So who is Spot gonna steal next?

Vorticus · Post by **Vorticus** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:55 am

Warren wrote:ALL lawyers are funny. You know, like when you knock them down and stuff.

I prefer throwing them. Just to see you know...

Jackhass · Post by **Jackhass** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:48 pm

"That's why I have nothing against Jim Davis."

He became like, a billionaire writing literally months worth of jokes in succession about a cat not wanting to get out of bed...he's my idol.

Warren · Post by **Warren** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:02 pm

I want Jim Davis to adopt me.

Alun Clewe · Post by **Alun Clewe** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:06 pm

Van Douchebag wrote:
Stephen Henderson-Grady wrote:And that's an example of GOOD character developement? That sounds like something straight out of an episode of a soap opera.
Find me a webcomic character development that beats it.

But actually the example you gave had nothing to do with "character development" at all. That twin-assassin thing is an example of plot development; character development is an entirely different thing. Character development isn't just events that happen; character development is how the characters are changed by those events, what they discover about themselves, what they suppress, how they develop as people, how their personalities, attitudes, and beliefs are affected. The Spiderman-and-the-twin-assassins story may have had character development as well--I haven't read it, so I can't say--but the fact that Spiderman faces twin assassins who may be the children of his dead girlfriend doesn't necessarily mean there was any character development involved. Were the characters any different afterward than they were when the story started?

(Although, to be fair, you didn't initially give that as an example of "character development" anyway; it was Stephen Henderson-Grady who used the term "character development" in reference to it. You gave it as an example of "human drama". Which is related to character development, but not exactly the same thing.)

Most superhero stories nowadays, I think, don't have much character development--not of the major superheroes, anyway--, but that's more by design than because of bad writing. (And note I say "most", not "all"; I'm aware there may be exceptions.) The comic book companies don't want character development, because they don't want to risk changing the characters too much and possibly having them lose their fans. Outside of occasional cosmetic changes (which often get reversed anyway), they want the characters to remain exactly the same so none of their readers desert them. It's the same reason major superheroes so rarely die (and stay dead).

Of course, it could very well be argued that this is a lousy long-term strategy, and that in trying so hard to hold on to their existing fans comic book companies are almost completely failing to get any new fans, which is why today's comic book industry is in the sad state it's in... but that's a topic for another time.

Anyway, the challenge to "find... a webcomic character development that beats it" is a little unfair (even aside from the fact that, as I said, the example you gave really doesn't have anything to do with character development in the first place), because good character development is a long-term thing. You can't just point at a single strip and say "Look! There! Character development!"; properly done, it's a slow process that happens over a long time. I think there are webcomics that have good character development, but you have to read quite a bit of their archives to see it.

(Incidentally, I think most newspaper comics lack character development, for exactly the same reason as comic books: the syndicates don't want to alienate their readers by having the characters actually change. (Some of the more soap-operatic strips like For Better Or For Worse are exceptions.) But that's beside the point...)

Skylark King · Post by **Skylark King** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:33 pm

Alun Clewe wrote:
Most superhero stories nowadays, I think, don't have much character development--not of the major superheroes, anyway--, but that's more by design than because of bad writing. (And note I say "most", not "all"; I'm aware there may be exceptions.) The comic book companies don't want character development, because they don't want to risk changing the characters too much and possibly having them lose their fans. Outside of occasional cosmetic changes (which often get reversed anyway), they want the characters to remain exactly the same so none of their readers desert them. It's the same reason major superheroes so rarely die (and stay dead).

There are only a few examples of superhero comics with consistantly good character development. See Top 10 and Astro City. Specifically Astro City, the whole series is based on character development. That's not to say others don't, just that as superhero books go these stand out. Seriously, if you want to know what character development looks like run, don't walk, to your nearest comic book shop and pick up whatever Astro City books you can find.

Too many people wouldn't know what good character development if it bit them on the ass. Even important events involving the character past are mistken for "and now the character is developed some more." It's sad, many comics could have a great premise, a wonderful story and beautiful art but I won't read 'em because the author doesn't know what character development is. (It's part of the equation that makes you care about the characters you're reading about.)

BloodKnight · Post by **BloodKnight** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:03 am

I've read through 17 pages of ranting and I'm still very confused about something.

What is wrong about being spotted? And what does other services offer that SPOT doesn't?

Warren · Post by **Warren** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:23 am

There actually isn't much wrong with being Spotted. Sometimes you get paid for your work. And allegedly, Keen will try and get you deals in other media. Allegedly.

The only real shortcoming (other than Keen wanting a nice slice of cash if they sell you in other markets) is that you can't set up a mirror site. IF you're spotted Keen has exclusive Internet distribution rights.

That sucks if you use the space as a mirror for your paid webhost.

YarpsDat · Post by **YarpsDat** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:32 am

christwriter wrote:
Joel Fagin wrote:
christwriter wrote:Super Heroes are Mary Sues/Marty Stues in leotards and tights, and I think the discription of a Mary/Marty Sue/Stu starts with the honydew breasts and the washboard abs.
A Mary Sue is an author insert, where the author's character can do no wrong, saves the day regularly and is attractive to whoever the author wants to be attractive to.

War, for example, is a Mary Sue, although not by any means one of the really bad ones.

- Joel Fagin
Sounds like a lot of Super Heroes.

Seriously, My introduction to Mary Sues started last year... mostly here

http://www.nanowrimo.org/viewtopic.php?t=17359

There was a whole litimus test for Mary Sueism there...and I've been guilty of just about everything on that list.

CW

Cool. I didn't know there's a name for this.

BTW, this comic could be named "Mary Sue",
And a certain "secret" agent should be named Stu, Gary Stu.

Jackhass · Post by **Jackhass** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:06 pm

"What is wrong about being spotted?"

Nothing...unless you haven't been spotted despite having a relatively popular comic.

In which case, it's a bum deal and not all it's cracked up to be and nobody needs it and everyone at Keenspot are stupid jerks.

NotoriousMEQ · Post by **NotoriousMEQ** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:57 pm

I don't see the point of having a mirror if you're spotted, especially one you pay for (except to not have any ads), because the main reason Keenspot appeals to me is the superior hosting. Nowadays, it's so very rarely down and is maintained very well.

I don't think keenspot is actively searching for new comics, but with a few ending soon (it's walky) and one on hiatus (rpg world), it sure wouldn't hurt. Also, all their recent comics have been recieved really well and have upped Keenspot's cred by being pretty awesome, so that sets a good precident for them getting more. But since ALL my friends are spotted (including my husband), the best advice I have for anyone who wants on is just keep plugging away at his or her comic and be nice on message boards. It seriously doesn't hurt to submit your comic to the spot, either, even if they don't get around to reviewing the submission for a while. It's not like you're going to stop your comic if you don't get on now, is it?

-Meaghan

Van Douchebag · Post by **Van Douchebag** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:01 pm

Keenspot recruits new comics roughly once every 3-4 monthes, actually.

Warren · Post by **Warren** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:14 pm

NotoriousMEQ wrote:I don't see the point of having a mirror if you're spotted, especially one you pay for...

Had one for years, and have a bit more on it than comics. I'd hate to give up my Gig of cheap webspace.

NotoriousMEQ wrote: But since ALL my friends are spotted (including my husband)...

Surely this can't be true. I'm the only one of my (real life) friends that even has a webcomic....

Ghastly · Post by **Ghastly** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:56 pm

NotoriousMEQ wrote:I don't see the point of having a mirror if you're spotted, especially one you pay for (except to not have any ads), because the main reason Keenspot appeals to me is the superior hosting. Nowadays, it's so very rarely down and is maintained very well.

Actually, although this isn't the "props" thread, I have to give a big thumbs up to Kisai. Keenspace has been completely unrecognizable since the new server came online. My comic has been consistantly up and loads lickety split fast.

The steady hosting was the main reason Spot was so attractive but that's not the case so much so anymore.

I suspect once Webcomics Nation comes online the appeal of being spotted will be greatly diminished since it will be so much easier to be an independent. I know I'm chomping at the bit for many reasons, not the least of which is doubling my webcomic's income.

You tend to get more industry respect as an independent than you do as part of a community.

Still I can see how Spot would still be attractive. You can make some money and there is the possibility of merchandising and print publishing. Granted self merchandising and self publishing is getting cheaper and easier all the time.

Van Douchebag · Post by **Van Douchebag** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:02 pm

The problem I have with Webcomic Nations and people who say it's so great is that you get the headache of having to sort everything out.
On Spot, you give the headache to the senior staff. Then again, it's the same thing on Space too so...

NotoriousMEQ · Post by **NotoriousMEQ** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:45 pm

Warren wrote:Surely this can't be true. I'm the only one of my (real life) friends that even has a webcomic....

No, but it SURE feels that way. Scrubbo, Trout, Aeire... if they'd spotted Joe Nadeau I'd be solid gold!

And I have to admit, space has improved by leaps and bounds since I was last on it. It's a much tighter run ship than it even was back when I actually had seen every single comic on it back in 2000.

I too am waiting for WebcomicsNation, but only because I get it for free. I'm going to have a keen comic, two for pay graphic smash comics, and a free WCN comic or two! I'll have gone absolutely MAD with webcomic power!!!

-Megs

Phalanx · Post by **Phalanx** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:41 pm

NotoriousMEQ wrote:I too am waiting for WebcomicsNation, but only because I get it for free. I'm going to have a keen comic, two for pay graphic smash comics, and a free WCN comic or two! I'll have gone absolutely MAD with webcomic power!!!

-Megs

*grin* I was about to say that too, Megs. I'm still deciding what comic to put on my WCN account. Maybe the alpha version of another comic I have in mind...

But frankly, until WCN comes out, one can't really say anything about how good or bad it is.

K-Dawg · Post by **K-Dawg** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 9:10 am

Darn you people and your free accounts. At first I wasn't really interested in Webcomicnation but after hearing more and more about it, I'm getting more anxious to see it in action.

Warren · Post by **Warren** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 9:23 am

No more free accounts! Aiiieee!

BoxJam · Post by **BoxJam** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:13 pm

Warren wrote:There actually isn't much wrong with being Spotted. Sometimes you get paid for your work. And allegedly, Keen will try and get you deals in other media. Allegedly.

The only real shortcoming (other than Keen wanting a nice slice of cash if they sell you in other markets) is that you can't set up a mirror site. IF you're spotted Keen has exclusive Internet distribution rights.

Maybe quibbling, but:

1) Almost everybody on Keenspot gets paid. The only times since I've been on that some people weren't were when the bandwidth they used cost more than they brought it (and that wasn't because of popularity, it was because of huge comics, byte-wise. Averaging over 100K of transfer for each page view). Now I'm pretty sure every comic is profitable, because of the new bandwidth deal Keenspot has. So everybody gets paid.

2) Keenspot gets *first* exclusive internet publishing rights. I had a deal for a while where a site was rerunning my comics a week late, which I OK'd with the Keenspot brass first. So you could do a delayed mirror site.

Warren · Post by **Warren** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 3:14 pm

BoxJam wrote:2) Keenspot gets *first* exclusive internet publishing rights. I had a deal for a while where a site was rerunning my comics a week late, which I OK'd with the Keenspot brass first. So you could do a delayed mirror site.

OK. Then being 'Spotted would be cool with me. You know, if they were interested.