Big Pimpin': Discussion.

[Godoftarot]

But if you weren't being serious, why should you think anyone else was?

I was being serious about showing people how to advertise their fucking comics, and yet they pull one of those moronic indie tricks that wanting your work to be known and succeed is selling out and wrong.

People need to stop being serious by analyzing everything critically to the finest degree, and being seeing things at face value.


Christ, it makes me sick when people being ranting about how White Hydra is a pandering whore by resembling Penny-Arcade, or having somewhat cliched characters in it, or the fact I actually like to hear input by people about what they think about prospect plot lines and character developments. Suddenly I'm a bad guy and "sooooooooooooooooo not indie" because of that. People are so fucking concerned about being indie and not a sellout that they become sellouts to indie culture themselves.

And where's the greatest prolification of these anti-sellout sellouts?
Right here on Keenspace - a shitload of you are too fucking concerned about yourselves and hindering your own progress that you can't even take a little advice on how to get yourself anywhere but off this site.

Next time I have useful advice I might as well be a selfish prick and keep it to myself.

Sheeeeeeeeeeeesh. Who pissed in your coffee this morning?
Why are you letting what we say get to you so much? We're the little people, right? The sellouts? Obviously what we say doesn't mean anything.

[Wp]

For goodness' sakes, not again!

[Van Douchebag]

Sheeeeeeeeeeeesh. Who pissed in your coffee this morning?
Why are you letting what we say get to you so much? We're the little people, right? The sellouts? Obviously what we say doesn't mean anything.

Why the fuck are you still talking to me then?

[Phalanx]

*headache*

Hokay. Cool it, guys.

Van, calm down. No one's specifically accusing WH of selling out or whatever. (Ok, Toxic specifically named me as a sell-out, but even I didn't take offense at that *sends mercenaries after Toxic*)

As far as I can see they're just discussing selling out, and what constitutes it, but just because they're discussing on your thread doesn't mean it applies to you. Has a KS forum thread ever stayed on topic?

And there are plenty of people who have liked the thread and mentioned how useful it is. Heck, take it out of the pimp context and your could probably post it on Comixpedia.

godoftarot, regardless of who started it, it takes two to fight. I still remember what you said last time... but don't. Just please don't.

[Chrismills]

regardless of who started it, it takes two to fight. I still remember what you said last time... but don't. Just please don't.

Hear hear. We all enjoy working on our comics, we all want to see more viewers for whatever reason. No need to get angry at each other.

[Van Douchebag]

Van, calm down. No one's specifically accusing WH of selling out or whatever. (Ok, Toxic specifically named me as a sell-out, but even I didn't take offense at that *sends mercenaries after Toxic*)

Maybe not in this thread, but in the past people on Keenspace have accused me of pandering.

[Joel Fagin]

I was being serious about showing people how to advertise their fucking comics, and yet they pull one of those moronic indie tricks that wanting your work to be known and succeed is selling out and wrong.

I cover this - actualy I cover nearly everything here - in my keeping readers tutorial. The low-down, cheating nature of advertising that everyone dislikes and doesn't want to be a part of just doesn't apply to webcomics. Commercial advertising is mainly there to trick you into spending money before you realise you don't need/want to or wasted your money on rubbish, but webcomics require the readers to come back every day for months and there's no money involved. If they genuinely like the comic, they'll keep coming back. If not, they won't. It's that simple. You can't con them into reading something they dislike for, oh, any more than a month at most, I'd say.

Go to onlinecomics.net. If you have a sizable enough archive, you need to sign up for this right away. You'll net hundreds of hits your first day or so. But don't do what I did - make sure you have a decently-sized archive first. >_>

*adds to said tutorial* Thanks.

- Joel Fagin

[Yeahduff]

You'd only be fooling yourself if you declared White Hydra to be anything other than a commercial entertainment work. And you don't try to fool yourself: You've said explicitly that you don't view comics as an art, but as entertainment. Which is fine. Many people, here and otherwise, do view them as art. In such a view, advertising excessively can be alarming. You want the word to get out, but you have to constantly take stock of whether you're undermining your work or not, particularly if you know what you're doing is not for mass consumption. You gave very good advice in your initial post. The reactions from the "indie sellouts" were to be expected, because such tactics don't mesh with what they do. I for one cringe at the prospect of doing any of that for no reason than personal advancement, but that's just me.

If my earlier comment offended you, I'm sorry. But in every move you've made prior to this topic, I could clearly see your advertising goals, which I personally found abrasive. But let's be honest: That's what you have to do to be poplular. I mentioned it only because I felt it took away from your work, and it certainly kept me from looking at White Hydra.

So sorry. Anyway, any other good ideas out there?

[Van Douchebag]

I cover this - actualy I cover nearly everything here - in my keeping readers tutorial. The low-down, cheating nature of advertising that everyone dislikes and doesn't want to be a part of just doesn't apply to webcomics. Commercial advertising is mainly there to trick you into spending money before you realise you don't need/want to or wasted your money on rubbish, but webcomics require the readers to come back every day for months and there's no money involved. If they genuinely like the comic, they'll keep coming back. If not, they won't. It's that simple. You can't con them into reading something they dislike for, oh, any more than a month at most, I'd say.

Dude, you forgot a really, really, really, reeally, really, really, really, really obvious point - people have to KNOW about a webcomic to start visiting it.

I mean, there are HUGE amounts of people out there who read webcomics yet have never heard of Penny-Arcade.
I mean, the indie vet who told me to stay away from Image hasn't heard of VG Cats.

You theories are extremely flawed, bub. You may know the existance of, of, let's say, Alex and Ilia, but that doesn't mean the other million people who read webcomics know about it.
Get my drift?

You proved what I said by being a indie-orientated idiot.
You're so against advertisement in all its forms you've completely demonized it and forgotten the benefits and benignity of it.

[Van Douchebag]

You'd only be fooling yourself if you declared White Hydra to be anything other than a commercial entertainment work. And you don't try to fool yourself: You've said explicitly that you don't view comics as an art, but as entertainment. Which is fine. Many people, here and otherwise, do view them as art. In such a view, advertising excessively can be alarming. You want the word to get out, but you have to constantly take stock of whether you're undermining your work or not, particularly if you know what you're doing is not for mass consumption. You gave very good advice in your initial post. The reactions from the "indie sellouts" were to be expected, because such tactics don't mesh with what they do. I for one cringe at the prospect of doing any of that for no reason than personal advancement, but that's just me.

What are you? Mentally retarded?
Excessive avertising?

Do I have White Hydra commercials on TV every commercial break, billboards 100 feet high, and more pages in magazines than their articles themselves?

No! So shut the fuck up already with your stupid opinions - you were the one who I was talking about in my post earlier, except I was too polite to openly mention it. Fuck politeness, and fuck your know-nothing opinions.

[Joel Fagin]

You proved what I said by being a indie-orientated idiot.
You're so against advertisement in all its forms you've completely demonized it and forgotten the benefits and benignity of it.

*laughs* Uh... Maybe you should, you know, read my post? Maybe the relevant section of the tutorial as well. I happily support and defend advertising of webcomics.

Edit: Mind you, I do demonise advertising pretty much everywhere else.

- Joel Fagin

"What the hell have facts got to do with an arguement?" - Cartoon

[Thirdworldvillian]

hehe that was THE best pimp analogy ever used and for all you "moral" people out there that wish to leave their "integrity" intact, this is the NET the WWW guys its a friggin noob eat noob world out there you just gotta get back on the firefox and keep shamelessly advertising your self .
ps- oh and sneaking secret brain-gotomysite-washing propaganda into posts is good to............
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[Godoftarot]

I can't believe I'm actually saying this, but...there's not really anything wrong with "commercial entertainment". If that's what you want to do. People have the tendency to like formulas and the many variations thereof. In fact, very few people can get by being completely original and different; you have to be mighty damn good at it. There really is nothing wrong with things like cliches and whatnot, especially if you make an effort to give them your own personal twist.
Some people here can get a bit snotty at times. They get it in their heads that it's only good and talented if it's artistic and original and you don't have sell it. But it takes some serious finesse to know how to sell what you do. Good advertising takes creativity and intelligence. Playing on what the audience wants is regarded as selling out much of the time, but it takes a keen person to zone in on a target market and not only reel that target in, but expand it and draw in others.
And no matter how pretty the art is, comics and manga are still entertainment. I don't care how pretty it is, if it's boring I won't bother.
I'm all for drawing comics for the fun of it, sure. And cause it's art. But anyone who says they're only doing it because it's art is full of shit. If you didn't want people to read it you wouldn't take all the damn time to put it online.

[Van Douchebag]

*laughs* Uh... Maybe you should, you know, read my post? Maybe the relevant section of the tutorial as well. I happily support and defend advertising of webcomics.

Edit: Mind you, I do demonise advertising pretty much everywhere else.

- Joel Fagin

"What the hell have facts got to do with an arguement?" - Cartoon

Why in hell would I do that?
You can write all the pretty tutorials you want, but facta non verba, buddy. It's like if there was someone writing essays about racial equality in newspapers, but back home was beating up black people on the street.

You can write whatever you want somewhere else, but make for god damn sure your actions in another place, say... this forum, echo what you've written or you'll be branded a hypocrite or liar.

[Van Douchebag]

I'm all for drawing comics for the fun of it, sure. And cause it's art. But anyone who says they're only doing it because it's art is full of shit. If you didn't want people to read it you wouldn't take all the damn time to put it online.

That's something I can agree with you on.

[The Neko]

People in the entertainment industry don't view a lot of things as "art". Family Guy, for example, isn't considered by entertainment execs art at all. There is an art TO it, but for all intensive purposes, it's not. I've been told once (by a fairly reputable person) "You're not an artist. But with the right aspirations, that is a very good thing." However, there has to be a delicate balance. Heavily marketed material often alienates audiences, while things that are too artistic turns them off. Really, it's like two sides of extremes, "sellout" and "indie" and then you have the masses in the center.
Personally, all I care about is that I amuse people. However, in order to accomplish that, I have to promote somehow, so more people can enjoy it. Promoting and "selling out" aren't necessarily interchangeable terms, unless the promotion involves countering your own judgment and tastes for the sake of others.
It's amazing how many people will say "I liked it before it got famous", even though the new content is no different than the old.

[Joel Fagin]

I have no problem with commercial entertainment but I do get very frustrated with the people who think there is no difference between something which is good and something that they like.

I watched I, Robot last night. Great fun. Enjoyed it. Wasn't very good, though. I read 1985 once, as well. Hated it, but it was good.

I hate the fact that commercial entertainment is blindly lauded by the masses for all the wrong reasons.

- Joel Fagin

[Vorticus]

*stuff*

*other stuff*

You know Van sometimes I wonder if your rather explosive reactions to stuff that's not terribly negative leads people here to view you in a bad light. I didn't think Joel was calling you wrong, just pointing stuff out.

[Van Douchebag]

I'm less concerned about how people see me, Vort, than as I am about promoting White Hydra and my other ideas.

I mean, Scott Kurtz is a prick. Mike Krahulik and Jerry Holkins rub off as pricks, too. But look at them and where they are - people care more about the comics than they do about the person themselves.

Hell, I exposed my old archnemesis Dave aka Scribblekid for the snuff loving lolicon artist he is, yet he's lost no readers because of it. Get my drift?

I have no problem with commercial entertainment but I do get very frustrated with the people who think there is no difference between something which is good and something that they like.

I watched I, Robot last night. Great fun. Enjoyed it. Wasn't very good, though. I read 1985 once, as well. Hated it, but it was good.

I hate the fact that commercial entertainment is blindly lauded by the masses for all the wrong reasons.

- Joel Fagin

Since when do people think there is no difference between something which is good and something they like?
Eye of the beholder, man. I don't like rap, but other people do.
I don't follow the "in" crowd, but neither do I put them down for it. They just have different tastes than myself and it, by no means, means they are all sheep.

[Phalanx]

Maybe not in this thread, but in the past people on Keenspace have accused me of pandering.

And there are some who accuse me of being a traitor by moving to Graphic Smash and not staying in Keenspace forever. *shrugs* Do a give a damn? Hell no. I know perfectly well there's not much substance in those accusations. It's not even worth getting angry over them.

No matter what you do, people will talk anyway.

For me, comicking is still at the hobby state. I never had any particular targets, so anything that comes along is a bonus.

Does that mean that I'll say no when opportunity comes knocking just because it's a hobby? No. Why should I?

In such a view, advertising excessively can be alarming. You want the word to get out, but you have to constantly take stock of whether you're undermining your work or not, particularly if you know what you're doing is not for mass consumption. You gave very good advice in your initial post. The reactions from the "indie sellouts" were to be expected, because such tactics don't mesh with what they do. I for one cringe at the prospect of doing any of that for no reason than personal advancement, but that's just me.

What are you? Mentally retarded?
Excessive avertising?

Do I have White Hydra commercials on TV every commercial break, billboards 100 feet high, and more pages in magazines than their articles themselves?

No! So shut the fuck up already with your stupid opinions - you were the one who I was talking about in my post earlier, except I was too polite to openly mention it. Fuck politeness, and fuck your know-nothing opinions.

*groan* Dammit Van! Are you asking to be banned a second time?