 'privacy', although I will leave the jackass' email out of it. It was a rather long email, but this part I liked.

The art is rather good but the flow of action is often difficult to follow and confusing. The dialogue is also difficult to read at times both due to font/size choices, as well as your silly placement and flow of text. You're panels do not seem to be organized with thought to text as is shown by the vast number of ridiculous splts in text that serve only to annoy the reader. Your story is also not that great or intruiging. The beginning is ridiculous. heres how it comes across
some clumsy elf figure walking, oh look a bear, oh but the elf can stare down the bear bravo, oh now its a few days later for some reason and someone is jumping down a tree in what looks like it's meant to be a graceful fashion but the sound effects being so large state otherwise. And now all of a sudden we are at some gladiator match where some presumeabley scottish guy and snooty lizard are having a boring discussion.

Good art does not ever make up for bad writing, and good art does not make up for bad story and action progression.

Thanks for leeching an artist. This won't help his resume or his career.

Now people, I don't mind if you guys agree with him or not, but seriously...he is the only guy who mentions this. A lot of other people tell me that I have one of the best intros for a webcomic, probably due to the lack of "OMG LETS START A COMIC" or "HI, My name is Dickpenis and this my friend who players games all day, Winnie the Pooh" or it isn't sprite.

But, in a nutshell, do you disagree or agree with this guy? Was my writing *that* bad or is it above expectation from a guy who never wrote a comic before ? TELL ME.

Or make fun of the guy. Whatever. I need a beer.

I've been reading CoG from the beginning. Yeah, there's a lot of merit in what he says. I think he's judging it too soon. I don't know how the initial stuff (which WAS confusing) ties in with the fight. But as it stands now...yeah, it's a little confusing.
Bear in mind, too, for every email you receive, there are usually ten people who feel the same,but didn't bother to send in the email.
Learn to read between the lines, though. He's asking you to tighten up your dialogue and make your sequences dovetail together a little more understandably. That's all.
He could have been more politic about it, but it wasn't hate mail. Trust me.---Al