Do you have to be born a good artist?

Beyonder_alpha · Post by **Beyonder_alpha** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:26 pm

No, but you'll be able to rap, look at what good results they got with P Diddy and Eminem.

Joel Fagin · Post by **Joel Fagin** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:42 pm

collapse wrote:Okay, sorry to argue some more, but here's another way of looking at it. I'm tone deaf. I can't sing. Will I, as a tone deaf person, ever be able to sing?

Being tone deaf... Well, I don't know. I would expect the ability to hear and distinguish tones to be a learnt skill for most people, and any genetic limitation that interferes with that would be as unusual as not having hands.

However, singing itself is a physical ability, not a creative one (although what you do with it is creative), so genetics can deny you the ability to do it well in the same way that they can deny you the ability to roll your tongue. Short of not having hands, it's difficult for that argument to apply to drawing.

The question then becomes: Can genetics affect the capacity of the mind to learn? (Obviously extreme cases apply but we're talking about the everyman here.)

And the answer, I think, is no. When we are born, we have no instinctive understanding of how our enviroment works, what the limits on their behavoir are or even how our own bodies work. Watch a baby some time and you can see them try to do things but not quite understand how to command their muscles yet. They learn through experience and through trial and error. This is why consistant behavoiral boundaries are so important for a growing child.

And it doesn't stop, either. I think the only reason why the sub-conscious mind would stop learning is if the conscious mind gave up.

None of us could even write when we were born. That's a learnt skill - the holding and manipulation of the pen all the way through to the shapes of the letters. We all learnt that.

You just have to not stop there.

- Joel Fagin

Collapse · Post by **Collapse** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:58 am

Nah, trust me, if you're tone deaf you can't rap either.

It's kind of sad, so many people just write off rap as somebody talking to a beat without really taking the time to listen to it. What they (rappers) do is really difficult, and it takes a lot of imagination. Listen to some of the ways they make things rhyme, and then think if you can do that yourself. And EminEm can sing too (at least decently)

Er, I don't think you can learn to not be tone deaf...

Joel Fagin · Post by **Joel Fagin** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:22 am

collapse wrote:Er, I don't think you can learn to not be tone deaf...

Well, unless it has some sort of physical manifestation - ear doesn't work properly, for example - I can't see any reason why not.

- Joel Fagin

JexKerome · Post by **JexKerome** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:25 am

Indeed, being tone deaf means not being able to sing ever, no matter how much training, since you can't hear the tones you're trying to achieve. Take the case of blind and deaf people who learn to talk by feeling their teacher's throat when they speak. They can learn to replicate the vibrations they feel, and thus eventually learn to talk, but they cannot feel subtle tone or pitch, and thus their inflection sounds odd and singing is out of the question. You CAN rap if you're tone deaf, at least technically, but whether you get good at it is a whole other ball game.

And at the very least, like Forrest Gump said, "if you can't sing well, sing loud".

That's what I do.

Ti-Phil · Post by **Ti-Phil** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:49 am

Hmmm.. I think someone is not born with talent but it can be develloped with time, work and no social life.. ^^; Well, that's more or less what happened to me, I started to draw in english class in 8th grade because it was too boring (plus I was stuck with a bunch of doofus) and slowly but surely my small characters evolved into what I do now.

If I can find one of my old sketch from 8th grade you'll see the difference :p

Collapse · Post by **Collapse** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:38 pm

JexKerome wrote:Indeed, being tone deaf means not being able to sing ever, no matter how much training, since you can't hear the tones you're trying to achieve. Take the case of blind and deaf people who learn to talk by feeling their teacher's throat when they speak. They can learn to replicate the vibrations they feel, and thus eventually learn to talk, but they cannot feel subtle tone or pitch, and thus their inflection sounds odd and singing is out of the question. You CAN rap if you're tone deaf, at least technically, but whether you get good at it is a whole other ball game.

And at the very least, like Forrest Gump said, "if you can't sing well, sing loud".

That's what I do.

*sticks tongue out at Joel*

So maybe there's an art deaf?

AndrewTaylor · Post by **AndrewTaylor** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:28 pm

Ti-Phil wrote:Hmmm.. I think someone is not born with talent but it can be develloped with time, work and no social life.. ^^; Well, that's more or less what happened to me, I started to draw in english class in 8th grade because it was too boring (plus I was stuck with a bunch of doofus) and slowly but surely my small characters evolved into what I do now.

If I can find one of my old sketch from 8th grade you'll see the difference :p

The trouble is people confuse two things. One school of thought says "some people can never draw no matter how much work they put in, other people just have the ability naturally" and another school of thought says "some people can draw naturally but other people can manage if they really work at it", when I think the truth is nearer to "some people can draw well almost from the day they're born, others will never be able to do it, but most of use are stuck in the void in the middle where hard work will help us". I think most people have a predefined "starting point" and "glass ceiling" in most things -- art, computer programming, reading, whatever; hard work and the right training can get you from one to the other but no further. And the bad thing is it's often impossible to know where your limit is until you hit it.

Phact0rri · Post by **Phact0rri** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:46 am

Being able to distinguish tones, pitch and depth are not genetic. and it can be learnt. A common misconception is that people who come into it late might never be able to play.

I've never heard someone not being able to learn to play music, that really wanted to do it. Course it takes years and years of practice.

Collapse · Post by **Collapse** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:08 pm

What's wrong with you people? You're blindly optimistic about everything.

http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/feature ... edeaf.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/disp ... ?id=191200
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art ... ekey=19458

Protectmyballs · Post by **Protectmyballs** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:49 pm

collapse wrote:... What they (rappers) do is really difficult, and it takes a lot of imagination. Listen to some of the ways they make things rhyme, and then think if you can do that yourself...

For instance, rhyming "UGGNNNNNNNN" and "NA NA NA NAAAAAA" or the more suprizingly diffucult "YEAH". Those are real tough to rhyme.

Actually, its a damn shame that the most pathetic rappers are the ones who get on MTV and make millions. There actually exist rappers who can carry a tune, write insightful lyrics that go beyond "i have cash and like tits", and dont rely on big shiny things to grab attention.

Collapse · Post by **Collapse** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:54 pm

protectmyballs wrote:
collapse wrote:... What they (rappers) do is really difficult, and it takes a lot of imagination. Listen to some of the ways they make things rhyme, and then think if you can do that yourself...
For instance, rhyming "UGGNNNNNNNN" and "NA NA NA NAAAAAA" or the more suprizingly diffucult "YEAH". Those are real tough to rhyme.

Actually, its a damn shame that the most pathetic rappers are the ones who get on MTV and make millions. There actually exist rappers who can carry a tune, write insightful lyrics that go beyond "i have cash and like tits", and dont rely on big shiny things to grab attention.

EminEm... he can carry a tune, he's actually got a lot of emotion and feeling in his work. Problem is a lot of people don't like his music because it's "just him complaining about his life".

Well goddamn, isn't that what half of music is? (the other half being people flirting or praising a member of the opposite sex). And there's really a lot more depth and seriousness to the things he talks about... most music about problems is just a guy bitching because his girlfriend left him.

And Em is willing to make fun of himself, and he's quite funny when he does.

Then headed straight back to the Neverland Ranch
With a peanut butter jelly chicken tuna sandwich
And I don't even got to make no god damn sense
I just did a whole song and I didn't say shit

Wp · Post by Wp » Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:00 pm

It's funny how a white guy is a better at something derived from African tribal chants.

Pillywiggin · Post by **Pillywiggin** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:41 pm

wp wrote:It's funny how a white guy is a better at something derived from African tribal chants.

More scarily, hip-hop has become popular in Japan.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-p ... 324409.stm

I really don't think the clothes work that well though.

JexKerome · Post by **JexKerome** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 12:57 am

phactorri wrote:Being able to distinguish tones, pitch and depth are not genetic. and it can be learnt. A common misconception is that people who come into it late might never be able to play.

I've never heard someone not being able to learn to play music, that really wanted to do it. Course it takes years and years of practice.

To distinguish tones, pitch and depth, you do need the proper equipment to detect it, though. Tone deaf people lack the equipment, or rather, their gear lacks the needed "specs".

And as for rap, George Carlin said it best. It is the most sincere form of music. Instead of waxing lyrical about her eyes and smile and the little things, rap says "back that ass up".

Joel Fagin · Post by **Joel Fagin** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:15 am

JexKerome wrote:To distinguish tones, pitch and depth, you do need the proper equipment to detect it, though. Tone deaf people lack the equipment, or rather, their gear lacks the needed "specs".

A physical limitation. If someone can come up with something like that for drawing, I shall concede the point.

Assuming it sounds reasonable.

And if someone pays me.

- Joel Fagin

Jim North · Post by **Jim North** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:17 am

Joel Fagin wrote:A physical limitation. If someone can come up with something like that for drawing, I shall concede the point.

Mental arthritis.

Assuming it sounds reasonable.

Um, no hands?

And if someone pays me.

Damn.

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 7:49 am

phactorri wrote:Being able to distinguish tones, pitch and depth are not genetic. and it can be learnt. A common misconception is that people who come into it late might never be able to play.

I've never heard someone not being able to learn to play music, that really wanted to do it. Course it takes years and years of practice.

I've seen a few people for whom I believe that they could never learn how to carry a tune (for voice). But that's rare, I guess there's a scale of ability where they're on bottom, while anyone not so close to bottom has something to hope for. But there's also a matter of voice colour. I, for one, have an ugly voice when singing. And if you're not Johnny Rotten, that doesn't pass.

EminEm... he can carry a tune, he's actually got a lot of emotion and feeling in his work. Problem is a lot of people don't like his music because it's "just him complaining about his life".

Eminem is either love or hate music. He consciously goes for irritating people, which some like, the others hate, but it is understandable that someone who intentionally tries to irritate, really irritates some people. "He's just complaining about his life" is probably just a snappy answer of people someone bugs about why they don't like Eminem, but the basic reason why people who hate Eminem hate him, is because he wants them to hate him. After all, as much publicity of his comes from people hating him, if not even more.

Protectmyballs · Post by **Protectmyballs** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 8:14 am

collapse wrote:
protectmyballs wrote:
collapse wrote:... What they (rappers) do is really difficult, and it takes a lot of imagination. Listen to some of the ways they make things rhyme, and then think if you can do that yourself...
For instance, rhyming "UGGNNNNNNNN" and "NA NA NA NAAAAAA" or the more suprizingly diffucult "YEAH". Those are real tough to rhyme.

Actually, its a damn shame that the most pathetic rappers are the ones who get on MTV and make millions. There actually exist rappers who can carry a tune, write insightful lyrics that go beyond "i have cash and like tits", and dont rely on big shiny things to grab attention.
EminEm... he can carry a tune, he's actually got a lot of emotion and feeling in his work. Problem is a lot of people don't like his music because it's "just him complaining about his life".

Eminem can indeed carry a tune, and he does indeed have above par writing and what-not. The problem with his music is that he is relying more and more on gimmicks and being goofy than the intense feelings that got him noticed and famous. Same problem The Offspring has (A terrible ending to one of the greatest bands ever). I actually had his first CD, and loved it. Then he did a duet with Elton John, and started being MTV's bitch. And I realized that he might've come from the streets and all that shit, but he's in it for the money and nothing else.

collapse wrote:Well goddamn, isn't that what half of music is? (the other half being people flirting or praising a member of the opposite sex). And there's really a lot more depth and seriousness to the things he talks about... most music about problems is just a guy bitching because his girlfriend left him.

No, it's not. It's half of what MTV has forced upon as being music. There's more to life than rappers who are rich and whiny emo kids who can't find a girl.

collapse wrote:And Em is willing to make fun of himself, and he's quite funny when he does.

Then headed straight back to the Neverland Ranch
With a peanut butter jelly chicken tuna sandwich
And I don't even got to make no god damn sense
I just did a whole song and I didn't say shit

He's funny in the way that Tom Green was funny. Which is a bad thing. That's a pretty insulting lyric actually, he's telling his fans to thier faces that he can shit on them and they better like it.

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 8:21 am

protectmyballs wrote:Same problem The Offspring has (A terrible ending to one of the greatest bands ever). I actually had his first CD, and loved it. Then he did a duet with Elton John, and started being MTV's bitch. And I realized that he might've come from the streets and all that shit, but he's in it for the money and nothing else.

Yes, dammit. When I was in high school, it was a cult group of grunge-oriented rebels-without-a-cause. But then, at one moment every song of theirs turned into "Pretty fly for a white guy" which pretty much ruined the older songs for me too.