Do you have to be born a good artist?

The Neko · Post by **The Neko** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:14 pm

Well, perhaps the problems some people have with reference is that they view the world in symbols, which can cause problems since symbols don't match up with the real world very well. I mean, all those emoticons are symbols of a face without actually BEING a face. Of course, cartooning is based off of this principle of recognition.
Looking at a building, most people when drawing don't see a building, but a big rectangle with small rectangles, rather than viewing it as lines and shades that create the shape of a building. A rectangle and smaller rectangles within are satisfactory enough to be recognized as "building".

"N'est ceci une pipe"

Nyke · Post by **Nyke** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:15 pm

collapse wrote:I want to try an experiment. I've never tried anything like this before, and I've never heard of it being tried.

WIth your eyes closed, try to draw this shape:
Obviously my drawing here is sort of crappy (it's supposed to be smooth and symmetrical), but you get the idea. Using any medium (computer, paper/pencil, whatever) just try to make that shape with your eyes closed.

Please humor me with this, I want to see something.

Btw, this is directed at everyone.

I just got a little carried away. I hope you don't mind.

...okay seriously.

Toxic · Post by **Toxic** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:19 pm

I remember when I started my current comic. I was scared to death because I had never tried drawing people before. It does take a lot of development, and if you read through my archives I'm always tweaking my characters.

Modeling after something is important. If using models when you draw makes it worse...then...stop making it worse? I don't know!

Cope · Post by **Cope** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:22 pm

Thhptptppppt...

Toxic · Post by **Toxic** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:22 pm

[quote="DarkMagician"I just got a little carried away. I hope you don't mind.[/quote]

Oh yeah, mine:

Col · Post by **Col** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:26 pm

Man, I wish my comics could be scanned and put on the web that fast.

Personally collapse, I think your drawings show promise. You were trying different angles, different body poses, and challenging yourself. Thing is, you might be trying things that are too difficult. I liked wp's advice of working on specific parts one by one 'til you improve, and then move on. Also, it honestly doesn't hurt to copy the drawings of other artists. You want realistic? Look for photorealistic drawings. You want something more comic book based? Find some comics with a style that you like, and start drawing from those. I'm not saying trace, of course, but it honestly doesn't hurt. The only thing that can happen that would be bad is if you start to draw exactly like that artist. The point of copying other artist's work is to figure out how they do it. As you go, you find that you pick up traits of how they do things, and eventually, you grow confident enough to start doing your own drawings. What do you think people who draw anime style comics looked at? Certainly not reallife photos (for the most part)!

Obviously this isn't a quick answer, but it's a start. Personally, I was really influenced by the artwork done for Earthworm Jim, and drew the characters from that tons of times. You can now see the influences of that in my work now, but it doesn't overpower it. I took what I saw and learned from those drawings, and made them my own. Trying to draw from real-life is a really tough way to get going, and sometimes it's better to start out a little simpler. Either way, you just have to have patience, and really take whatever steps you can to try to learn.

Oh, and I don't think you can really compare PeppermintAfterLife's old drawings with yours. Too different in terms of style. Same with Bob's and a few others.

As for the whole topic about whether it's born or learned, I say it's a little of both. I'm probably repeating other people here, but some people got an eye for it and others don't. It's probably based off how you were raised, as well as what catches your eye early on in life. For instance, all kids like to draw when they're really young. As they move along, some are drawn towards music, others towards sports, and others towards problem solving. Once they go in that direction, it could be hard to get out of that mindset. From my personal experience, I took piano for eight years, and NEVER managed to move beyond the beginner stage. Why? Because I just couldn't keep a beat, and I couldn't get my fingers to do what the music called for, even after hearing the song. I spent a lot of time on it, but it just didn't come out. At the same time, I wasn't really interested in it, and my interest never grew. Nevertheless, I still can't hold a beat to this day.

Collapse · Post by **Collapse** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:33 pm

Toxic: Wth? You posted a perfect one, and then when I went to comment it was different.

My purpose here was to see if/how basic mental understanding and aptitude towards proportions shows up when drawing with your eyes closed. I thought maybe the people who have very good natural understanding of proportion would be able to draw the shape near perfectly (like Col appears to have done). Doesn't seem to be too much connection though.

Here's how mine turned out on the computer:

I also tried on paper, and all of them ended looking up almost exactly like the one in the bottom left.

The Neko · Post by **The Neko** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:35 pm

A blind contour like that only measures motor skills, not much else...

Terotrous · Post by **Terotrous** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:49 pm

Yeah, this doesn't really seem to prove anything, but whatever.

I also tried drawing the basic shape of Ress's head (it's a somewhat similar shape), and I got this

I'm amazed I got that connector line at the bottom in the right place. Sheer luck.

And no, I don't know why it's white on black. Those were the settings in photopaint when it started for some reason.

Corgan_dane · Post by **Corgan_dane** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:51 pm

Digital War wrote:Or even better!

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000 ... ZZZZZ_.jpg

With 20 more points of articulation!

I already own that, and hadn't thought of using it that way!

Right now, he's my cel phone holder!

Turnsky · Post by **Turnsky** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 10:01 pm

the best examples of my work evolving can be found in my comic..

this was actually made in may of 2003.
same for this:

and now..

http://www.deviantart.com/view/7496058/
http://www.deviantart.com/view/6953607/
http://www.deviantart.com/view/7607297/
http://www.deviantart.com/view/5610721/

note that some of these don't use photoshop filters to accomplish the majority of the pictures.. also, all art requires is practice to get good at it.
bear in mind that in 2000, i could barely draw a stick figure all that well.

Toxic · Post by **Toxic** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 10:24 pm

collapse wrote:Toxic: Wth? You posted a perfect one, and then when I went to comment it was different.

I didn't know we were supposed to have our eyes closed the first time

. I thought that was a little easy...

Derenge · Post by **Derenge** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 11:04 pm

I think I might rant a bit, but I just feel the need to say this:

I hate the idea that genetics are somehow primarily responsible for artistic talent, I flat out hate it. Few things make me angrier that this idea and I think I know the reason. It's the same reason I hate the concept of predestination, if it's true it would render my life and my efforts pointless.

Understand that I don't think overly well of the things I do, what little I have accomplished is nothing in the grand scheme of things. Still, it means a lot to me that I have tried. I have worked on something, I have developed a skill to the point that it becomes recognizable as such.

It has never and will never come easy for me. Period. I have been drawing for as long as I remember, I have spent countless hours working to get better. I can not put a number to the times I have drawn something and seen it to not be good enough. I don't know how many pages of comics I have drawn that will never see the light of day, how many times I've finished inking only to file the page away.

I don't like to hear that somehow this isn't the case. That all people who are any good at drawing or the visual arts were born that way. I know better. When I look at a comic, when I see a drawing I know the work that went into it. I understand the late nights and the hours burned in the making of that work. Not only the time for that piece, but for all that which came before. I've seen the sun come up on an unfinished works and I would sooner stop drawing altogether than say that somehow I didn't have to work for what I have.

If a person wants to be able to draw enough they will. Saying that genetics are at the heart of the matter is not only an insult to those who strive to grow and move on, but is also an escape for those who lack the will to do what is needed to progress.

Maybe there are gifted individuals out there who never had to work to get better. I sure can't name any. For me it's been nothing but a battle the whole way. Nothing in this world is free, we can't expect to be good at anything without really trying. The only thing I have to say to a person who holds the contention that they can't draw is that they should try harder.

Oh, yes. That reminds me. I am sorry that I made the puppy cry.

TheSuburbanLetdown · Post by **TheSuburbanLetdown** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 11:21 pm

I agree with Derenge. I worked damn hard to be able to draw the things I'm drawing now, and I'm still not completely satisfied with what I'm doing. I won't lie; it doesn't suck, but it's not as great as I would like it to be. I have compromised my visual ideas many times simply because I lacked the ability to draw what I had envisioned. But I still try to do it. It may sound lame, but the only way to get better is to keep doing it.

Alaina · Post by **Alaina** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:08 am

OKAY OKAY OKAY:

It you WERE NOT born with artistic talents, then don't bother trying anymore. YOU'LL NEVER BE GOOD. Ever. No matter how much you practice. IT HAS BEEN FOREORDAINED! Because, you know, self-improvement is impossible (Sorry, Derenge).

Like breathing, if you didn't get the hang of it all on your own then you NEVER will. Sorry.

Be an accountant or something. Wait, you don't have a natural talent for math either? Sheesh, what do you have then, people skills??

Don't get your humdingers all wrapped up, I'm just, um, really tired. All-nighters do that to a girl. Oh, and I guess I was kidding, if you didn't already pick that up.

Garasade · Post by **Garasade** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:20 am

An eraser is my best friend.

Chibiartstudios · Post by **Chibiartstudios** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:37 am

Alaina wrote:OKAY OKAY OKAY:

It you WERE NOT born with artistic talents, then don't bother trying anymore. YOU'LL NEVER BE GOOD. Ever. No matter how much you practice. IT HAS BEEN FOREORDAINED! Because, you know, self-improvement is impossible (Sorry, Derenge).

Like breathing, if you didn't get the hang of it all on your own then you NEVER will. Sorry.

Be an accountant or something. Wait, you don't have a natural talent for math either? Sheesh, what do you have then, people skills??

Don't get your humdingers all wrapped up, I'm just, um, really tired. All-nighters do that to a girl. Oh, and I guess I was kidding, if you didn't already pick that up.

But how will you know if you have any tallent in this area unless you give it an honest shot?

Talent is the ability to do something better than the average person could. Talent in art does exist and it is hard to get to the level of, I don't know, Escher. But art is unique in that it can be learned as long as you have the hand-eye coordination to write your own name and are not legaly blind. And even Escher put in ALOT of practice before he drew the things he did.

And no. I have yet to meet an artist that describes learning to draw as "easy".

And one more thing. Collapse. If you havent improved you need to try harder and newer things to draw. Make a goal that you know is just slightly out of reach and go for it. You should also try getting some big poster sised paper and take 10+ hours filling it with something interesting. I do this 4-5 times a year and people have started wanting them for birthday presents (which is a pain because I could shop 10 times while I draw it). Some of my biggest improvement comes from doing these. Regardless you need to atempt harder things. You wont get stronger working out with the 5 pound wieghts forever. I think art is the same way.

Oh yeah! blind contours rock! Even the pros' look messed up. Tape some paper to the desk and draw your hand without looking at the paper AT ALL! The results look hillarious. It's a good technique to learn to LOOK at an item instead of glance at it.

Alaina · Post by **Alaina** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:28 am

chibiartstudios wrote: But how will you know if you have any tallent in this area unless you give it an honest shot?

Alaina wrote:
It you WERE NOT born with artistic talents, then don't bother trying anymore.

You try, you fail, you stop.

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Do you have to be born a good artist?

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